George Winston

[Outkaster]

Well that's the internet also that fuels that shit. We have a lot of youtube musicians out there.

 

YouTube proves every day that there are all styles and levels of music makers all around us. Wonderfully skilled players abound. Writers of compelling original music are more rare.

 

I agree but there are a slew of them that really shouldn't be putting up videos is all I mean.

[allan_evett]

Hold on..just making sure this thread is not construed as a diss against Winston. It"s not. It"s a diss on the misuse of the word genius. To your comment, you can have an educated, trained jazz musician who knows theory inside/out who is still a terrible player due to a number of factors that are consistent to every musical genre: i.e. good meter, knowing when to step up, or when to step down, ensemble awareness, etc. In defence of Winston, I would say he knows to play within the limits of his own musicianship which is something a lot of younger, educated jazz players really do not get...everything I see on youtube now of younger players is 'look at how good I am at reharm!' Hipness is a disease if you don"t keep it in check.

 

True, and thanks for clarifying that. Sometimes I go into reaction mode about the 'outside playing' snobbishness I experienced in the Chicago scene at that time.

I agree that the word 'genius' is definitely overused. Kind of like the standing ovation.

[Paughrock]

I think that 'snobbiness" is in every jazz scene where there are colleges/universities with jazz programs churning out students year after year. The next time you go to Starbucks, start talking jazz theory with you barista...chances are they have a masters and you may end up getting a free theory lesson with your latte! ð

[pinkfloydcramer]

I fully understand the OP's reaction to the dumbing down of the "genius' label. I have a similar reaction similar to "amazing". In the Youtube age, everyone's "amazing" (FWIW I think it's great that all skill levels are represented on Youtube).

 

Maybe not "genius", but I think it takes a lot of talent to play something that's fresh and non-cliche within the constraints of consonance. That's why I'm a big fan of country studio musicians (and I'm not just angling for brownie points with Mr. Nathan although that's part of it lol).

 

+1 one for the comment that GW does Guaraldi well. I enjoy his recording of Guaraldi covers (Linus and Lucy- the Music of Vince Guaraldi). He gives the middle part of the title track (straight 8th, not swing) the James Booker treatment.

[timwat]

Agree with the dumbing down of "genius" in general usage.

 

But again, it's really something to produce music that touches other people emotionally. And to be able to do that repeatedly, not just lightning in a bottle - in another time, it's what we called talent.

 

In a world where everyone's talented, everyone's amazing, pushing a button means you're a "producer" - I guess I can see where what we used to call "talent" is now labeled "genius".

 

Just beating a dead horse I guess. But I'm glad for Winston and hope he continues to produce more music and get paid for it.

[Adan]

Let's also be careful not to imply a correlation between genius and playing outside. Playing outside is a choice that either a genius or non-genius makes. I personally have a hard time speaking of Winston and Booker in the same sentence. But it is the case that neither of them played outside.

[Paughrock]

absolutely...but as I mentioned with the Jarrett example, there are some players that 'take it out' in such a way that you don"t even know they are outside the key until they bring it back in...that level of subtlety and control is genius IMO.

[TommyRude]

I just don"t understand the 'genius" moniker.

 

IMHO, your definition of 'genius' is too narrow. You"re using the word genius to define some type of exceptional musical and creative virtuosity. I would broaden the definition to include the ability and wherewithal to establish a connection with your audience. I would venture there are plenty of people who are musical geniuses (by your definition) but fail to make that connection. And v.v., there are folks that have lesser musical talent but have a magical skill to connect with people.

 

I think you can safely extrapolate this concept across the arts. People apply the term genius to folks that have made an impact across our cultural landscape.

[Paughrock]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/genius?s=t

 

But I agree that the definition of the word is definitely changing towards something closer to your definition.

[Reezekeys]

I would broaden the definition to include the ability and wherewithal to establish a connection with your audience.

 

I would have to respectfully disagree here. I've had the amazing fortune to tour with a band that plays to mostly sold-out houses of enthusiastic fans that certainly seem to have a connection with our music. Ask me if I think I'm a genius!

 

Albert Einstein was a genius. Archimedes maybe. A bunch of old farts on a stage playing 45-year old music?

 

[CEB]

'It doesn"t have to be complicated to be cool. '

[Outkaster]

I think that 'snobbiness" is in every jazz scene where there are colleges/universities with jazz programs churning out students year after year. The next time you go to Starbucks, start talking jazz theory with you barista...chances are they have a masters and you may end up getting a free theory lesson with your latte! ð

 

From experience I can tell you unless you play jazz you are beneath them. At least that is how it comes across.

[Paughrock]

those people are just a small, generally older group...I know plenty of musicians who are jazz educated, play in non jazz settings, and are totally laid back and unassuming, It used to be like you describe back in the day, but now that jazz has fallen from grace, the next generation can"t afford to have that attitude if they hope to work. I"m Gen X, so I"ve had the privilege of working with both boomers and millennials. All the millennials I"ve worked with have incredible chops and zero attitude. The boomers, less so with regard to attitude, but I respect that they came up at a time where you could work full time in jazz, so I get why they are bitter. This is now OT...sorry.

[MathOfInsects]

What a weird and mean-spirited little thread about someone who hasn't meant much to anyone for 40 years. Do Montavani next!

[Paughrock]

out, thanks for the hang. Stay safe everyone.

[Adan]

What a weird and mean-spirited little thread about someone who hasn't meant much to anyone for 40 years. Do Montavani next!

 

The fact that I haven't thought about Winston in decades was precisely what made this thread interesting.

[Josh Paxton]

I see I'm joining the conversation after the shark-jumping point of arguments over dictionary definitions, but since I was mentioned earlier, I'll recap what I said in my livestream the other night...

 

When I was studying with Ellis Marsalis in grad school and told him I was trying to get a handle on James Booker, he told me an interesting story. He said that some years earlier he had been involved with a local musical that had run for quite a while, called "One Mo' Time." He was the pianist for the show. But there was also a piano in the lobby, and every night before the show and during the intermission, Booker would play it. And he said the sound man recorded Booker's sets every night. Then after Booker died, those tapes got passed around and copied, but the masters eventually ended up with George Winston, who was a huge Booker fan. I was as surprised at that as anyone, because all I had heard from him were a couple of his more famous albums. But Ellis said, "Let me see what I can do."

 

He picked up his office phone, made a call, and used his clout as a Columbia recording artist to get a number for George Winston. Then he made another call, and left a message saying who he was, and that he was calling because he had a student who was interested in James Booker, blah blah blah. Later that night I got a phone call at my apartment, and had a conversation that went something like this:

 

"Hello?"

 

"Hi, can I speak to Josh Paxton?"

 

"This is Josh."

 

"Hey Josh, this is George Winston."

 

"Oh! Umm, hi!"

 

"So I got a message from Ellis Marsalis that said you're studying James Booker?"

 

"Yeah, I am."

 

"Okay, well then let me send you copies of all these tapes I've got. There's like 60 or 70 of them..."

 

He asked for my address, and then we continued talking for probably another half hour or so about Booker and New Orleans piano in general. And then about three weeks later this very large box of cassettes showed up at my door. He wasn't exaggerating; there really were between 60 and 70 of them, all Booker bootlegs. Most were from the theater run that Ellis had mentioned, but there were also radio broadcasts, JazzFest performances, a set he did at the World's Fair, a few Maple Leaf tapes, all hand-labeled with dates and track lists... it was just unreal. I was beyond awestruck. If that box had been filled with gold it would not have been as valuable to me. Bear in mind that at that point there were only three "officially" released Booker albums available. So while I had been into Booker before, that was the event that sent me deep down the rabbit hole. Now suddenly I had lots of different versions of most of the songs in his repertoire, and comparing how he played them at different times was what allowed me to really start getting a handle on his approach.

 

So to a significant degree, I owe a lot of the style I developed to one exceedingly generous act by a guy who had no idea who I was. While I don't think he personally sat there day after day next to a dubbing deck copying and labeling all those tapes, he was certainly paying someone to do it, simply because he loved the music and wanted to help out a kid who wanted to learn it.

 

A few months later he did a show in Biloxi and invited me to it, so I got to meet him in person. After I spent several minutes falling all over myself thanking him, we ended up hanging out for a couple hours talking. He was just one of the nicest, most humble guys you could ever hope to meet. And while I've only run into him in person a handful of times since then, we've stayed in contact and he's remained an avid supporter of mine. Then just last year I got an unexpected envelope in the mail from him, containing two mini-thumb drives. And on those thumb drives were MP3s of all the cassettes he had sent me back in the day, which was especially welcome since my copies had been Katrina casualties.

 

So I have no meaningful input on whether he qualifies as a "genius," except to say that I'd be very surprised if he considered himself one. What I can say is that he's among the kindest and most generous people I've run across, and for that he has my undying gratitude.

[Outkaster]

those people are just a small, generally older group...I know plenty of musicians who are jazz educated, play in non jazz settings, and are totally laid back and unassuming, It used to be like you describe back in the day, but now that jazz has fallen from grace, the next generation can"t afford to have that attitude if they hope to work. I"m Gen X, so I"ve had the privilege of working with both boomers and millennials. All the millennials I"ve worked with have incredible chops and zero attitude. The boomers, less so with regard to attitude, but I respect that they came up at a time where you could work full time in jazz, so I get why they are bitter. This is now OT...sorry.

 

That's cool. I understand. I am Gen X also and haven't always had good experiences with a lot of keyboard players.

[Adan]

Searched YT for Winston playing New Orleans and this was all that came up:

 

 

I think it shows he was a serious student of New Orleans style piano.

 

Also, gotta love the mom jeans.

[TommyRude]

I would broaden the definition to include the ability and wherewithal to establish a connection with your audience.

 

I would have to respectfully disagree here. I've had the amazing fortune to tour with a band that plays to mostly sold-out houses of enthusiastic fans that certainly seem to have a connection with our music. Ask me if I think I'm a genius!

 

You've hit on another facet of this... "who" is calling who a genius? Some geniuses are self-proclaimed. Generally, they are less credible. When someone is calling someone else a genius, well I guess it depends on the credibility of the person doing the naming. When someone who has major cred calls someone else a genius, people usually follow suit and believe it, despite what their own eyes & ears are telling them.

 

Reezekeys, I have zero cred, but for consistently selling out tours to enthusiastic fans, I'm gonna walk out on a ledge and proclaim that you are a genius!

[timwat]

Josh, thanks for your post.

 

That's really heartwarming and gratifying to hear that, about anyone, and especially about a fellow muso that many of us have never met.

[El Lobo]

Thank you Josh for that incredible story.

[ChiefDanG]

To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes-

 

'You must be a talented person, because it takes talent to recognize genius.'

 

I don"t know how this fits in this conversation. My avatar told me to post it.

[Paughrock]

super cool...thanks for sharing.

 

I think part of my personal/psychological issue with Winston is that he is so pure and child like in his playing. (not a negative...a positive.) He is supremely confident in how he plays. I had that same confidence once...too many hack teachers telling me that my voicings and playing weren"t 'hip enough...' wore me down. I started to lose the confidence I once had in my teens, to have the perspective I now have/once had. Many lost years. Winston listened to his own voice and just kept going with it, blissfully unaffected by what his critics thought of his playing...always trying whatever he found inspiring, not caring if it was weird (i.e. Doors tribute album followed by a Guaraldi album, never using a rhythm section, recording solo guitar, etc.)I guess I"m a little jealous of not having had that confidence to follow my own voice at the keyboard when I was in my youth. I will definitely be giving his body of work a further listen. That and Dylan"s 'my back pages...'

 

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/OZwncQfvaKk

[Paughrock]

[video:youtube]

[hipogrito]

I see I'm joining the conversation after the shark-jumping point of arguments over dictionary definitions, but since I was mentioned earlier, I'll recap what I said in my livestream the other night...

 

When I was studying with Ellis Marsalis in grad school...

 

This post by Josh is the definition of why this forum is great. Thanks for sharing such an amazing story.

 

Regards,

Fran

[ElmerJFudd]

Fantastic story, one in a million. Great characters, great locations and a heavy dose of karma, human connection, a kind act that keeps giving. You can make something like this up, but it"s never quite as good.

[jerrythek]

What a weird and mean-spirited little thread about someone who hasn't meant much to anyone for 40 years. Do Montavani next!

 

I can always count on you to make a comment that tickles my fancy - good for you! I'd love to have a beer (or few) with you someday.

 

Jerry

[jerrythek]

Yes, thank you Josh for sharing that story. That's the true definition of a mensch. Good for GW.

[MathOfInsects]

What a weird and mean-spirited little thread about someone who hasn't meant much to anyone for 40 years. Do Montavani next!

 

I can always count on you to make a comment that tickles my fancy - good for you! I'd love to have a beer (or few) with you someday.

 

Jerry

 

Ha! Deal! I will drink club soda but promise to be as reckless and disrespectful as I would have been on beer.