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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042517 05/07/20 12:30 PM
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My units at the University Hospital are gaining patients and going back to normal. units were down to 6 or 7 patients that normally handle 22 patients. Last month we were at 60% capacity which means the hospital was losing a ton of money every month. We have started elective surgeries again as of last week. Still i am hoping the band survives this. People are really depressed that are musicians I know.


"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Joe Muscara #3042523 05/07/20 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
Louisiana was because of Mardi Gras, which was just as the virus was getting started here in the U.S., but before people really realized it. NYC is simply a crowded area with lots of people who commute there from the tri-state area thus infecting their friends and associates on Long Island, Connecticut, NJ, and the bedroom communities upstate.

Two factors seemed to help California, first was the early lockdown and b) was that they are a car culture and not as densely packed. Or, maybe they are pretty high on that list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density

International travel also hit NYC hard, since we're now finding that there were cases in France in December.

I do wonder why Michigan is up there.

Meanwhile, when will it be safe to hang around with singers?

CA only locked down ONE WEEK before NY so I'm not buying that as a significant factor, but I DO believe that car culture vs subways/trains/cabs/etc played a huge part, which is why I was dumbfounded that only last week, NYC only now started shutting the subway down a couple hours a day to clean and disinfect. Baffling.

2 other things: Climate and outdoors.

There is mounting research suggesting less spread in warmer climates, shorter life of the virus when exposed to the UV light from the sun, less spread in open areas, not to mention the fact that our immune systems tend to be weakened when locked indoors without proper diet, exercise, and even regular exposure to things like viruses and bacterial, which is how our immune systems stay strong...building antibodies through exposure. Governor Cuomo announced yesterday that 2/3 of all new cases are people who were staying at home.

Everybody is well aware that viruses like cold and flu spread during the cold winter months when everybody is spending more time indoors. This is no different in that regard, in that it is a virus and spreads the same way. From day one I thought a stay at home order seemed counter intuitive. Not criticizing social distancing, avoiding groups, or many of the other measures, just the idea of closing parks and beaches and making people stay locked up at home.

As for MI, don't forget that Detroit is an international travel hub and climate in that state has been colder, not to mention strange rules like state residents can't go to their lake house, but an out of state resident can. So you can't leave a densely populated area to distance yourself if you are a resident, but somebody from out of state who may be bringing the virus in with them, can come in all day long to go to their lake house.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042534 05/07/20 02:44 PM
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In my own calculations about how safe is it to gig, I keep coming back to the idea that the people who come to the gig will probably include folks who take the fewest precautions, and therefore are most likely to be spreaders. For a small gig I might have a room of 30 people and maybe 20 of them are wearing masks and obeying social distancing, another 9 are sorta kinda doing that, but then there's one dude who's stumbling around bumping into people and shouting in my ear to request a song. And you know he's probably behaving that way not just on that day, but all the time. In the places I play, I can totally see that happening because my music usually brings out some of life's losers.

I've always had a fondness for life's losers. I still do, just not sure I want to be physically close to them.

So we can talk about averages and trends all we want, but what I fear is that the kind of gigs I was playing 3 months ago will be much more dangerous than "normal" everyday life.

As I posted above, I'll be retraining my sights, maybe focusing on solo or duo restaurant gigs, places where dancing and heavy drinking are not expected.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3042535 05/07/20 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
but then there's one dude who's stumbling around bumping into people, and shouting in your ear while you're playing to request a song. And you know he's probably behaving that way not just on that day, but all the time.

Think of it this way: you finally have a justifiable, possibly legally defensible reason to wind up and kick him in the teeth. Isn't that worth the risk?


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042541 05/07/20 03:28 PM
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I can't see how the restaurant gig I had could be made safe for me unless the piano area I play was encased in plastic. People walk in front of the console piano. Tip jar on top.
I don't think sane people will be coming out to eat in an enclosed space til a good treatment drug is out. The political election year mantra seems to be die for the economy.
Live and let die. yeah right

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
J. Dan #3042544 05/07/20 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
CA only locked down ONE WEEK before NY so I'm not buying that as a significant factor

Seems like small differences in timing can make a big difference in results.

Before the lockdowns, numbers were doubling every 2-3 days, so a week could easily be time for a factor of ten increase in infections.

From a recent New Yorker article comparing New York to Seattle, "Tom Frieden, the former C.D.C. director, has estimated that, if New York had started implementing stay-at-home orders ten days earlier than it did, it might have reduced COVID-19 deaths by fifty to eighty per cent." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...ientists-take-the-lead-new-yorks-did-not

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Adan #3042659 05/08/20 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
In my own calculations about how safe is it to gig, I keep coming back to the idea that the people who come to the gig will probably include folks who take the fewest precautions, and therefore are most likely to be spreaders....but then there's one dude who's stumbling around bumping into people and shouting in my ear to request a song.
My concern, as well. The upper limit to a “safe” gig will be established by the person who behaves in the least-safe manner.

We still have a gig on the books for mid-June that might work. It’s a “beach party” at a lake in an upscale neighborhood, and we’ve played the gig in previous years. The band sets up under a decent-sized pavilion on top of a hill, so we can socially distance among ourselves. The neighborhood folks sit on lawn chairs, blankets, and picnic tables on the beach and grassy area down by the lake. The attendees are a good 200 feet away from us and have to trudge up the hill to get near us. For “comfort breaks” I’ve previously used the facilities at a semi-nearby clubhouse but there are some large bushes, evergreens, trees, etc., near the stage which could work for that purpose.

Returning to Adan’s post, there is one self-entitled drunk who always attends the party and tries to get at the band and has stumbled/sloshed around on stage. We have sort of put up with him at previous gigs, but if I decide to play (I’m still on the fence) my tolerance for this asshole will be solidly tested.


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042672 05/08/20 02:56 PM
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My checklist then would be:

- must be outdoors, I always have my fan and hopefully a favorable breeze...have to know what the layout is and who would be around me and how close as well.

- can i load in and set up, and tear down and load out without getting near anyone

- is the "stage" big enough so that I can get far "enough" away from other band members and in a favorable direction (which favors me over them to be sure!)

- is it difficult for drunks and/or oblivious people to get near the band (some places I'm on the edge of an area and people can simply walk up to me. Not gonna fly...)

- where are the darn bathrooms and how would you get to them (or have a plan to pee in your car if it's nearby)

That's a pretty difficult set of requirements to meet. I'm the only one in our 5-member band that has even ONE of these, let alone all of them, and that is also a big factor in my decision. I'm probably the only one who would be wiping things down and using hand sanitizer.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/08/20 02:57 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042681 05/08/20 04:39 PM
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Maybe time to bring back TV shows like "In Concert" only do them as On Demand and maybe a new concept in virtual clubs that livestream music for a monthly fee. People have big screen TV and high end sound put it to good use for music. Have listening parties with friends and best part not a bunch of asshats holding up smartphones trying to record everything.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042687 05/08/20 04:58 PM
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Two things I've decided for myself, and that I will make excruciatingly clear to anyone who wants to hire me for gigs moving forward: 1) The only way I'll take a gig is if I can be absolutely guaranteed that the venue is observing common-sense safety precautions, the specific details of which will be spelled out on a per-gig basis. 2) If I get there and it turns out said precautions are NOT being observed, I will first get video documentation of said lack of observance, and then get right back in my car and head home, and whoever booked me will still be on the hook for 100% of the $$ we agreed on. If they don't want to pay up, I will call them out from the friggin' rooftops and shame the hell out of them all over social media.

Will this decrease the number of gigs I'm likely to get? Yup. Am I good with that? Yup.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042693 05/08/20 05:11 PM
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I recently watched an episode of Mad Money with Jim Cramer and he discussed this from the angle of owning two restaurants - which he does - both in NYC and both closed for now.

He used standards in place in Tennessee to make his point. If you must reduce the capacity of your venue by having fewer tables spread farther apart, fewer (if any) seats at the bar, lower maximum capacities, etc. to protect people from themselves - then re-opening your restaurant is a sure-fire way to go out of business in short order.

Most of the places I used to gig were hand to mouth, month to month or they were doing well because they could pack a crowd in the building and sell lots of drinks and/or food.

It is a Peak Hours pay for Weak Hours deal.
The size of your facility will not magically grow because you need a "safe" capacity to generate enough income.
Pack them in or pack it up.

Until there is a proven, effective vaccine available, we will not be getting back to "normal." It is possible we will never get back to "normal", certainly many establishments will not make it to the other end of this situation. Sorry for the bummer post but it seems pretty real world to me. Cheers, Kuru


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
KuruPrionz #3042709 05/08/20 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
If you must reduce the capacity of your venue by having fewer tables spread farther apart, fewer (if any) seats at the bar, lower maximum capacities, etc. to protect people from themselves - then re-opening your restaurant is a sure-fire way to go out of business in short order. . . . Most of the places I used to gig were hand to mouth, month to month or they were doing well because they could pack a crowd in the building and sell lots of drinks and/or food. . . . Pack them in or pack it up.
I've definitely been considering this about a lot of the venues I play as well (though I've more than once joked about how grateful I'd be to play a show to 25% capacity, as I've certainly played to less...). I get the sense that one of the reasons certain folks in leadership positions are still pushing to reopen "for the economy" is so that they're not on the hook when the businesses in their jurisdictions struggle to survive; it's something you can write off as "the owners couldn't hack it" rather than "the state is responsible for maintaining standards that serve the health of the community." I want to have places to play, but not as a way to offload getting sick and dying into MY problem instead of a collective problem.

I was watching an interview with comedian Patton Oswalt the other day, and he talked about how when the "comedy boom" ended in the late 80s/early 90s, and a lot of the very active clubs from the 80s shut down, many comedians decided to start their own rooms and host their own open mics in any space that would take them. Live music has a lot more logistics and gear to be concerned with than standup comedy, but I'm trying to approach the uncertain future with that mindset. Since I work in higher ed, there's a lot of talk about "blended" learning environments during the transition months, with some smaller, less frequent face-to-face contact with wider berths and smaller classes, complemented by online/asynchronous work. If we get to a point where it's safe to get together with four or five bandmates and maybe a small invited audience of friends, then combine that with the livestreaming skills we've all been developing out of necessity, that would relieve some of the isolation and tension of not performing together, without having to go full tilt "everyone haul your gear into the packed bar with no boundaries between the performers and patrons and hope for the best."

But I think making testing widely available is a linchpin for safety in any of these scenarios; my county in central New York State is doing pretty well, but it seems like it's still very hard to get tested in the United States compared to other countries.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042713 05/08/20 06:28 PM
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Taking a phrase from another issue and changing it for current world Are you dying to work or working to die, if you work involve being around a lot of people especially any sort of retail or food service. It really is a Catch-22 going back to work to deal with personal and countries economic health or staying in place with limited work by delivery and food service industries for the health of the people. You can see this Catch-22 being address by different countries deciding on whether to help their citizens or help their economy. Some are saying this is why there is big government to step in and help the people in times of crisis and we'll worried about the the cost and getting economy back together after the crisis. Others the big government is only concerned with the economy and view citizens dying as a cost of doing business. Then some countries trying to walk a tightrope trying to do both.

This pandemic is pulling the curtain back and exposing the real economic condition of countries around the globe and how different countries value their citizens. The aftermath of this crisis is going to be a very different world and who is viewed as global leaders.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042719 05/08/20 07:01 PM
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A vaccine is the only thing that will rescue our multi-billion dollar tourism industry – so I doubt there will be any significant gigs anyway – but right now I feel that even if some of these opportunities came back sooner I wouldn't be interested.

After all, it's only music and I wonder who I'm trying to impress for a couple hundred bucks anyway.

I'll wait for the all-clear.


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
drawback #3042721 05/08/20 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by drawback
A vaccine is the only thing that will rescue our multi-billion dollar tourism industry – so I doubt there will be any significant gigs anyway – but right now I feel that even if some of these opportunities came back sooner I wouldn't be interested.

After all, it's only music and I wonder who I'm trying to impress for a couple hundred bucks anyway.

I'll wait for the all-clear.
Just a bit south of you in the states and on the mainland.

We've had quite a few outdoor gigs in summer, promotions for a Harley Davidson dealer, music festivals, private parties etc.
I know some of those are gone this summer but we may still have one or two on the books, you?

I'm totally with you on the risk/reward equation. It is NOT worth it right now!!! Cheers, Kuru


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042723 05/08/20 07:20 PM
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Alot of young bands that couldnt break into some bigger clubs before, will now get a chance to fill a void or two. And 20 yrs old already dont care about health as evidenced by the risky behavior they can be known for so a virus will be of no concern for them. If you wait too long you could find your scene is gone and you've been forcibly retired. Besides, the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home. Being in is worse than being out.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
KuruPrionz #3042727 05/08/20 07:38 PM
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I watch Cramer every day as well. In addition to what you wrote he also said the bar part of any establishment is closed because nobody wants to deal with unruly drunks. That's really the last nail in the coffin of restaurant/bar gigs. Jon Taffer basically says the same thing.

Overall I'm still fairly optimistic about how this thing will roll out as far as restarting the economy, getting people back to work, being able to go to parks and beaches. But that has nothing to do with gigs we're talking about. I keep pushing back the date for gigging. I have several bookings for the Christmas and New Years time. Not only do I not know if they're still on, I also don't know if I'm interested is doing them anyway. NYE especially. It s total cramped zoo in a bar on Catalina Island with people standing right next to me. Another annual gig on the island is a few days before NYE in a beautiful house overlooking Avalon. The bad news for that is it's in her living room with a nice old tall upright next to the wall and the guests are also right on top of me. Right now there's no way in hell I would consider such a gig and considering the lady of the house and most of her guests are in their 60's and 70's she won't have that party this year unless she and her friends are comfortable with it just like all of us think here. Now that I've writing this out and thinking about it, who am I kidding, those gigs are gone. Same for several July 4th gigs too. Everything is gone until further notice.

Bob


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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jr. Deluxe #3042818 05/09/20 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jr. Deluxe
Alot of young bands that couldnt break into some bigger clubs before, will now get a chance to fill a void or two. And 20 yrs old already dont care about health as evidenced by the risky behavior they can be known for so a virus will be of no concern for them. If you wait too long you could find your scene is gone and you've been forcibly retired. Besides, the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home. Being in is worse than being out.

I saw that quote as well...I don't know how someone who is quarantined at home could catch a disease unless
1) it's airborne and in the central air system that is so many buildings in NYC
2) they aren't quarantined fully...meaning they went out to get their mail in a common area, people came to deliver stuff etc and gave it to them, etc
3) They already had it from before they quarantined....
4) Not sure how accurate the statement is in the first place, what did he base that on?

People sequestered at home shouldn't be getting sick, they have to be getting exposed. The virus isn't magical.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jr. Deluxe #3042833 05/09/20 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Jr. Deluxe
the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home. Being in is worse than being out.


It's not better to be out. The 66% were not "quaranteed" -- they were just "staying at home". The source of infection was most likely visitors or from surfaces of things being brought into their homes. Cuomo said the survey results were 'surprising' but showed people were not making the right personal choices even when at home.

Last edited by Cabo; 05/09/20 03:32 PM.

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042861 05/09/20 06:05 PM
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The more I think about it, the more certain I am that there will be no live performances in venues other than solo or duo acts in outdoor venues for the foreseeable future. Our careers as live performers are probably over. I'm grateful that i have so many memories of cool and even life-changing gigs. But that's over.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042872 05/09/20 07:43 PM
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I see the immediate future yes solo, duo, and trio if enough space gigs will be bulk of gigs, but heading down the road medical science will get a handle on this virus like it has other in the past and people will be able to crowd around bars and stages again. The big difference with this virus is it hit so fast and spread equally as fast that it affected the whole world at once. To me the big problem is trying to rush back to how things were too fast. People aren't looking at the past pandemics and how long they lasted and even those the negative when some tried to get back to normal too fast. It's going to take a lot on the part of both people and governments to accept this is going to take awhile and makes adjustments to benefit all and get thru it and wait for science to do it's thing.

Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042894 05/09/20 09:42 PM
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How optimistic are people that when the next one hits, "we" will have learned anything? I'm not very. Collectively the US at least hasn't handled this well, at all. Freedom protests, it's right out of Monty Python. Every year that goes by "we" get more anti-science and more into pseudo-science. Just look at that "plandemic" garbage.

Unfortunately the chances of more of these happening keep increasing. Humans are spreading into the environments where the host animals live, and climate change doesn't help at all.

I agree that the trend will be for smaller acts. Tracks will be used more than ever now, as there will be a lot of bands like mine where at least one member won't want to play while the others do. Just do the karaoke thing and presto, a "band".

Last edited by Stokely; 05/09/20 09:43 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Jr. Deluxe #3042897 05/09/20 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jr. Deluxe
Besides, the Gov of New York said yesterday in a televised news conference that 66% of the cases that the hospital reported were infected while quarantined at home.

I tried really hard to find the source for that, and as far as I can tell there's no released report. All sources just refer back to the press conference. So all we have is Cuomo talking briefly over one slide: https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/po...-cuomo-press-conference-coronavirus.html

There's nothing about "quarantined". It's just a slide that says "source of admission", with the choices being "Assisted Living", "Congregate" (I believe this is other sorts of group housing), "Home", "Homeless", "Jail/Prison", "Nursing Home", and "Other".

So I think it's literally just asking hospitals where their COVID-19 patients came from when they were admitted. Unsurprisingly, most of them came from homes.

This says nothing about whether they or others in their household were observing social distancing.

They could be essential workers or their family, for example.

Last edited by bfields; 05/09/20 10:04 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
bfields #3042901 05/09/20 10:35 PM
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Very good catch there. Unfortunately the headlines and stories being run didn't go into as much depth as you did, the impression for the reader was that people were getting sick at home. Just another reminder that it's on all of us to sort through fake or misleading news, and that a lot of news articles are actually reporting on someone else's reporting, or taking a bit of a press conference out of context.

Last edited by Stokely; 05/09/20 10:36 PM.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042905 05/09/20 10:48 PM
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I think things will differ regionally. Seems like from what I hear on here anyway, that live music was practically a thing of the past on the coasts anyway. Here in the Midwest it's been strong and people are really itching for it. It may not return to places like NYC and L.A., but I'm sure it'll bounce back around here. Technically concerts can resume next week and I'm already seeing bands start to promote gigs as they start to get book. One band that I've filled in with before has an outdoor concert coming up next weekend. I've played that one before and there were probably a few thousand people there. Should be interesting to see how many show up for this one so soon coming out of stay-at-home orders for the state (my area is still under an order).


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
KuruPrionz #3042945 05/10/20 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
....If you must reduce the capacity of your venue by having fewer tables spread farther apart, fewer (if any) seats at the bar, lower maximum capacities, etc. to protect people from themselves - then re-opening your restaurant is a sure-fire way to go out of business in short order.

Most of the places I used to gig were hand to mouth, month to month or they were doing well because they could pack a crowd in the building and sell lots of drinks and/or food.

It is a Peak Hours pay for Weak Hours deal.
The size of your facility will not magically grow because you need a "safe" capacity to generate enough income.
Pack them in or pack it up....
This is consistent with what the manager of a large club here in Northwest Indiana advised one of my bandmates. He said that he can’t be profitable operating at 50% or 75% capacity so he is going to remain closed until “Phase 5” (mid-July) of our state’s re-opening plan, at which time the state is projected to be fully open.


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."
- George Bernard Shaw
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
Moonglow #3042947 05/10/20 04:21 AM
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It will come back in waves washing over different geographies at different times, with possibly a big wave covering everything next fall/winter. Each governmental jurisdiction will have its own criteria for when a wave gets bad enough to close some activities again. Music venues, being both high exposure and non-essential, will always be among the first to close. Some of use will be shut out of gigs while others are picking up, guaranteeing we'll have something to chat about for at least the next year. I'm trying to imagine how tough this will be for touring acts. Which ones are resilient enough to take the financial risk? What will promotors do, buy Covid insurance?


Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Subsequent 37, Roland VR09, Yamaha P121
Traveling: Yamaha MX49, Reface CP and CS
Home: Vintage Vibe 64
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
J. Dan #3042949 05/10/20 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
I think things will differ regionally. Seems like from what I hear on here anyway, that live music was practically a thing of the past on the coasts anyway
From what I've heard online, everyone between the coasts is either in jail or a redneck product of incestuous immigrants from Viking territory.
Jesus Christ, I've never heard of a more misinformed statement than live music being a thing of the past on the coasts smile Clearly hasn't been out of the St. Louis area in quite a while.

Last edited by JazzPiano88; 05/10/20 04:32 AM.

J a z z P i a n o 8 8

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Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
JazzPiano88 #3042952 05/10/20 04:33 AM
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we need to take a deep breath here


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Issues re: post-quarantine music venues
JazzPiano88 #3042971 05/10/20 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JazzPiano88
Originally Posted by J. Dead
I think things will differ regionally. Seems like from what I hear on here anyway, that live music was practically a thing of the past on the coasts anyway
From what I've heard online, everyone between the coasts is either in jail or a redneck product of incestuous immigrants from Viking territory.
Jesus Christ, I've never heard of a more misinformed statement than live music being a thing of the past on the coasts smile Clearly hasn't been out of the St. Louis area in quite a while.

Just going by what has regularly been reported on here that gigs dried up in favor of DJ's and nobody wants to see bands. When I said the scene was good around here, the response was that it's because we're behind the times and it will catch up with us. So if I'm misinformed, this was the source.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
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