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At my last check-in, it was still considered rude to cough or sneeze on someone, DUH. How in three-headed Hell did it suddenly become a personal insult to be asked to mask up for your own sake, as well as that of everyone you encounter? I know I'm supposed to love my fellow man, but where do I start if he's a butthead who equates scientific fact with witchcraft and thinks drinking beer in a club is an inalienable right? An applicable answer will win you a MoogerFooger analog delay. No, it won't, I'm just lying for theatrical effect.


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I think the limitation of people having freedom is in the people themselves, not in the concept of freedom.

For example, in my ideal world, there would be no laws saying that people shouldn't congregate in times of a pandemic...because people would be smart enough to say "well who would do something stupid like that?"

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Originally Posted by Anderton
I think the limitation of people having freedom is in the people themselves, not in the concept of freedom.

For example, in my ideal world, there would be no laws saying that people shouldn't congregate in times of a pandemic...because people would be smart enough to say "well who would do something stupid like that?"
Sounds like you're talking about Wisdom. Freedom means having the ability to make bad choices and suffer the consequences; anything less than that is no longer Freedom.

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I'm curious how people feel about targeted restrictions. So only essential and high-risk places are restricted, while everything else is open.

For example, these places would require strict medical security pre-cautions:
- supermarkets
- hardware stores
- gas stations
- retirement homes
- hospitals

But everything else is open and up to you if you want to take the risk or not and private businesses could decide for themselves if they wish to require medical security precautions.

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Originally Posted by Groove On
Originally Posted by Anderton
I think the limitation of people having freedom is in the people themselves, not in the concept of freedom.

For example, in my ideal world, there would be no laws saying that people shouldn't congregate in times of a pandemic...because people would be smart enough to say "well who would do something stupid like that?"
Sounds like you're talking about Wisdom. Freedom means having the ability to make bad choices and suffer the consequences; anything less than that is no longer Freedom.

Good point. But there's a sticky point about freedom - "the ability to make bad choices and suffer the consequences." But what if the people who suffer the consequences from your bad choices aren't you?

I don't have any answers, by the way. I just like to ask the questions smile

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Originally Posted by Groove On
IBut everything else is open and up to you if you want to take the risk or not and private businesses could decide for themselves if they wish to require medical security precautions.

My first thought is that would not work in a situation where there's a contagious virus that doesn't care about us, businesses, anything. To put a dent in something so pervasive would require a unified effort. We saw what happened when things opened up a little bit over the summer, and we're about to find out what happens with a larger opening in the winter.

I really wish I had an answer. The best I can say is that it does seem that wearing masks slows the rate of infections, as does avoiding crowds, so we should probably do that.

The problem with concerts is that with summer in the rear view mirror in the northern hemisphere, it won't be possible to have outdoor concerts. The cruise lines' experiment with phantom cruises wasn't encouraging either...despite their best efforts, they had to cut the experiment short when passengers got infected with COVID-19.

What a mess...it really seems like concerts and DJ parties might be the last vestiges of COVID-19 restrictions.

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Personal freedom should allow you to do things that might harm yourself. A few examples are: hang gliding, mountain climbing, riding a motorcycle without a helmet, doing recreational drugs, snow skiing, and so on.

But your freedom ends when it infringes on someone else's freedoms, life, health, or liberty. For example: driving under the influence, playing 120dba music at midnight, polluting a public water supply, walking around without a mask during a pandemic.

Why is that such a hard concept for some people to grasp?


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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
EVERYBODY WORE MASKS, GOT VACCINATED AND STAYED HOME FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS WE'D BE DONE WITH IT.
I'm not proud of this, but a part of me that's not as small as I would like sometimes thinks that we let the non-believers congregate and spread the damn thing amongst themselves while the rest of us stay home and etc. for a couple of weeks. We'd drop the population of the idiots and after they're either all dead or have their antibodies, the rest of us could come out and play. frown


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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
Why is that such a hard concept for some people to grasp?

I don’t think it is difficult to grasp. But that’s not why they are not wearing masks. Instead they are making a political statement, not a medical one.

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I never could figure out what politics had to do with a pandemic that has no party affiliation. I mean, I get that it has become politicized, but that seems highly illogical.

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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
EVERYBODY WORE MASKS, GOT VACCINATED AND STAYED HOME FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS WE'D BE DONE WITH IT.
I'm not proud of this, but a part of me that's not as small as I would like sometimes thinks that we let the non-believers congregate and spread the damn thing amongst themselves while the rest of us stay home and etc. for a couple of weeks. We'd drop the population of the idiots and after they're either all dead or have their antibodies, the rest of us could come out and play. frown

I agree, even if I’m not proud of it either.


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Originally Posted by ChiefDanG
Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
EVERYBODY WORE MASKS, GOT VACCINATED AND STAYED HOME FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS WE'D BE DONE WITH IT.
I'm not proud of this, but a part of me that's not as small as I would like sometimes thinks that we let the non-believers congregate and spread the damn thing amongst themselves while the rest of us stay home and etc. for a couple of weeks. We'd drop the population of the idiots and after they're either all dead or have their antibodies, the rest of us could come out and play. frown

I agree, even if I’m not proud of it either.

Regardless of the karmic consequences of having this viewpoint, there's a definite Darwinian element to what you're saying.

On the other hand...these are people who will devote themselves sincerely to a cause. In the words of Darth Vader: "If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally."

In the Borat movie, the two right-wing guys were the ones who took in Borat when he needed it. A lot of "those people" have good hearts and act the way they do because they want to do the right thing.

Let that sink in.

But they trust what they've been told by people they shouldn't trust. There's a certain level of naivety...but that doesn't mean they deserve the death penalty. They deserve people they can trust.

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Originally Posted by Anderton
They trust what they've been told by people they shouldn't trust. There's a certain level of naivety...but that doesn't mean they deserve the death penalty. They deserve people they can trust.

Let that sink in.

yeahthat


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Originally Posted by Anderton
Regardless of the karmic consequences of having this viewpoint, there's a definite Darwinian element to what you're saying.

On the other hand...these are people who will devote themselves sincerely to a cause. In the words of Darth Vader: "If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally."

In the Borat movie, the two right-wing guys were the ones who took in Borat when he needed it. A lot of "those people" have good hearts and act the way they do because they want to do the right thing.

Let that sink in.

But they trust what they've been told by people they shouldn't trust. There's a certain level of naivety...but that doesn't mean they deserve the death penalty. They deserve people they can trust.
You're right Craig, and thank you for that. It's just so frustrating that we're stuck with this virus for who knows how long because people are being that way about it. Of course, the media shows us the worst of them, the ones screaming and fighting and being horrible, which makes it harder to sympathize with those who think it's not real or masks aren't needed because we're only seeing the ones that are behaving badly. OTOH, we see stories about places that have this more or less under control because they did what was needed and we think, why can't we just do that? Sigh.


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Unfortunately I think it's reached a critical point where the Peasantry is finally starting to grasp the scale and ramifications of what's going on. A couple was arrested for getting on a plane knowing they had COVID in Hawaii; at some point more criminal negligence charges will happen, and liability lawsuits.

Then there won't be a need for mandates, it will be self-policing.

I think Facebook and Twitter should start consulting their legal teams, because a year from now hindsight is going to make their part in letting the anti-science bozos spread nonsense look criminal as well.

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The county to the south of us revoked their mandatory mask law because of the people who came to the city council meeting shouting about their so-called freedom.

The cases in Florida are soaring, and our governor passed a law saying local mask ordinances cannot be enforced by the law. He wants to open the economy but the tourists are afraid to come to a COVID hot-spot so the economy is failing.

I read that some people who are dying with COVID who were convinced it's a hoax are denying they have it and are telling the doctors and nurses it must be something else.

I've read about a lot of people believing that Bill Gates will put a microchip in the vaccine to track everybody's movements. Of course that's absurd. And then they go around with their cell phone tracking their every movement. Does that make sense? What aren't they thinking?

I don't understand why the anti-mask faction became political, I don't understand why some people don't want to protect themselves and others, I don't understand why anyone would be anti-science, I don't understand why some people want to risk death or permanent organ damage because of what a politician or 'news' pundit says, but then there is a lot about human nature I don't understand.

I now have 7 family members, including an infant that have COVID, because they believed it was a hoax and it was their right to not have to wear a mask. It's tragic.

I guess the big question is, "How do we wake up these anti-science people?" I tried logic, that doesn't seem to work.

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Two friends have lost parents to the virus, and at least six people I know have had it and mostly recovered. No one needs to convince me this is real.

Numbers are going up in the D.C. area, in spite of fairly widespread compliance with mask mandates. In D.C. itself, and the nearby suburbs, you don't see many bare faces at this point, and we're still seeing a rise, because it only takes one infected person to spread this thing around. If there are any NFL fans out there, look at what happened to the Baltimore Ravens this past week, and that was all due to ONE coach bringing the virus back to the team. One guy.

I'm not dining out, and no carry-out, no family gatherings for Thanksgiving or anything else, until there's a vaccine, which looks like Spring at the earliest. I rather not see people, for now, than have a bunch of Zoom funerals lined up, sometime in the near future.

For now, I have four different masks, so I can always have a clean, dry one ready, if I have to go out. If I am going any further than my own front walk, I put on a mask, and leave it right where it is until I get home, then I wash it. I also throw all my clothes into the washer, and go take a shower . . . every damned time I leave the house and come home.

I've been tested twice, so far, and will probably go in for another test in the next week or so. It only helps so much, in that it tells me if I'm likely to have had the virus as of the moment of that particular test: there's nothing to say I won't catch it on my way out of the testing site, or on my way home somehow, and a false negative is also a possibility. Still, there's nothing else I can do to stem the tide, other than staying home, and staying away from other people. If I don't get it, I can't give it to anyone, and the same holds true in reverse.

I literally can't waste my breath arguing with someone who thinks this is a hoax, since it's dangerous to be in the same physical space as them, even outdoors. If I'm walking outdoors, and I have a choice of passing real close to a resting Rattlesnake, or a person without a mask, I'll take my chances with the snake.


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Originally Posted by Winston Psmith
Numbers are going up in the D.C. area, in spite of fairly widespread compliance with mask mandates. In D.C. itself, and the nearby suburbs, you don't see many bare faces at this point, and we're still seeing a rise, because it only takes one infected person to spread this thing around.

I still go into the office building where I work in NW DC 3 days a week as I am deemed essential personell by my employer. I am mandated to wear a KN 95 mask for the entire 8 hours, except for a few minutes when I am alone at my desk to eat something. I am happy to report that as I look out the windows, or when I rarely go outside (probably once a month for the last 9 months) everyone is wearing masks, even homeless people. Yet cases are still rising.


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Originally Posted by Doerfler
Originally Posted by Winston Psmith
Numbers are going up in the D.C. area, in spite of fairly widespread compliance with mask mandates. In D.C. itself, and the nearby suburbs, you don't see many bare faces at this point, and we're still seeing a rise, because it only takes one infected person to spread this thing around.

I still go into the office building where I work in NW DC 3 days a week as I am deemed essential personell by my employer. I am mandated to wear a KN 95 mask for the entire 8 hours, except for a few minutes when I am alone at my desk to eat something. I am happy to report that as I look out the windows, or when I rarely go outside (probably once a month for the last 9 months) everyone is wearing masks, even homeless people. Yet cases are still rising.

First thought, when all this is over, let's meet up IRL, somewhere. Haven't been in DT D.C. since going to the Warner back in March.

Back on topic - Family gatherings like Thanksgiving, and dining out seem to be the main drivers around here, rather than rabid anti-maskers. Much of why I avoid even carry-out.


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We have anti-maskers jamming restaurants and bars here in Florida because our anti-science governor encourages business as usual. I've lost one musician friend and know two more who got a severe case and recovered. I don't know if they have lasting damage or not because I'm friends with the guitar player in that band.

A lot of the bars are having open mic nights and I hear they have no trouble with people risking death to play for free. What are you folks thinking? Who sang in the mic before you? Does an audience member have it? Are you taking a deep breath of COVID to sing the next line? Is the AC return vent behind you? Are you crazy? Are you literally dying to play?

I take this plague very seriously. I'm practicing safer at home. I have a small house on a half acre in a sparsely populated section of town with a 2 mile wide lagoon on one side and protected wetlands n the other.

I go out for groceries, first thing in the morning when the store is almost deserted, and I buy enough to last 2 weeks or longer. Masked and gloved. Who touched the cart before me? The gloves get taken off before I get in the car and walked to the proper bin for disposal. Credit cards are sprayed with alcohol before going back into my pocket. Mask stays on and doesn't get touched until I get home.

I take my clothes off before entering the house (I have privacy in the back yard) and hang them on the clothesline so the UV rays of the sun can kill the virus before they come in the house for laundering. All packing gets sterilized before it comes in the house. First thing when I get in I wash my hands again. After bringing groceries in, I wash them again.

I keep the house open unless the temperature goes under 60, so that means it's open every day.

I don't go out to eat, I don't do take-out, I don't go to family or any other gatherings, I get exercise by walking up and down my dead end street at a time when I'm least likely to meet my neighbors, and if I do meet one, I make sure I'm upwind and over 6 feet away.

Any other time I leave the house it is a must-do, not a want-to-do situation, and those are few and far in between.

I'm spending a lot less on gas for my car (there's a bright spot).

The vaccine is coming, it's only a matter of months, perhaps less. One false move could negate the care I've given this since last March.

I'm really tired of having to avoid people, I'm really tired of not gigging, I'm really tired of wearing the mask, I'm really tired of wearing the gloves, but I'm not complaining about it or letting down my guard. And I believe the infectious disease experts, not the news pundits, politicians, preachers, or propagandists.

For those of you also being careful, I hope to see you on the other side. For those not being careful, I wish you good luck. I hope to see you on the other side too.

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As more people know those who have been dealt a sucker punch by COVID, attitudes will change. As long as it happened to "someone else," in our solipsistic society, it doesn't count. If it happens to someone you know, it starts to matter.

More and more, I'm hearing of people having first-hand experience with COVID. EveAnna Manley's place got hit because someone had COVID, fortunately it was dealt with expeditiously so she didn't have to shut the whole place down, but it's impacted manufacturing. Bear in mind she has always taken this seriously, so it wasn't like she was some hoaxer getting her comeuppance or anything...just someone whose business got screwed up because one of the people working for her wasn't careful outside of the workplace.

The front line people are know are going out of their minds. The people who are cavalier about spreading infection have no idea how many lives they're damaging. Frankly, the time to put the brakes on COVID was July and August. At this point, it pretty much has the run of the country. All we can do is try our best not to make it even worse, ride it out, and in the aftermath, deal with the damage caused to society.

I'm not putting this entirely on the politicians. No one would have been able to handle this perfectly, because the USA is a different kind of country. The countries that have been able to control COVID are more oriented toward society rather than the individual, either by consensus or by decree. Asians have always worn masks if they had a cold or whatever because they didn't want to infect others. We just don't have that kind of mentality here. The USA has benefitted greatly by encouraging rugged individualism, but as we're finding out, there's no free lunch.

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Originally Posted by Winston Psmith
First thought, when all this is over, let's meet up IRL, somewhere. Haven't been in DT D.C. since going to the Warner back in March.

I'll look forward to that. smile
I was at the Warner twice in February to see TTB. Now that pandemic has changed my perspective, I wish I had gone all four nights. Moving forward, whenever that is, I will go see every band I like every night they are in town. This will be difficult becuse demand for tickets was great before the pandemic. I can't imagine what demand/prices will be when the pandemic is slowed down (I won't say over because we don't know if it will ever be over). Who did you see in March? idk
Imagine when the E Street Band tours again. Tickets were almost impossibe to buy when things were normal, and they were very expensive then. Demand will be unprecedented.


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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
I guess the big question is, "How do we wake up these anti-science people?" I tried logic, that doesn't seem to work.

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These people that you, and others, are arguing with or against, have you tried directing them to the clinical trial studies on masks? Wouldn't that be the indisputable scientific proof?

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Originally Posted by Greg Mein
Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
I guess the big question is, "How do we wake up these anti-science people?" I tried logic, that doesn't seem to work.

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These people that you, and others, are arguing with or against, have you tried directing them to the clinical trial studies on masks? Wouldn't that be the indisputable scientific proof?

No. It would not be. People are going to believe what they're going to believe.


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Originally Posted by Doerfler
Originally Posted by Winston Psmith
First thought, when all this is over, let's meet up IRL, somewhere. Haven't been in DT D.C. since going to the Warner back in March.

I'll look forward to that. smile
I was at the Warner twice in February to see TTB. Now that pandemic has changed my perspective, I wish I had gone all four nights. Moving forward, whenever that is, I will go see every band I like every night they are in town. This will be difficult becuse demand for tickets was great before the pandemic. I can't imagine what demand/prices will be when the pandemic is slowed down (I won't say over because we don't know if it will ever be over). Who did you see in March? idk

We went to see Steve Hackett's "Selling England By The Pound" tour. Unabashed Prog fan here. Saw King Crimson, Renaissance and Steve Hackett all within a few months of one another. We had tix for TTB and King Crimson at Wolf Trap, but of course all the Summer season shows were cancelled.

Stay safe and healthy!


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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
A lot of the bars are having open mic nights and I hear they have no trouble with people risking death to play for free. What are you folks thinking? Who sang in the mic before you? Does an audience member have it? Are you taking a deep breath of COVID to sing the next line? Is the AC return vent behind you? Are you crazy? Are you literally dying to play?

I know people that are doing gigs at places where mutual friends have been infected, and dozens of people have been infected. I also know people that are gigging that now have family members infected after Thanksgiving.

The government, social media and the networks are to blame. Zero education. There should have been PSAs on every commercial break, CDC should have had a consistent and conservative message; and I hate to say it, but those in positions at the CDC, NIH et al should have defied the imperial regime and been blunt about the dangers of COVID and to be extra circumspect about taking precautions. In a lot of ways, that time Fauci did the interview and played down masks (no doubt because of pressure from 45) has a LOT to do with the anti-mask brigade feeling so empowered months later. And Redmond being lackadaisical, and the Surgeon General should be in jail for crimes against humanity - going around telling people masks don't work.

I now realize the median i.q. aren't capable of grasping the science, and that's where the government should step in and take responsibility. It took 50 years for the same demographic to grasp smoking kills you, and we don't have 50 years for this.

Local hospitals in my area are at 90% capacity - and we have a LOT of hospitals, a big medical school as well - and restaurants, clubs/bars are open. Most places with people not wearing masks. I drive around occasionally to see what's going on, look at the people walking into restaurants with no masks, going in the gas stations with masks (it's amazing people work registers at these places .... 100's of people going in and out all day...?).......


I find myself awake in a loony bin.


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Maybe I live in a bubble, but around here, pretty much everyone goes around with a mask. A mandate was put in place at the end of June that if you wanted to go into public places, you had to wear a mask. If you try to go into a store without one, you get turned away. I don't wear a mask when I take walks outside because I live in a place where I don't run into people, but aside from that, I always make sure I have a mask on. It definitely seems people are with the program around here. Don't know if it's the same in downtown Nashville, though.

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Originally Posted by Anderton
The front line people are know are going out of their minds.
Actually, I've seen a few stories (I haven't read them all so I don't know if it's the same front-line people or different ones) that what's really killing them is that they're putting people on ventilators who are literally denying that it's COVID as they do it.

https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/n...avirus-is-real-even-as-they-die-from-it/

https://www.newsweek.com/coronaviru...d-skeptic-deniers-misinformation-1548360


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Originally Posted by Anderton
Maybe I live in a bubble, but around here, pretty much everyone goes around with a mask. A mandate was put in pl.

Nashville is a concentrated Blue dot in the middle of a Red state. In the CSRA (Central Savannah River Area)/Augusta you've got one sort of Blue county and very concentrated Red counties. You see masks on about half the people in the Blue county, but go 10 miles out to the affluent Red county and it's like nothing special is going on.


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Is COVID mother nature's way of thinning the weak minded out of the herd?

(Just kidding by the way, COVID is very serious, but sometimes it helps to take everything with a bit of humor.)


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