The Neon Vines Thread 2.0

[Mighty Motif Max]

Hi everyone,

 

Let"s try this again. Here are some better videos from Neon Vines" channel. Start from scratch with these and form your opinions based more on them, as they represent a better variety of her skills. She plays guitar, keys, and drums in addition to the electronic setup and singing.

 

Here"s an original. You can see a lot more of the multitasking here.

 

[video:youtube]

 

'Beat It' cover. ROLI keyboard solo at the end. Pitch correction on the voice, yes. Kind of hard to explain what she"s doing in this one, but as above, everything seems to be triggered live. Not all parts independently played live, but the timing has to be right to get it all to play together. Looping.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Here she is in one of Andrew Huang"s videos. Entertaining overall and it"s fun to watch the various producers and their reactions. Note she has a much nicer-looking setup here aesthetics wise. I think the sheet backdrop is more for giving a 'casual' feel to the other videos.

 

[video:youtube]

Nice singing and pleasant guitar.

[video:youtube]

 

Keyboard and drums (bass too?).

[video:youtube]

 

Sweetwater also had her demo ROLI gear.

[video:youtube]

 

 

The electronic songs are a lot trickier than you would think. She is triggering one-shot samples, playing parts on different control surfaces, recording loops, triggering multiple sequences, playing some keys parts, and singing live. I"m sure there"s a lot of prep that goes into making this work. It"s pretty much all live. The reason the vocal levels stay even is due to Waves Vocal Rider, which is a plugin that automatically automates your signal to a consistent level, which you set before hand. Amazing tool for live work.

 

It"s more difficult than it looks. For one, it"s not really the same as playing a regular instrument on time. Loops are usually tempo-locked and they keep playing once you"ve hit the button, plus it"s a bunch of different things keeping in sync rather than one or two play buttons. Percussion loops, bass loops, synth loops, all independently triggered. I used to think this stuff was a joke until I tried doing it myself. It is a nightmare. Add that to the singing, live playing on the ROLI boards, live recording of loops and layering, triggering one-shot samples, and playing melodic parts on pad controllers, it"s quite a challenge.

 

If you ever get the chance to visit a Guitar Center again, there"s usually a section with some pad controllers and computers, set up kind of like what Neon Vines is doing. Try and mess around with it and see what a mess you can make accidentally!

 

For anyone interested in some of what she does, what she uses, and how it is used, I found an ZZsounds article from last year. https://blog.zzounds.com/2019/08/16/neon-vines-music-gear-picks/

 

 

Overall I enjoy her channel and various things and playing/performing techniques. Singing is nice too, especially in the earlier videos with less processing.

[ElmerJFudd]

The bedroom producer scene is really a thing. It"s been growing as fast as developers can come up with controllers and plugins. Places like clyp.it and soundcloud.com allows them to build a community of fellow producers and fans, to give and receive feedback and comments listening in real time. This often inspires collaboration and without a doubt, revision and changes in direction. They love being 100% in control of the music - taking pride in having completed projects 100% on their own at home without anyone"s help. This approach has been driving the sound of popular music (especially in the electronic pop arena) and some break out artists like Neon Vines who also do how to YouTube videos will inspire and drive this kind of music making for years to come. The focus is on knowledge of music and technology as opposed to virtuosic instrumental playing. With the help of technology they can do a lot with only basic knowledge of melody, harmony and the other elements of music.

[MAJUSCULE]

I can't say I'm a huge fan, but you gotta respect the hustle. And she is hustling across multiple planes of the music industry and social media.

[ElmerJFudd]

I can't say I'm a huge fan, but you gotta respect the hustle. And she is hustling across multiple planes of the music industry and social media.

 

For sure. And if the tech is what she loves - the endorsements are flying in from roli, ableton, Novation and the like I"m certain.

[MAJUSCULE]

Yeah, she's in the Jordan Rudess line of endorsement enthusiasm. Who can blame them? I'm taking all the free gear I can get (which so far is none).

[ManInTheBox]

She"s awfully talented. I can"t imagine some publishing company can"t figure out how to market that.

[EricBarker]

She"s awfully talented. I can"t imagine some publishing company can"t figure out how to market that.

I suspect she's considered it and decided against it. She's gotten big enough as it is, why not cut out the middle-man? She's featured in a large selection of all the controller and plugin commercials already. I'm sure she's got a consultant, but from what it seems, she's started out small and pretty much just made it work commercially. She's kind of a new breed too, I can't really figure it out. She's not selling music to my knowledge, I've never heard her pushing her albums or singles, but she's made a big enough presence for herself, that she's a professional endorser, that's it.

 

No secret that many big-time musicians make more money in endorsement than even hit singles, however, they wouldn't BE professional endorsers without their hit records. Jordan Rudess wouldn't be on the cover of every magazine if he wasn't in Dream Theater (was he ever featured while he was in the Dixie Dregs?). Yet this woman somehow managed to put the horse before the carriage and fly! Hard not to be impressed. The most curious thing is: she's not just a "bro" either. I would have imagined an endorser in her field would be writing total prog stuff the largely male-dominated scene would lap up, but her songs is more the kind of thing women dig, I bet she's inspiring a lot of young girls out there, which is fantastic! Her whole style is very female-centric, not just an image that us guys think women should be (IMO). She's not Grimes tho, her material isn't jaw-droppingly weird or unique, but it's solid and her chops have chops!

[Adan]

I'm warming up to her, and appreciating her talent more.

 

It's unfortunate that I saw How Deep is Your Love first, because imo it's just a weak song. And if I'm being honest I probably couldn't get over my disappointment that she wasn't covering the Bee Gees.

 

Waves Vocal Rider just freaks me out. I miss the vocal imperfections when they're not there.

[ElmerJFudd]

I doubt that in popular music at the moment, that there is anyone not being auto-tuned (all the way to where it's obvious or subtle to where you don't notice unless you're listening for it) . Everything also seems to be created at a specific tempo and quantized to the grid as well - even if groove quantize is used. Imperfection is out of style.

[MAJUSCULE]

Imperfection is an aesthetic to be used like any other vibe or colour an artist or producer might be looking for. The expected standard is perfection, mistakes are either deadly sins or deliberate creative decisions (the mistakes probably aren't deliberate but the decision to keep any in is).

[EscapeRocks]

I took the time and listened to all these.

I stand by my assessment in the first thread;

 

She's talented. She's doing her own thing. Seems to market it well. Good for her. I really do think it's good to see young people going for it.

 

Subjectively, I still don't like the music/style of music. And it's not a "get off my lawn" thing.

[Adan]

As she's using it, Waves Vocal Rider is not just ironing out imperfections, it's also erasing natural variations in volume and tone.

 

A few days ago I watched Once Were Brothers, which of course set me off on yet another Band re-appreciation binge. To go from that to Neon Vines is a bit jarring to say the least.

[Outkaster]

I took the time and listened to all these.

I stand by my assessment in the first thread;

 

She's talented. She's doing her own thing. Seems to market it well. Good for her. I really do think it's good to see young people going for it.

 

Subjectively, I still don't like the music/style of music. And it's not a "get off my lawn" thing.

 

I agree.

[Bobadohshe]

I can't say I'm a huge fan, but you gotta respect the hustle.

 

I took the time and listened to all these.

I stand by my assessment in the first thread;

 

She's talented. She's doing her own thing. Seems to market it well. Good for her. I really do think it's good to see young people going for it.

 

Subjectively, I still don't like the music/style of music. And it's not a "get off my lawn" thing.

 

I'm with you guys 100%. Thanks to the OP for posting.

[Joe Muscara]

I kind of agree, not exactly my thing, but depending on the tune, I might dig it more or less, y'know?

 

That being said, I would love to have the perspective of someone like that as a member here.

[wd8dky]

There is another act on YouTube called "Hannie" (Hanna and Annie). The music is similar to Vines, and it's loop-based. They even did a couple of tutorials showing how they set up their looping system. They seem like pleasant young ladies. I believe there is a lot of talent involved to pull all that off, live, even though they're using instruments and techniques we may not subscribe to. More power to them.

[EricBarker]

I doubt that in popular music at the moment, that there is anyone not being auto-tuned (all the way to where it's obvious or subtle to where you don't notice unless you're listening for it) . Everything also seems to be created at a specific tempo and quantized to the grid as well - even if groove quantize is used. Imperfection is out of style.

Not sure this qualifies as "Popular Music", but I'm pretty sure that Iron Maiden is 100% not using any auto-tune. Bruce sounds amazing for his age, or any age for that matter, but the last few albums he's been walking that fine line between "aesthetically pleasing imperfection" and pitchiness. I'm trusting they and producer Kevin Sherley's aesthetic choice to leave it raw. After all, Final Frontier won a grammy. These aren't mistakes, they're choices. When you get to that level, there are no mistakes, there are just willful accidents: a choice of how much to fret the deals.

 

There's always been a battle between technical perfection and raw-ness. We can point to part of the younger generation and say they're too robotic and "perfect", and then another set that are rustic hipsters that almost over-emphasize imperfection. I don't really think it's generational. Back in the 70s it was the same arguments between multi tracking and live-to-tape. The technology has allowed perfection to be easier and more extreme, but this is nothing new.

[ElmerJFudd]

I doubt that in popular music at the moment, that there is anyone not being auto-tuned (all the way to where it's obvious or subtle to where you don't notice unless you're listening for it) . Everything also seems to be created at a specific tempo and quantized to the grid as well - even if groove quantize is used. Imperfection is out of style.

Not sure this qualifies as "Popular Music", but I'm pretty sure that Iron Maiden is 100% not using any auto-tune. Bruce sounds amazing for his age, or any age for that matter, but the last few albums he's been walking that fine line between "aesthetically pleasing imperfection" and pitchiness. I'm trusting they and producer Kevin Sherley's aesthetic choice to leave it raw. After all, Final Frontier won a grammy. These aren't mistakes, they're choices. When you get to that level, there are no mistakes, there are just willful accidents: a choice of how much to fret the deals.

 

There's always been a battle between technical perfection and raw-ness. We can point to part of the younger generation and say they're too robotic and "perfect", and then another set that are rustic hipsters that almost over-emphasize imperfection. I don't really think it's generational. Back in the 70s it was the same arguments between multi tracking and live-to-tape. The technology has allowed perfection to be easier and more extreme, but this is nothing new.

 

No, not Iron Maiden or anything like it... and a thousand other acts that might come up never entered my mind when making that statement. I was thinking...

https://www.billboard.com/charts/hot-100

 

not for better or worse, just a commentary on music as fashion and what is in style. of course, making something that connects with people is a game of what to clean up and what to leave alone. however, generally speaking - tech that perfects rhythms and pitch are in style.

[ElmerJFudd]

Just stumbled on this one. Haven"t watched it yet.

 

[video:youtube]

[Outkaster]

There is 8 minutes I will never get back.

[Stephen Fortner]

I like her quite a bit, and the tune in the OP is undeniably infectious. (Sorry, I guess that's not a complimentary word at this moment.) In light of Anderton's post about music journalism in the SSS forum, she also depresses me a bit. A video like this will do more to educate and inspire younger people about a product (in this case Waves' OVOX plug-in) than will a hundred old-school reviews written by guys like me. And +1 on the inspiring young girls and non-bro thing. She fully knows her shit and I'm guessing doesn't take any. Comparisons to classic rock seem apples-and-oranges to me. I like Iron Maiden, and Black Sabbath, and the Dan, and the Doobies, and Dream Theater, and ELP, and Tower of Power, and Neon Vines as well. However well I can play keyboards, I would be laughably inept at doing what she does. It's funny. I'm less "get off my lawn" than I was ten years ago. I'm more like, hang out on my lawn if you want, just at least six feet away and pick up your beer cans.

[ElmerJFudd]

There is 8 minutes I will never get back.

I watched it finally. He's all over the place. I'm guessing the quarantine and being denied upload to youtube ruined his day.

but, i get his point about how tastes and expectations in music change with changes in technology.

[ElmerJFudd]

I like her quite a bit, and the tune in the OP is undeniably infectious. (Sorry, I guess that's not a complimentary word at this moment.) In light of Anderton's post about music journalism in the SSS forum, she also depresses me a bit. A video like this will do more to educate and inspire younger people about a product (in this case Waves' OVOX plug-in) than will a hundred old-school reviews written by guys like me. And +1 on the inspiring young girls and non-bro thing. She fully knows her shit and I'm guessing doesn't take any. Comparisons to classic rock seem apples-and-oranges to me. I like Iron Maiden, and Black Sabbath, and the Dan, and the Doobies, and Dream Theater, and ELP, and Tower of Power, and Neon Vines as well. However well I can play keyboards, I would be laughably inept at doing what she does. It's funny. I'm less "get off my lawn" than I was ten years ago. I'm more like, hang out on my lawn if you want, just at least six feet away and pick up your beer cans.

 

Good points. And as you suggest, our perspective changes on things as we become more aware or familiar with new ideas, methods, etc.

[SteveCoscia]

Rick Beato's WMTSSG video on Elton John's Rocket Man is real good.

 

[stoken6]

So here's the thing. In an earlier post (CLONK) I expressed a suspicion that she is miming. I spot slight inaccuracies in lip/mouth shape, notes sustained over breaths etc. And surely a mic so far from her mouth would need enough gain that we'd hear mechanical/handling noise from her instruments and controllers. If I'm right, her multi-tasking schtick is less impressive - we are left with her singing (tuned and processed, which I dislike on an aesthetic level, but don't object to ideologically) and her songwriting, which doesn't really press my buttons.

 

If anyone can assure me that this is really a live performance, that moves the needle considerably.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

I am quite certain that for production quality that miming is being done. Or edits have been made to perfect the product that goes to YouTube. This is not surprising in our current time due to the expectations of audiences and the ease in which enhancement is achieved.

[Mike Warren]

At the very least these (the ones I've seen) have been significantly edited and mixed after the performance.

 

But I don't have any problem with that. Even the big acts do that. They'll multitrack record a large live concert and then edit and remix later. Some acts will even redo some parts.

 

The way I see it is that when [non-musicians] are watching a live concert imperfections pass so quickly they they either don't notice or they're quickly forgotten, but when it's a recording it needs to stand up to being listened to repeatedly.

 

And I think what Neon Vines does is perfectly valid. No music style is going to be universally liked.

[Dave Bryce]

As I understand it (and have experienced) more than a few DJs/dance music acts are pantomiming playing live - not just to their computer, which you'd think would be driving their gear - to carefully recorded well-mixed audio tracks.

 

I remember watching a pair of DJs opening for the Crystal Method a few years back do this. One of the things that struck me is that they had a single set of headphones, which they made a big deal of passing between them, wearing them half cup, full cup, around the neck, etc...as if they couldn't afford a headphone splitter and a second set of cans, and as if as if there was a reason for one (or either) of them to be wearing them in the first place.

 

I asked the Crystal Method guys (who were quite obviouly actually playing their gear) about this after the concert, and I was told told that this practice occurs frequently, and that the acts feel their fans deserve to see their best show...so they spend a bunch of time recording it, learning it, and practicing the moves.

 

dB

[jerrythek]

No secret that many big-time musicians make more money in endorsement than even hit singles, however, they wouldn't BE professional endorsers without their hit records. Jordan Rudess wouldn't be on the cover of every magazine if he wasn't in Dream Theater (was he ever featured while he was in the Dixie Dregs?). Yet this woman somehow managed to put the horse before the carriage and fly! Hard not to be impressed. The most curious thing is: she's not just a "bro" either. I would have imagined an endorser in her field would be writing total prog stuff the largely male-dominated scene would lap up, but her songs is more the kind of thing women dig, I bet she's inspiring a lot of young girls out there, which is fantastic! Her whole style is very female-centric, not just an image that us guys think women should be (IMO). She's not Grimes tho, her material isn't jaw-droppingly weird or unique, but it's solid and her chops have chops!

 

I can promise you that artists are not making money from their endorsements with musical instrument manufacturers. Free gear? Sure. Tour support (gear support in other markets)? Sure. But cash payments? It really doesn"t happen at this level, at Jordan"s level etc. Huge pop stars make $$$ from consumer product companies, and tour sponsorships, but it"s from huge brands whose products/services can be used by the majority of the general population. Not from gear companies.

 

Jerry

[ElmerJFudd]

Quite. Relationships with the developers and manufacturers is one thing. Getting a consistent paying gig is another.