"Banned for Life" - You Make the Call

[Markyboard]

...but not from this forum and so sorry to disappoint and also for the long post. Background is that about 2 months ago I ordered some parts for repair of a friend's synth; couple of custom ribbon cables, EPROMS programmed with latest OS, off the shelf caps and a transformer. Cost was $248 which I put on a credit card. There are more details I can provide regarding the initial discussions but I'll leave it at that for now. As the title indicates I'm banned from doing business with this guy ever again. Really trying to see this from his POV so feel free to voice your opinion - I'm open to criticism. I'll also fill in missing pieces based on comments.

 

 

On Mar 30, 2020, at 7:38 PM, Repair Shop Owner wrote:

 

Hi Mark,

Good news⦠I will be able to ship this out tomorrow.

Thanks for your understanding during this insane time in the world.

Hope you're staying safe.

 

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:06 PM Repair Shop Owner wrote:

Hi, I see the chargeback notice now. Thank god it didn"t go out though I wasted money on a lael for you. Thanks for wasting my time to build you custom lengths of cable, burning roms, and asking for repair advise which I happy gave you. Not to mention a chargeback during a nationwide pandemic crisis where small businesses like ours are forced to be closed.

 

You"re a class act and should thusly fuck yourself. You"re banned from our services forever.

 

Again, fuck you

 

On Apr 1, 2020, at 12:09 PM, Mark wrote:

 

Well if you calm down long enough maybe you'd like to see it from my (the customer) perspective

 

Feb 10: order placed. No date given for shipping but I figured a few days worse case. Admittedly my bad.

 

Feb 20: I sent email inquiring on delivery expectation.

Response on same day: We ran out of IDC for ribbons but i got them yesterday. I am burning the ROM"s today and then its all getting shipped

 

Could have let me know when you discovered this with a quick email, text or whatever - customer communication? Anyway from this point I think it's fair to assume this would be shipped in a day or 2 (3 tops)

 

Mar 5 (2 weeks later): I sent email asking for tracking #

 

Mar 9:Response (4 days later) : HI Packing this.

 

Mar 18: I sent email asking once again asking for tracking #

 

No response.

 

Mar 24: Called (6 days after last email) asking why my parts haven't shipped. You cited not having the connectors on hand even though by this time you had them for exactly 4 WEEKS! So why would you even bring that up? You also said you didn't know what was going on because everything was shut down. When did you shut down shop? And no way to check emails? Or call one of your guys if its not you personally filling the order?

 

Mar 25: Filed dispute with CC

 

I did warn you I could or was going to call the CC company (can't remember). You see Repair Shop Owner your story doesn't add up. You weren't "packing this" on the 9th or you would have sent it. Anymore than you were "burning the ROMS" on Feb 20. Which leads me to not believe anything you tell me including having to wait on connectors or that the shutdown had anything to do with this. Just fake excuses as far as I can tell. TBH at this point I can't tell whats true and what's not.

 

I do know this is how NOT to treat customers. I know you're pissed now and I know everyone's in a world of hurt but you're not fooling anyone. This is the way YOU CHOOSE TO DO BUSINESS! And despite all this if you had shipped the parts or called me I would have rescinded the dispute after evidence that the parts had shipped. You see, even if I'm not happy with someone I still pay them what I owe them, EVERY TIME! And in this case it's not even my money but rather that of my own customer whom I'm looking out for. I think it was that last "don't know what'a tell you man" on the phone that sent me over the edge. Some people feel power over others when they have their money.

 

Mar 30: Email from you that you were shipping my parts. And less than 2 days later you discovered the "chargeback"? What a coincidence. Did you reopen your shop? Like I said it doesn't matter whether some of this is true or not; you are not someone I care to do business with. Yelp, GS and other sites tell me I'm not the first.

 

OK continue the emotional rant and barrage of curses. We're done

 

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:17 PM Repair Shop Owner wrote:

 

Which leads me to not believe anything you tell me including having to wait on connectors or that the shutdown had anything to do with this. Just fake excuses as far as I can tell. TBH at this point I can't tell whats true and what's not.

Yes Mark, I run a very successful business on fake excuses on cheap parts. You caught me!

 

Mar 25: Filed dispute with CC

VERY glad this didn"t ship out yesterday now. wow.

 

I think it was that last "don't know what'a tell you man" on the phone that sent me over the edge. Some people feel power over others when they have their money.

I literally am being forced to seize my business by the state of california.

I literally went in yesterday to make sure your order was fulfilled.

Theres no power when you can just call a CC company instead of politely asking for a refund which I probably would"ve given for everything but the custom cabling.

 

Mar 30: Email from you that you were shipping my parts. And less than 2 days later you discovered the "chargeback"? What a coincidence. Did you reopen your shop? Like I said it doesn't matter whether some of this is true or not; you are not someone I care to do business with. Yelp, GS and other sites tell me I'm not the first.

If you put yourselves in the club of the few out of literally thousands of loyal customs who keep my life going, then I knowI made the right choice banning you for life.

I genuinely know and hope this is our last run in. For your sake i hope you dont need anything from me. Judging from the basic, low level 'duh" questions you asked me, I doubt this Prophet will be competently fixed by you.

 

To me, you"re just the kind of guy who asks a lot of stuff and has no care in the world for others.

Yes, I just saw the chargeback this morning from my payment processor.

 

Look, it"s just $240 something dollars. It wont kill me to lose it by force, but really, it just pissed me off that I wasted my day yesterday to illegally go to my own business to make sure your order is fulfilled. So i dont regret my candor. Twice now i have used foul language with 'customers' you and one other. Congrats

[Mighty Motif Max]

Not enough details on the rest of the communication for me to say much, but once someone tells me "F*** you" I'm done. My question is why he didn't respond to any emails...surely there was a way for him to access his work email from somewhere outside of his actual location. Also don't get the "waiting on connectors" when he had "received them" two weeks earlier supposedly. I don't know.

 

A thought...maybe something was messed up with the receiving of emails if he did have access. I've gotten emails a month later than they were supposed to come sometimes. In fact just yesterday I got an email from a drummer asking me which "29th" I was talking about for a gig. My email was sent on December 22nd of last year.

[MathOfInsects]

Life's too short.

[CowboyNQ]

Wow Mark, how upsetting for you. I"m sorry this happened.

 

That kind of language to a customer is never acceptable. It is also unacceptable not to communicate with a customer when you have their money and have not yet provided agreed services.

 

I have been in a similar situation twice recently. On the first occasion I also did not receive any response to multiple emails, but fortunately a phone call resulted in a friendly and apologetic conversation which resolved the matter to my satisfaction. The second instance is still ongoing and incredibly frustrating but fortunately no money has changed hands and probably won"t. But I"d certainly be looking at initiating a chargeback if it had.

 

I get that your supplier feels he has gone 'above and beyond' for you and you have added insult to injury by requesting the chargeback. But he hasn"t gone above and beyond. He"s failed to observe simple and conventionally understood baseline standards of customer service.

 

Mark I know what you are doing is somewhat unique and I sincerely hope you have the ability to deal with another vendor. I wouldn"t entertain him with any further emails or explanations unless he is prepared to show some contrition.

 

Upsetting as this no doubt is for you - time to move on and consign this person and their substandard practices to nothing more than a dinner party anecdote. When such things as dinner parties are legal again!

[Sam CA]

My Amazon order for a pair of Ethernet cables are postponed by a whole month! I could understand if anything and everything gets delayed these days. Generally e-mails can and should be answered. With that being said, everybody's stressed out these days and even simple things turn into something else rather quickly. What can I say, I'm going crazy myself.

[Ed A.]

I had a similar problem with a keyboard dealer in CT. After the owner went off on me, I never did business with him again. It was his loss because all the money I've spent over the years on gear since then went to his competition. Some people are such hotheads.

[EricBarker]

"O Hiiii Mark!"

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway, guy sounds like a douche canoe. Good thing you only filed with the CC company, I would have filed with the BBB!

[Baldwin Funster]

I would have just said , No you are banned for life!

[Josh Paxton]

Reminds me of my one experience with ProAudioStarfish.

[MAJUSCULE]

I believe the phrase du jour is "yikes".

[drawback]

"No cables for you, one year!"

 

[TommyRude]

I think when the pissed off email exchange gets beyond 3 paragraphs, it's time to cut your losses.

[ksoper]

There's a Reddit forum for just this sort of thing. It's called r/aita. Am I the Asshole? They're happy to tell you.

[Markyboard]

Some funny shit here guys but this one created some unsocially distant moisture.

Life's too short.

 

Here"s a little more perspective. As some of you know I very much enjoy interacting with tech people. In fact it"s a point of pride for me when I establish new relationships and find opportunities to maintain them. While some never develop past the initial exchange they have always been cordial and respectful. And more often than not it"s multiple exchanges of backgrounds, tech information and joyous geek talk that turns into lasting friendships. In this regard as Paul (CowboyNQ) pointed out this latest episode is indeed upsetting.

 

I"m torn here in that I know this guy is hurting business wise from the the whole Covid-19 situation. If it were strictly that I"d be embarrassed to have brought this up. This is a rough time for many and I"m not oblivious or unsympathetic. I also attribute his rant/cursing (only the 2nd time ever? ) to the stress and maybe he has other 'issues'? You never know so I"m willing to cut him some slack here too.

 

But my problems with him started before there was ever talk of shutting down businesses. This entire transaction feels like a series of lies and deception and this is the point I called him out on. We did briefly 'discuss' refunding my money in our last phone conversation which he quickly dismissed. He did not acknowledge, explain or dispute the points I made regarding the timeline prior to his business shutting down.I"m convinced this is how he operates and any hope of him taking something positive away from this are slim to none.

 

I"ve been here before (some of you have been as well - thanks for sharing) but fortunately for me it"s been many many years. I hope it"s many many more til next time.

[Joe Muscara]

I know Mark enough from here to know he's a stand-up guy. At best, the other dude is sloppy in his business practices and then got caught out with the current situation. But if he managed to keep on top of his details, he wouldn't have had a problem here. I suspect he does good work, but doesn't run his business very well. He's probably like one of those "talented" musicians that everyone loves their playing, but they're unreliable and all that, yet they still keep getting gigs so they never change.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

As a small business owner, I would NEVER use such language to a client in an email, letter, phone call, anything that might be used against my business with others (and for other reasons beyond the scope of this). Email is not a trustworthy means of communication, because one has no real way to determine if it reached the other end (unless all the way between supports getting a notice when delivered, or better, when read).

 

No problem to me that you did a chargeback. I've only had to do that a couple of times, then it was because of no delivery at all. One was on Ebay, and the person had a good rep for a long time, then it all seemed to fall apart. A $1k plus transaction, the ham radio was never sent. Took a good while to go through Ebay's system and get the refund, but it did happen. Another case was a store in NYC that 2 years after I let them have my CC to swipe, a last minute argument resulted in my cancelling the matter right then. 2 years later, they billed me for something else. Keep detailed records on where I am each day (as part of the business). Was in NC on day they claimed I bought the item. CC refunded me.

 

I have "fired" a few clients over the decades, not for the usual reason of non-payment; but because they were repeat clients that every single service call resulted in a call back for something that had never been expressed as a problem. Example: client's location was a bar 70 miles from my office, they were never there, bartender would let me in. Then they call with something that was very much not obvious. Was losing money each time with the added travel and time. Even then, when client called again, I politely explained that I just found it not profitable doing business with them, and did not desire to repeat the experience again.

 

On their behalf, the daily strain of the past several weeks is getting to us all. My computer service business is classed as "essential" by the State of NC; IF I service a client who is in an "essential" business. Besides, random unneeded travel right now in NC CAN be ticketed as a Class 2 Misdemeanor, meaning up to 60 days in jail and up to $1,000 fine. This is not being rigidly enforced. My shop is 130 feet behind my home, so I can go there when I desire. My major client (about 80% of total income last year) has a firewall and VPN that I setup 5 years ago, so I can do a lot of work remotely. I have chosen not to take any physical service calls in this time because I have COPD, and don't want to take the chance.

But - people DO get frazzled. We drove a mile to the pharmacy today for an Rx for my wife. She got really upset that there were not easily readable signs on just how to get in line for the drive by window. There were some cones, and some obviously hand done signs that were difficult to read. I just figured "whatever, it is what it is." Actually most of the time I'd be easier to get upset than her. I was just glad that after the eye operation I could see well enough to figure it out.

 

Also, this individual may well have had someone other than you really get him into a frenzy just before you called, and may well be very worried how to feed family and keep them in home the next couple of months. Times like this, I'm really glad that wife or self has not paid any credit card interest in a few decades, unless an emergency need, we formed the pattern of paying all the bills first, then living on the remainder. I charge a bunch of stuff, but pay it off before any interest, even pay all that is owed if not yet on the statement. Many people probably have maxed out every card they have just in "normal" (to them) life.

 

Final: If I were in your place, I'd just feel sorry a bit for the vendor, conclude that I had done the right thing, and just move on. Way too many important things to have in the mind. Very unlikely that one vendor is the sole source of parts for your equipment.

[J. Dan]

IDK, but "Band for Life" would be a great band name. Just sayin'.

[Ledbetter]

Everyone"s a little excitable and not quite on their game lately. Give it one more sincere try to pay the guy for the work he did and the products you need. It"s not normal times. Clearly the repair guy was disrespectful, rude and generally inappropriate. Try a little tenderness. If it works, it will save you time and money. If it doesn"t, you"re out fifteen minutes. Just my thoughts. Good luck whatever you decide.

[Markyboard]

Joe and MBK - spot on. It's so easy to paint a narrow picture based on what one observes/experiences. Once I calmed down I envisioned this guy with little kids at home. How would I respond in front of them despite the guy being an a**hole? I'm no do-gooder and I'd be a bit more aggressive under normal circumstances. My initial pre-edited response proves that although I much prefer extreme snarkasm over cursing someone out. But these days it just seems a little more wrong.

 

 

Ledbetter - I have no desire to ever correspond with this guy again. Ironically other than the firmware which I now have another source for, everything I ordered from him is available from Mouser for much cheaper. His services were to save me time. But you make a good point and instead I'll send him $30 cash for the custom ribbon cable work . The guy is right about that aspect. He can keep the cables.

 

 

IDK, but "Band for Life" would be a great band name. Just sayin'.

 

Dan, sometimes you make me so proud. :freak:

[Markay]

Thats generous Mark given what happened. Early in my day job career I was involved in evaluating physc testing as staff selection tool. One thing that came out in most tests was that past behaviour is a strong predictor of future behaviour. How we respond under pressure typically doesn't change. This vendor may have organisation or planning deficiencies which gets in the way of providing a timely and efficient service. Under pressure over promises and rationalises that the customer is the problem for them failing to deliver what they promised. Sure we are in exceptional circumstances now but most will handle things the same way we handle lesser issues.

 

The coronavirus pandemic not the issue here, its just the way this guy is.

[BluesKeys]

As a former business owner. Standard practice is you do not process a Credit Card until the item ships. The problem with liars is they cannot remember who they told which lie to!!! Mark, regardless of this guy"s current situation, he brought this on himself by telling you he was finishing up Feb 20, and you still had nothing a MONTH later. Screw him!!!

[drawback]

As a former business owner. Standard practice is you do not process a Credit Card until the item ships. The problem with liars is they cannot remember who they told which lie to!!! Mark, regardless of this guy"s current situation, he brought this on himself by telling you he was finishing up Feb 20, and you still had nothing a MONTH later. Screw him!!!

 

+1 and my biggest problem with the guy was his language. He can have that attitude, but the saying is, 'Don"t bite the hand that feeds you.'

[ProfD]

Brotha Mark, if you choose to send that disrespectful, petulant, inconsiderate, selfish, greedy dude $30 or 30 cents, it is confirmed that you're a better man than me.

 

After that exchange and once we get over this pandemic, I would have spent more $ buying a plane ticket and making hotel arrangements in Cali.

 

That way, I could visit fellow forumites, sightsee and whup that guy's azz.

 

Otherwise, let it go. Life is short enough.

[RABid]

Only a very small part of me thinks that maybe the shop owner is stressed out in these uncertain times, but honestly, there is no excuse for the delays, non-response, and actions or inaction that he has taken. Find a new source and move on.

[BluMunk]

Yeah. This guy, nefariously or not, told a lot of fibs during a long drawn out process, and was not responsive to communication in a timely manner.

 

You're 100% in the right here.

 

Also, you made one crucial mistake in your email to him. It was great until you got to your Mar 25th paragraph. Up until that point you laid out a great case for how he dropped the ball. Then you spend three paragraphs defending your choice to get a chargeback.

 

Of course, his response ignores everything preceding that section, and just focuses on attacking your defense.

 

I'm often that way too . . . in conflict I get wordy explaining my position, trying to explain how absolutely right I am, but all that does is make the conversation about my behavior, and not the other person's. It allows the other person to poke at my choices, or my wording, and conveniently not address the real issue.

 

 

 

And yes, this is a tough time for everyone, and we all should cut each other slack as much as we can. However, no one is morally obligated to be on the receiving end of poor service/communication.

[AWkeys]

If it's any consolation, I foolishly supported a Kickstarter campaign for a custom-built Minimoog clone that still hasn't delivered almost 4 years later. Because it's Kickstarter, getting a refund for that sizable amount paid in good faith is near impossible.

[TommyBoy]

I believe this one still has some legs, Godwin's Law and all.....

 

 

Oh, and the guy is an idiot. Communication is simple in these times and sometimes all that is required to assuage the situation. Your list of dates is important.

[xKnuckles]

Joe and MBK - spot on. It's so easy to paint a narrow picture based on what one observes/experiences. Once I calmed down I envisioned this guy with little kids at home. How would I respond in front of them despite the guy being an a**hole? I'm no do-gooder and I'd be a bit more aggressive under normal circumstances. My initial pre-edited response proves that although I much prefer extreme snarkasm over cursing someone out. But these days it just seems a little more wrong.

 

 

Ledbetter - I have no desire to ever correspond with this guy again. Ironically other than the firmware which I now have another source for, everything I ordered from him is available from Mouser for much cheaper. His services were to save me time. But you make a good point and instead I'll send him $30 cash for the custom ribbon cable work . The guy is right about that aspect. He can keep the cables.

 

Hi Mark: This sounds a good plan. In so many instances like this, I think it is all about not making the cure worse than the disease... So if the guy has acted badly - as this one seems to have - and you respond with (apparently reasonable) demands for recompense; will you ultimately pay a much higher price in terms of guilt at having felt it necessary to act that way at this impossibly horrible time for all business people, and perhaps waste time and energy worrying about whether you should have acted differently? Sometime the money regained is nowhere near as valuable as the self esteem lost...

So I think you have come to a kind, thoughtful solution.

 

Taking this a bit further, I also wish people would think in this manner before they start suing hospitals, schools, or other people etc. for genuine, non malicious mistakes. They then have to undergo a long process of the lawsuit etc during which the incident - which it would be in their best interest to try to forget - cannot be anywhere other than at the front of their minds. Furthermore, they may find they themselves attempting to find injury & intent (possibly where none existed) in order to justify the course they have embarked upon. A course which may, ultimately, lead to significant financial gain - but perhaps at the cost of even more significant damage to their health (through stress, guilt and worry) and self esteem.

[Markyboard]

 

Also, you made one crucial mistake in your email to him. It was great until you got to your Mar 25th paragraph. Up until that point you laid out a great case for how he dropped the ball. Then you spend three paragraphs defending your choice to get a chargeback.

 

Of course, his response ignores everything preceding that section, and just focuses on attacking your defense.

 

I'm often that way too . . . in conflict I get wordy explaining my position, trying to explain how absolutely right I am, but all that does is make the conversation about my behavior, and not the other person's. It allows the other person to poke at my choices, or my wording, and conveniently not address the real issue.

 

 

Exactly the kind of critique I was looking for - Acknowledged and thanks so much!

[Markyboard]

 

Hi Mark: This sounds a good plan. In so many instances like this, I think it is all about not making the cure worse than the disease... So if the guy has acted badly - as this one seems to have - and you respond with (apparently reasonable) demands for recompense; will you ultimately pay a much higher price in terms of guilt at having felt it necessary to act that way at this impossibly horrible time for all business people, and perhaps waste time and energy worrying about whether you should have acted differently? Sometime the money regained is nowhere near as valuable as the self esteem lost...

So I think you have come to a kind, thoughtful solution.

 

Thanks Anne - exactly my thought as I just mailed the $40 ( wanted to cover his shipping label cost too). Admittedly this was really about making myself feel better about the whole thing, which I do now. Btw I share your feelings about most lawsuits.