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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
FDA says they're not approving the Astra-Zeneca Oxford vaccine until APRIL.

Which is rubbish, given they're already giving it in the U.K. and elsewhere, it should only have been weeks behind the same approval process given to Pfizer and Moderna. Astra-Zeneca obviously didn't grease the right hands in the U.S. government. The massive publicity Pfizer and Moderna got before the roll out, and the distortion "reporting" of the Oxford vaccine (when there was any...) is quite telling.

The Oxford vaccine doesn't have the same logistical distribution problems Pfizer/Moderna has, it's a travesty it's not being doled out here in the States! My 86 year old father is on the Georgia Department of Health list - nothing, VA - nothing, and the local clinics that apparently were authorized to give it to elderly ran out fast. Meanwhile we're a big medical school town here in Augusta Georgia - and they're slowwwwwwly vaccinating employees here, but slowwwwwwly, and some don't want it. We have the resources here to have had EVERYBODY in the health care industry vaccinated in 2 days, it's ...

..it's a lack of leadership from the top. You know who I'm talking about. From January on, things could have been different, and the lack of preparation for this - when they had *months* - the lack of the use of FEMA, pushing the responsibility onto the States - is another indictment. 3 million doses a month IS NOT GOING TO WORK. It will MUTATE. We should all have access to the vaccine by the end of next month, logistically it could and should have happened. This is a frakking NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

I have more of an issue with the extremely rapid approval of the Pfizer and Moderna ones than with the delay with the AZ/Oxford one, and that's me saying that as someone who thinks the AZ one will be the way to go. The big issue seems to be uncertainty about why the 1/2 dose patients (which may have not been intentional) had a higher degree of success than those who took the full dose. I do think it should be clarified before approval, but I don't like the double standards either. I'm not sure if Pfizer or Moderna had similar reporting oddities or not though.


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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
..it's a lack of leadership from the top. You know who I'm talking about. From January on, things could have been different, and the lack of preparation for this - when they had *months* - the lack of the use of FEMA, pushing the responsibility onto the States - is another indictment. 3 million doses a month IS NOT GOING TO WORK. It will MUTATE. We should all have access to the vaccine by the end of next month, logistically it could and should have happened. This is a frakking NATIONAL EMERGENCY.
Lay the blame where it belongs. Individual states had months to set up the logistics with local health authorities, most of them didn't bother. New York had to throw out unused vaccines because of their incompetence in setting things up.

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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
..it's a lack of leadership from the top. You know who I'm talking about. From January on, things could have been different, and the lack of preparation for this - when they had *months* - the lack of the use of FEMA, pushing the responsibility onto the States - is another indictment. 3 million doses a month IS NOT GOING TO WORK. It will MUTATE. We should all have access to the vaccine by the end of next month, logistically it could and should have happened. This is a frakking NATIONAL EMERGENCY.
Lay the blame where it belongs. Individual states had months to set up the logistics with local health authorities, most of them didn't bother. New York had to throw out unused vaccines because of their incompetence in setting things up.


its easy to finger point the states. I didn't see anyone 'running the #'s' for distribution.

It was obvious to me the States did not have the funding to organize a complex, layered distribution of vaccine to various areas within their state.
They kept on pleading for support.

The states are hammered, with C-19 spreading. Did you notice ? That emergency takes most of the scarce resources.

Without Federal funds, the states can't do more than write up a project plan draft.

Its considerably more involved than getting a list from the CDC of groups who are the priority.

The last stim package had some state funding, but it was to little, too late.

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Originally Posted by JohnG11
Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
Thanks for the compliment. I'm 74 and a half. Our governor has given priority to everyone over 65.

People often tell me that I look young for my age.

That makes two of us, Notes.

Me? July '46. They say it was a good year, if very cold in the UK.

I should get my first shot in Feb. A strict rollout here with the real oldies and vulnerables first, then key workers, etc.
So far about 2.5 million people vaccinated.

You do understand that even when you've had your two shots you can still catch the virus but you have a 90% chance of not being very ill.
You can still, having caught it, pass it on, as with flu.

Take care.
JohnG.

July 19 for me. Or so they say -- I don't really remember.

Yes, I intend to still wear my mask and keep other safety precautions up after I get my second shot. If not for me, for the 'greater good' of society so as not to infect others. I understand I can get it and pass it on before my immune system beats it.

Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
FDA says they're not approving the Astra-Zeneca Oxford vaccine until APRIL.

Which is rubbish, given they're already giving it in the U.K. and elsewhere, it should only have been weeks behind the same approval process given to Pfizer and Moderna. Astra-Zeneca obviously didn't grease the right hands in the U.S. government. The massive publicity Pfizer and Moderna got before the roll out, and the distortion "reporting" of the Oxford vaccine (when there was any...) is quite telling.<...>

Oxford says they will distribute the vaccine at cost - for zero profit. In the US we have the best politicians money can buy. Without profit, they didn't buy. Perhaps the new administration has different priorities - time will tell. 'Nuff said before I cross the line here.

Notes


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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
July 19 for me. Or so they say -- I don't really remember.

Well, that makes me nearly two weeks older than you ... youngster! ;-)
Strange you say that, I have no recollection either. Perhaps we both have amnesia?

Quote
Yes, I intend to still wear my mask and keep other safety precautions up after I get my second shot. If not for me, for the 'greater good' of society so as not to infect others. I understand I can get it and pass it on before my immune system beats it.

I believe that's the correct thing to do until it all dies down.

Quote
Oxford says they will distribute the vaccine at cost - for zero profit. In the US we have the best politicians money can buy. Without profit, they didn't buy. Perhaps the new administration has different priorities - time will tell. 'Nuff said before I cross the line here.

I think I read somewhere in the 'better' UK press (if there is such a thing) that our government had pre-ordered something like 100 million does of the Oxford vaccine, less of the Pfizer one.
Did, the US pre-order any of the Oxford vaccine I wonder? Maybe that's why the FSA isn't hurrying, there's limited availability and it's going first to the countries that ordered in advance.
No point rushing to approve it if it won't be available in the US until Feb or March, or even later, who knows.

The Pfizer vaccine, I'm told, uses a completely new process, probably contributing to its higher cost, and the need for deep refrigeration.
The Oxford one, according to what I've heard on the BBC, is a 'conventional' anti-virus vaccine, not dissimilar to the way the flu jab is produced. I'm guessing that using older technology makes it cheaper.
I recall seeing UK prices of around 2 pounds for the Oxford vaccine and around 15 pounds for the Pfizer one. Quite a difference.

It's strange how cultures differ.
Many years ago, back in the late eighties as I recall we had a Japanese gentleman from Fujitsu come to visit our office to learn what we were doing with some networking technology.
A few days into his visit he came in wearing a face mask, and I asked him if he was scared of catching something.
"Oh, no" he repled, "I think I'm catching a cold and I don't want to pass it on to anyone."
Apparently it's normal in their culture.
I found it was true when a reciprocal visit occured and I spent a few weeks in Tokyo.
(I also learnt to bow and to say "Hai!")

JohnG.

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Originally Posted by JohnG11
Many years ago, back in the late eighties as I recall we had a Japanese gentleman from Fujitsu come to visit our office to learn what we were doing with some networking technology.
A few days into his visit he came in wearing a face mask, and I asked him if he was scared of catching something.
"Oh, no" he repled, "I think I'm catching a cold and I don't want to pass it on to anyone."
Apparently it's normal in their culture.

Indeed it is. Some people think that lack of reluctance to wearing masks helped several of the Asian countries to get Covid until control sooner.

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Craig, It wouldn't surprise me at all.
Certainly, what I saw the two times I visited Tokyo, albeit many years ago, was a great respect for other people in the general populace.
Everyone I met was almost excessively polite.

I came across this interesting article yesterday, It's rather long, but I thought I'd share it. It is just speculation though.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/art...ml?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

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Having survived the dreaded 'rona without much difficulty myself I've answered the call to donate plasma and am scheduled to do that this afternoon after work.

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Thank you, Greg.

I commend you for your generosity and wiling to help for the 'greater good'.


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How about thinking some happy thoughts RE how the live music scene will be post- vaccination, and how best to position ourselves for that? That really needs to be a new thread but if I start it no one will participate, because nobody likes me frown laugh.

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Originally Posted by JohnG11
I came across this interesting article yesterday, It's rather long, but I thought I'd share it. It is just speculation though.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/art...ml?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

I like articles that say upfront that what's happening is speculation, it's an indicator that an agenda may not be involved.

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Originally Posted by pinkfloydcramer
How about thinking some happy thoughts RE how the live music scene will be post- vaccination, and how best to position ourselves for that? That really needs to be a new thread but if I start it no one will participate, because nobody likes me frown laugh.

How can you NOT like someone with a handle of "pinkfloydcramer"? I always liked their song, "Shine On, You Crazy Last Date."

But seriously...what you're saying was the intention behind starting this thread. I had no idea at the time how much havoc the pandemic was going to wreak on the world. By "not going away" I was thinking a few months, not over a year. At the time we were being told that 15,000 people would die, max, and everything was under control. And even the countries that did get things under control initially have had serious relapses. This thing is stubborn, mean, and smart.

However, there are hopeful signs that by June, matters will be much better. With warmer weather in the northern hemisphere, outdoor events will likely be possible again. So I agree with you that now is a good time to start thinking about what's next.

I think the concert scene will re-start as outdoor events. It will take longer for clubs to be considered safe. Even outdoors, I don't know if it will be necessary to have social distancing and such. If so, something like an outdoor amphitheater would work, because there are seats and rows where you could mark off distances, and have assigned seating. Festivals will probably still be questionable.

Of course, outdoor events are also at the mercy of the weather. "Gear ponchos" to cover your stuff may become a thing.

As to positioning yourself for post-Covid, that's both a tough question and an easy one. The easy one: write songs, cut demos, pass files around to bandmates so they can practice while we wait for things to get better. The tough one: no one still knows where events are leading. Anything's possible. Perhaps the transitional dynamic "from now to normal" will be a hybrid approach - playing small, live, outdoor gigs with social distancing etc., with event streaming to reach a larger audience.

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Originally Posted by Anderton
This thing is stubborn, mean, and smart.

Sorry Craig, I'm just going to have to take issue with that statement. (In the nicest possible way, of course.)

A virus has no brain. It has no feelings, it has no motives. It just mutates within a changed environment or, as the article suggests, some human being changes its structure.

The mutations that allow it spread more effectively survive, the others mutations perish. It's just survival of the fittest.
Usually viruses mutate to become less deadly but more infectious.
Then they can produce lots more of themselves.
That's the purpose behind all living creatures.

Sorry Craig, it just tickled my funny bone.

And, much kudos to you Greg. The world could do with a few more like you.
Correction, many more.

JohnG.

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Originally Posted by Mighty Motif Max
I have more of an issue with the extremely rapid approval of the Pfizer and Moderna ones than with the delay with the AZ/Oxford one, and that's me saying that as someone who thinks the AZ one will be the way to go.

The time has been compressed because the bureuacracy has been stripped out; a lot of the paper work has been streamlined/put to the front. But most importantly because *unfortunately there are plenty of volunteers and a very active sample control*.


It's much, much faster when you don't have to wait *months* to get 30,000 volunteers; and then months to have enough people get sick in your control to demonstrate enough time has elapse to *prove it's efficacy*. Nothing is rushed in the process, these trials are statistically sound, and because of the time base for the data set if anything more robust than a lot of trials.

Tertiary concerns have been addressed; the mRNA is fragile to begin with, and mRNA left over is destroyed by rnases and proteomic processes. I'm favoring the Astra-Zeneca because if anything, I would be concerned for mishandling of the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines rending them ineffective due to temperature fluctations over *and* under.


{quote]The big issue seems to be uncertainty about why the 1/2 dose patients (which may have not been intentional) had a higher degree of success than those who took the full dose. [/quote]


Neutralizing anti-body conditions are thought to be the cause. The Oxford vaccine is different than the Pfizer/Moderna, you don't want your body destroying the messenger before it's delivered the message - the initial dose has to be able to "sneak in". I'm not worried about that at all, if anything the 3
week wait for the boost may not be optimal in the long run, I suspect what is 1/2 the original dose for the prime inoculation may turn out to be right for the boost as well. Either way, *I* will not be hesitating.



Quote
I do think it should be clarified before approval, but I don't like the double standards either. I'm not sure if Pfizer or Moderna had similar reporting oddities or not though.

If there is a double standard it's in publicity. I found it curious (I think I pointed this out in this thread pages ago) that the Pfizer vaccine was being reported in the mainstream media almost as if it were the *only* vaccine, and the Oxford hardly ever was referenced. AND, when the Astra-Zeneca results came in effectively all "news" outlets *only reported the part of the story that said the full prime dose resulted in 70% efficacy, leaving out the 95-98% result with the half dose. Or they reported that "they did the trial wrong - look, they messed up, you can't trust the results" (para). Which all points to *MONEY SPENT BY PFIZER TO CAMPAIGN FOR THEIR PRODUCT AGAINST THEIR (cheaper, easier to make and distribute...) COMPETITION.


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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Lay the blame where it belongs. Individual states had months to set up the logistics with local health authorities, .

Rubbish. When a hurricane hits New Orleans, is it left up to them to get out of it or is it not a NATIONAL DISASTER?

There was a "corona virus task force" that has all along kow towed to a political message to the detriment of the U.S., and dropped the ball on logistics there as well. This is not a *State* emergency but a national one - WTF are FEDERAL agencies like FEMA and DHS supposed to be for if not to assist in NATIONAL EMERGENCIES such as this?


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Originally Posted by Anderton
I think the concert scene will re-start as outdoor events. It will take longer for clubs to be considered safe. Even outdoors, I don't know if it will be necessary to have social distancing and such.

It depends on whether enough get vaccinated in time, and whether it mutates beyond the vaccines.

Figure 6 months for the first mutation. As the number of people infected goes exponential - explaining why we've got 2 more in the past few months - there will be 30+ mutations by the end of the year (another "wacky" Chip prediction).

The South African variant apparently deviates about 5% sequence wise, and likewise is still recognized by memory t-cells post-vaccination. If we don't get the R0 down into the .5 region. given 5% every generation... then we'll potentially have a strain that's unrecognizable by...
the middle of 2022?

Which is why we must get vaccinated herd immunity by Sept-October if we want it to be something akin to getting the flu. Otherwise by next year we're in the same boat. Maybe forever.



We'll need to wear masks in public, distancing because of the 5% the vaccines won't protect at least until 2023, presuming the best of circumstances. It will be dumb to have people gathering in rooms, even outdoors until then, it's just prolonging it. It's like assembling a 100 people in a room, knowing someone is going to fire a gun; it might not hit anybody. It might ricochet and wound someone, cripple them for life. Or it might kill them. At R0=1 on average 5 people will be affected *if everyone is vaccinated*. If people could imagine that, nobody would gather in public.


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Originally Posted by JohnG11
Originally Posted by Anderton
This thing is stubborn, mean, and smart.

Sorry Craig, I'm just going to have to take issue with that statement. (In the nicest possible way, of course.)

A virus has no brain. It has no feelings, it has no motives. It just mutates within a changed environment or, as the article suggests, some human being changes its structure.


Craig's obviously using "smart" as an allusion, and it's a good one. In the case of SARS COV2 it's been very smart: be able to be infectious 24 hours after infection, while not causing any symptoms for up to 14 days. On a contagion scale that's "smarter" than most.


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An allusion?
Is that what it is?

And there was me thinking the adjectives he used were anthropomorphisms!

Oh well! I stand corrected!

Please don't take me too seriously, Chip. I'm really not worth it. Just an old codger on lockdown having a bit of fun.
I don't have a lot else to do and the Missus is busy teaching French or German or is it English on Zoom?
Langweilig! Yawn.

JohnG.

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Originally Posted by JohnG11
Originally Posted by Anderton
This thing is stubborn, mean, and smart.

Sorry Craig, I'm just going to have to take issue with that statement. (In the nicest possible way, of course.)

A virus has no brain. It has no feelings, it has no motives. It just mutates within a changed environment or, as the article suggests, some human being changes its structure.

Well, we refer to smart bombs, smart houses, and smart appliances...I meant smart in that sense, not that it writes novels or anything smile

I'll leave it up to the philosophers to decide whether viruses have consciousness, and if so, on what level.

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Originally Posted by Anderton
Well, we refer to smart bombs, smart houses, and smart appliances...I meant smart in that sense, not that it writes novels or anything smile

I'll leave it up to the philosophers to decide whether viruses have consciousness, and if so, on what level.

Well, I do remember you referring to the virus as a sentient being.

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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Lay the blame where it belongs. Individual states had months to set up the logistics with local health authorities, .

Rubbish. When a hurricane hits New Orleans, is it left up to them to get out of it or is it not a NATIONAL DISASTER?

It apparently depends upon the occupant of 1600 Penn Ave. wink (Don't mention this to people who lived in NOLA at the time, it's still a VERY sore subject, understandably.)

Hopefully this article is right: The Future of the Coronavirus

Quote
The Future of the Coronavirus? An Annoying Childhood Infection
Once immunity is widespread in adults, the virus rampaging across the world will come to resemble the common cold, scientists predict.


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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
Originally Posted by Mighty Motif Max
I have more of an issue with the extremely rapid approval of the Pfizer and Moderna ones than with the delay with the AZ/Oxford one, and that's me saying that as someone who thinks the AZ one will be the way to go.

The time has been compressed because the bureuacracy has been stripped out; a lot of the paper work has been streamlined/put to the front. But most importantly because *unfortunately there are plenty of volunteers and a very active sample control*.


It's much, much faster when you don't have to wait *months* to get 30,000 volunteers; and then months to have enough people get sick in your control to demonstrate enough time has elapse to *prove it's efficacy*. Nothing is rushed in the process, these trials are statistically sound, and because of the time base for the data set if anything more robust than a lot of trials.

Tertiary concerns have been addressed; the mRNA is fragile to begin with, and mRNA left over is destroyed by rnases and proteomic processes. I'm favoring the Astra-Zeneca because if anything, I would be concerned for mishandling of the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines rending them ineffective due to temperature fluctations over *and* under.

Yes, I know those have really helped. It's amazing what can be done with virtually unlimited funding and volunteers. Just remember that the one thing that can't be expedited with unlimited funding, volunteers, workers etc is long-term effect testing. Obviously there wasn't much of a choice in this case, but it does give me pause. But I probably have a different way of looking at things with the last three generations of my family being nurses, doctors, and most recently pharmacists. An average drug might get pulled from the market within five years due to side effects, and that is with longer-term testing. Remember the Lyme's vaccine? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/3 years...and that was with the standard vaccine testing and approval process. Just makes me nervous is all.

Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
[quote=Mighty Motif Max]
Quote
I do think it should be clarified before approval, but I don't like the double standards either. I'm not sure if Pfizer or Moderna had similar reporting oddities or not though.

If there is a double standard it's in publicity. I found it curious (I think I pointed this out in this thread pages ago) that the Pfizer vaccine was being reported in the mainstream media almost as if it were the *only* vaccine, and the Oxford hardly ever was referenced. AND, when the Astra-Zeneca results came in effectively all "news" outlets *only reported the part of the story that said the full prime dose resulted in 70% efficacy, leaving out the 95-98% result with the half dose. Or they reported that "they did the trial wrong - look, they messed up, you can't trust the results" (para). Which all points to *MONEY SPENT BY PFIZER TO CAMPAIGN FOR THEIR PRODUCT AGAINST THEIR (cheaper, easier to make and distribute...) COMPETITION.

I noticed that...as if Pfizer is the best and more trustworthy. facepalm


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Follow the money.

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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
Thank you, Greg.

I commend you for your generosity and wiling to help for the 'greater good'.

Thank you Notes, I know it's something that helps and it was an easy thing I was fortunate I could do. Although it was mild for me my wife received antibody plasma during her three day stay in the hospital as part of her remarkable recovery. A great guy we both knew was a few rooms away while she was there on the covid ward and died from a heart attack two days after she was released. In mid October we attended the funeral of a dear friend that died after more than three weeks on a ventilator. It's affected us all but more than anything else I want to see things return to a more normal state and I'd like to think any of us are doing everything we think we can to help out.

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Originally Posted by Greg Mein
Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
Thank you, Greg.

I commend you for your generosity and wiling to help for the 'greater good'.

Thank you Notes, I know it's something that helps and it was an easy thing I was fortunate I could do. Although it was mild for me my wife received antibody plasma during her three day stay in the hospital as part of her remarkable recovery. A great guy we both knew was a few rooms away while she was there on the covid ward and died from a heart attack two days after she was released. In mid October we attended the funeral of a dear friend that died after more than three weeks on a ventilator. It's affected us all but more than anything else I want to see things return to a more normal state and I'd like to think any of us are doing everything we think we can to help out.

You are consistent with your online persona, and an asset to this community as well as the world at large.

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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
It apparently depends upon the occupant of 1600 Penn Ave. wink

Yes it does.

Having the parameters of a scale that spans from ignoring it (the U.S.) to doing what it takes (NZ) points to the leadership of each nation as having been responsible for the resulting state.

It was obvious "this" was going to happen. I started taking precautions in early January, to the ridicule of those around me. Had the U.S. government announced the milquetoast suggestion of "everyone wear a mask, make a mask if necessary, and stay distanced, wash your hands" in
January, *without a doubt thousands of lives would have been saved* Thousands. And the U.S. wouldn't be in this ruinous state we're in now due to the *necessity* for lock downs (even though we didn't really do it...).


January was an inflection point, the initiation of the predicament
.

December was an inflection point, the initiation of a possible mitigation.



Both should have been handled on a federal level, prioritizing the stock market over the people was/is evil.



Quote
Hopefully this article is right: The Future of the Coronavirus

Optimistic, given how slow vaccinations are happening and the lack of cognizance of taking the precautions of wearing masks and distancing religiously.


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All I know is that so many people now have infections the odds of getting COVID are much higher. It used to be I could go into a store while wearing a mask, do whatever I needed to do in a few minutes, and rest assured that the odds were in my favor because there weren't that many infected people. It's no longer that way. Curbside delivery works for me.

At this point what happened in the past is irrelevant, other than providing lessons for the future. We need to deal with what we have now, and the mantra hasn't changed: social distancing, masks, washing hands, and if you have to meet with people, do it outside at a distance...and get vaccinated, if you can.

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Originally Posted by Mighty Motif Max
An average drug might get pulled from the market within five years due to side effects, and that is with longer-term testing

"Drugs" are not all the same. Thalidomide is not the Moderna vaccine, the Pfizer vax doesn't make your body make "GMOs" like people started babbling about yesterday on Twitter. Recalled spark plugs doesn't mean you shouldn't get your brakes fixed because the new pads might get recalled; let your brakes continue long enough and you'll have no brakes and a wreck. It won't matter it the new pads were recalled or not.


Quote
. Remember the Lyme's vaccine? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/3 years...and that was with the standard vaccine testing and approval process. Just makes me nervous is all.

Here's the problem: Lyme disease wasn't highly communicable through the air, and while bad wasn't likely to kill someone over the age of 75. That's a false equivalence; this is, unfortunately, a novel, bad situation. You can't logically cite long term worry when it's highly likely without it you're going to
get infected, and have potentially very drastic consequences from it.


I hoped to get the Oxford vaccination around "now". That looks impossible in the States until April (which is ridiculous). If something holds that up, or for some reason it's not a choice, I get one of the other, or the J&J.


Let me tell you: I am the most OCD detail-conscientious person you'll ever know. I research everything, consider PCBs in the dirt around my house versus planting vegetables, try not to let gasoline get on my fingers at the gas station, don't microwave plastics, on and on - and I'm the crazy person that has religiously used hand sanitizer at my since getting swine flu back in...2008? I absolutely hate the notion of taking a vaccine, as it introduces another question mark I don't want.

BUT, *it's easy to comprehend the ramifications of getting infected, as well as the *likelihood*.

Which totally nulls the previous mentioned question mark. It's very simple math that unfortunately I can't change or beat. The universe will win this round.


Quote
I noticed that...as if Pfizer is the best and more trustworthy. facepalm

I have no problem with the efficacy of their product, but their actions to suppress their competition is another unrelated issue.


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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
I started taking precautions in early January, to the ridicule of those around me. Had the U.S. government announced the milquetoast suggestion of "everyone wear a mask, make a mask if necessary, and stay distanced, wash your hands" in
January, *without a doubt thousands of lives would have been saved* Thousands. And the U.S. wouldn't be in this ruinous state we're in now due to the *necessity* for lock downs (even though we didn't really do it...)

Some facts that you have overlooked: In January the WHO claimed there was no evidence of human transference and as late as March Dr Fauci said masks were not required. So the government did listen to the "experts". Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized, but in retrospect was the right thing to do.

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We've learned a lot since January. That's how science works.

There was a time when doctors didn't wash their hands between patients. Most people who had any surgery at all died. Going to the hospital for any reason meant get your affairs in order. That was a little more than 100 years ago. My father was in a family of six. Another 3 died from childhood diseases that don't kill children today. We've learned a lot since then, and are still learning.

There have been a few disasters in vaccines in the past. We've learned from our mistakes. Of course that doesn't mean the present and future won't reveal other, new mistakes. However, IMO the odds of getting COVID and at worst perishing or having permanent lung, brain, liver, kidney or other organ damage is much greater than having a bad reaction to the COVID vaccine.

Note: I've never gotten a flu shot. I haven't had the flu in >30 years, and if I get it, the flu probably won't kill me. So it seems unnecessary for me to get a flu shot. However, a couple of million people have died from COVID. I don't want to be in that group. YMMV.

Thanks to our mishandling of it and people who refuse to take the evolving recommended safety precautions, with 4% of the world's population, the US leads the world with 25% of the confirmed cases. We've obviously mishandled this plague and need to learn from our mistakes and go forward.

India has an inferior health care system to ours, a billion more people than the USA, and is in second place of cases, with half as many as the USA. Think about that for a while.

I got the first vaccine, and will get the next one next month (Moderna). So far side effects have been minimal. All I felt with the first shot was a slight ache in the shoulder if I raised my arm above horizontal. It would be an exaggeration to call it pain, it was just enough to know something happened, but not enough to stop reaching for things on the top shelf.

I'm looking forward to the second jab. I'll be comfortable knowing there is a 95% chance I'll be immune.

Furthermore, I'll still wear my mask and follow all the science guidelines set down by the WHO and CDC and understand that when and if those guitelines change, it's because the experts in the field have learned more about this disease and how to control or defeat it.

To see how badly we are doing compared to other countries go to https://ncov2019.live/

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