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Not a good sign for gigging live. I suspect we'll hear more of these stories if opening up continues.

I'm not going to point fingers...this is really an untenable situation where there are no good solutions, period. So many people have a feeling of entitlement that they simply can't imagine the idea of shared sacrifice; they weren't raised with it and it's just not part of their worldview. Local governments have to weigh a ton of pros and cons, with uncertain outcomes.

As for live performance, maybe the way this will head is a resurgence of singer/songwriters, with a vocalist playing guitar or keyboard, and an emphasis on songwriting. It's easy to stream, easy to share. I've thought about it myself. Although I'd much rather get a band together, it's just not possible...but singing and playing guitar in my studio is doable. Sorta smile

This might also separate out the artists who can write songs that stand on their own, and who can perform with the bare essentials. I'm not saying that's good, bad, or indifferent, but it would be a change compared to the "lavish production" approach. Could be refreshing.

Now, monetizing it...that's a whole other issue, and an even tougher one that just getting music out there.

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Found out about a month ago a guy I know got covid-19 at a gig - and 30 other people. Supposedly someone died. Friend of mine got bed-ridden sick for about 2 weeks, and in the process infected his wife and in-laws, who apparently got a bit sicker than him but didn't need to be hospitalized.

Which is insane by itself, but people around my area *still think it's just the flu*. Those 30 people won't know if they've got permanent heart/kidney/brain damage, and will probably go around and brag about getting it as if there were no consequences.

I don't like Biden/Harris, but I hope they move to change the way the median i.q. are running things presently.

There should be a PSA on every tv commercial break informing people what happens to the body, in many cases permanently. People have no imagination apparently, and combined with ignorance we're "here".

There should be easier/faster ways of getting tested, AND antibody testing.


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One thing I've seen nobody bring up, maybe nobody has thought about it, but when the vaccines start happening for the general populace (January, Feb, March, hopefully) it is of the UTMOST importance that

WE DO IT RIGHT.

Meaning, when it starts happening we need U.S. MASK and DISTANCING MANDATES ON A FEDERAL LEVEL. And when it reaches the point where everyone has availability, ...


WE WILL NEED A SERIOUS LOCK DOWN.

We'll need one probably by December, but when the vaccines are readily circulating. Not for 2 weeks or a month. That won't work because of the 14 day window + 30+ possible days for infection during the run of the sickness. 2 months. Because we need to give the vaccines, which will take 28 days to receive another 10 days for seroconversion to actually happen, combined with people that already have it to let it run it's course. There will be jerks that don't want to get vaccinated, and the same anti-science jerks that will STILL discount it.


We MUST do this "post-vaccine" lock down in order to let it have a chance to burn out!.

Not just because it will be necessary for a return to normalcy, but because if we don't then the jerk anti-science anti-mask anti-vaxxers will keep it going - which could enable it to mutate by 2022 into something the vaccines won't address.


We will be seriously, permanently screwed if that happens. There won't be another gazillion $ push for a vaccine, and even if there was it would be that much more difficult to fight; and the next populace mutation could be worse thanks to bozo "Dunning-Kruger herd immunolgists" going around helping it out.



WE HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!!!!


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You're right, I haven't heard anyone bring up how the vaccine aspect needs to be handled but your points are valid.

The following is long, but I really hope people read it.

I would like to comment on one aspect, however. There is a lot of contempt toward "anti-science," "anti-vaxxer" type people. They aren't all ignorant troglodytes, they are deeply mistrustful of authority figures in general - and frankly, with good reason. The problem isn't mistrust per se, it's the lack of selectivity.

I see the situation as similar to magazine product reviews. Because some publications have essentially sold reviews to advertisers, there's a group of people who don't believe any reviews they read are valid. And when they do see a review that's well-vetted, accurate, and written without bias, they discount it anyway because their mistrust is, in fact, based on reality. They don't know how to be selective.

Same with vaccines - they can have side effects. Less than 0.1% (about 1 in 20,000) of kids who get the MMR vaccine contract thrombocytopenia purpura, where the body doesn't create enough platelets. The reason I know this is because my daughter was one of the 0.1% and her case was sufficiently severe that when she was little, she literally would have died if she had done something as simple as tripped and hit her head. Any internal bleeding would have meant death. She had severe nosebleeds that lasted for hours, and couldn't fly on airplanes without significant risk - which made for a real nail-biter when she had to fly someplace for treatment. Decades later, she still has it, but fortunately is inching closer to low-side-of-normal platelet counts. Yet she's not anti-vaccine, because a) sh*t happens, and b) if you get measles, mumps, or rubella, the odds of contracting thrombocytopenia, or other life-threatening illnesses, go way up. She'd rather be unlucky and be part of the 0.1% than see outbreaks of measles, mumps, and rubella in the general population, which would threaten her as well anyway. Then again, she's not some self-centered millennial with a sense of entitlement. She sees the bigger picture.

So it's nuanced. Someone who is anti-vaccine does have a valid. science-based reason to be apprehensive. But the irony is if they looked at all aspects of the situation, they'd realize that they need to be far more apprehensive about people not getting vaccinated. It's really a question of education, and that's where a lot of our problems lie: not taking education seriously.

The people who are pro-vaccination lose credibility when they say it's all perfectly fine and harmless, when it's not. That's why we have mistrust.

What we need is for both pro- and anti-vaccine people to tell the truth, which is: "Every person's body is different, and unwanted side effects can occur - although it's not even remotely certain that they will. However, the side effects of getting sick with what you're being vaccinated against are far, far worse, and are certain to happen. So, take your pick: small risk with downside unlikely and potentially major benefits, or major risk with downside likely and potentially major problems." I know which one I'd pick.

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It *can* be nuanced. But it isn't right now. For the most part the anti-vaxxer community presently runs on the propaganda that "Bill Gates (who has apparently massacred millions in Africa) is going to inject a microchip in people". Literally. I've heard this from in-laws, from friends, and unfortunately the vast majority of my "friends" on Facebook - even the "left wingers". They know nothing of testing protocols, they don't discern the difference between the different vaccines. It's just "I'm not getting it, Bill Gates is the anti-Christ" and then some mutterings about "the liberals". There is no nuance, it's not fear of outliers, it's brainwashing. I've heard it uttered as an aside from people with college educations, who work in professional environments, "oh yeah, the Pelosi shot!". People that, a few years ago, I would never have thought would fall for such an twisted and dumb angle, but it's VERY pervasive. They're wary of "the shot" not because of outier situations such as your own, or some sort of industrial contamination possibility, or mercury poisoning, or some previously accounted for reason - but because they "know" it's a plot.


*I'm* not eager for the Moderna or Pfizer offerings, but I would like to be first in line for the Astra Zeneca/Oxford versions - a more conventional solution. *That's* being nuanced, they're not all the same. But that's a far cry from Bill Gates + some right wing propaganda non-sense that is going to stop a LOT of people from *never* getting vaccinated, who are also the same people that take no precautions and are effectively single-person super spreaders.


If that 71 million that voted for the Red Team decides they're not going to take the "commie pussy lib hoax Bill Gates" vaccine they could negate the whole thing.


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I guess the "Bill Gates is a demon" thing came from that Netflix movie? That happened FAST. As in, within a day or two even the handful of left wing friends I have on Facebook were on the "Bill Gates massacred people" band wagon, and that has somehow been turned into "the covid vaccine is being made by Bill Gates". Nobody can explain to me how exactly, but "I'm not taking that vaccine, Bill Gates isn't going to inject me with a microchip!" is such a .... insanely pervasive thing, it's got to be the most successful meme of all time. "Bill Gates isn't a scientist, why should I listen to him?", just on and on about BILL GATES.

Right now the important thing is getting the R0 number down to where it can burn out and *vaccine acquired herd immunity* can have a chance to take hold.


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Fraudulent news can make way too many people believe whatever they want them to believe, as long as they use the time tested techniques of fear and anger.

I call it fraudulent instead of fake because their intent is fraud. And the best people and ad agencies in the business design the propaganda to make it sound believable to most anyone who doesn't know the game they play.

Last edited by Notes_Norton; 11/08/20 03:25 PM. Reason: clarification

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It's a scary time when so much information is spread so quickly with such ill intent to a populus that, in many cases through no fault of its own (rather through decades of disenfranchisement), has not been given the tools to properly decode media. I've witnessed it at both the macro and micro levels. I hope for a day in the future when more people are able to interpret critically and act in the best interests of everyone.

I look forward to a federal response to Covid that takes it seriously. Thanks, Craig, Chip, and Bob, for your thoughts.


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Originally Posted by SamuelBLupowitz
It's a scary time when so much information is spread so quickly with such ill intent to a populus that, in many cases through no fault of its own (rather through decades of disenfranchisement), has not been given the tools to properly decode media. I've witnessed it at both the macro and micro levels. I hope for a day in the future when more people are able to interpret critically and act in the best interests of everyone.

[sound of nail being hit on the head]

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There seems to be hopeful news on a vaccine. Pfizer is reporting a 90% immunity rate in their last phase of testing.

Our president-elect is assembling a team of medical experts to advise him on the actions we should take as soon as he is sworn in. That seems like a rational approach.

We're not out of the woods yet, but at least we have a ray of hope.

Notes


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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
We're not out of the woods yet, but at least we have a ray of hope.

I am glad people are optimistic. Winter is officially still 6 weeks away. I want to see where we are 5 months from now.


"Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is the best!"
Frank Zappa
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I can tell you where we'll be five months from now: April 9 smile

Spring will be in the air, the virus will be behind us, the internet will be filled with pictures of cute little fluffy kittens, my next album will have over a million views, everyone will have personal jet packs, the music industry will have a renaissance, some of the best-paying jobs will be related to music, and...

[sound of Craig waking up from dream]

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Originally Posted by Anderton
I can tell you where we'll be five months from now: April 9 smile

thank you, Nostradamus. grin


"Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is the best!"
Frank Zappa
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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by SamuelBLupowitz
It's a scary time when so much information is spread so quickly with such ill intent to a populus that, in many cases through no fault of its own (rather through decades of disenfranchisement), has not been given the tools to properly decode media. I've witnessed it at both the macro and micro levels. I hope for a day in the future when more people are able to interpret critically and act in the best interests of everyone.

[sound of nail being hit on the head]
Just as a follow-up, I had a conversation today with a former coworker who I always liked. I knew we disagreed on a least a few points politically, but I was horrified when she said "I am anti-mask and don't believe we're in a pandemic." I've been reeling from it all day. How does one reason with that? I know we all have different risk assessment with this virus, but it's one thing for you to be less afraid of going out in public or playing a bar gig than I am, and quite another to deny what is happening despite the sacrifices so many of us are making and the toll it has taken on our communities. My stomach is churning thinking about it.


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From today's Lefsetz letter:

I am a musician currently recovering from Covid. I live in Nashville and have been playing live shows here in town 1-2 times a week. I don’t know how I would pay my bills without the gigs. There is no safety net for people like me.

By the looks of Downtown Nashville on a daily basis, you would never know there’s a pandemic raging. There are lines out the door to get into my shows and nobody wears a mask inside. The culture down there is very much anti-mask, pro-party.

I was hoping for the best until I started feeling like shit. Got the test and sure enough, I was positive. So many musician friends of mine have been infected - the majority of the gigging musicians at this point at least in my circle. It’s only a matter of time until the spike in hospitalizations and deaths is unbearable here in Nashville.

Musicians here are having to make the excruciating decision of taking proper health precautions or risk not being able to pay their bills, being evicted and complete financial devastation.

I am fortunate that I will probably fully recover, however I am on pins and needles monitoring my mom’s symptoms as she was with me prior to me knowing I was infected. She’s 76. God help us.

-Jay Bragg
Nashville, TN


And another one:

As a singer, my last gig was March 11th, the day Massachusetts declared a State of Emergency. I was invited to participate in a private event for cabaret performers in May. I didn't feel comfortable. One attendee spent 2 weeks in an ICU, and 6 weeks in rehab.

It is not worth it.

But for performers, particularly singers, this soul crushing, isolating and frustrating.

We need a national mask mandate now.

Jeanne Crowley

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Originally Posted by SamuelBLupowitz
I was horrified when she said "I am anti-mask and don't believe we're in a pandemic."

Those who are concerned about the economic impact of not opening up also need to take into account the loss of productivity from large numbers of people getting sick enough to be out of work for weeks, and possibly suffering after affects for months.

I'm not saying one is more or less problematic than the other, because I don't know. But I get the feeling no one else knows either, because there hasn't been enough analysis to know a definitive answer.

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Originally Posted by Anderton
[sound of Craig waking up from dream]

I've caught myself, having just woken up for a minute, thinking things like

"I'll go get coffee" (from the Starbucks inside the local Kroger)
"I'll go walk the pup down at the river" (park, where countless anti-maskers now walk/jog)
"I'll go visit my parents" (my mother myseteriouly died of massive blood clotthing a few months ago; and I obviously I can't go around my 86 year old father)


... then I remember.

I can understand the attraction of the people that are rolling the dice and pretending nothing is happening. But one has to be smart enough to understand the consequences of gambling.


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Originally Posted by SamuelBLupowitz
[quote=Anderton][quote=SamuelBLupowitz] but it's one thing for you to be less afraid of going out in public or playing a bar gig than I am, and quite another to deny what is happening despite the sacrifices so many of us are making and the toll it has taken on our communities. My stomach is churning thinking about it.

When Eddie VH died I knew I'd get phone calls. 2 different bands called "hey, we're doing an EVH tribute, you've got to do it of course" - one was talking about an outdoor show at an Atlanta location, the other a theater.

"How do you plan on doing a rehearsal?", oh, we'll get together in the band room...
"How are you going to make everyone in the audience wear masks?" - oh, well, we're not worried about that.
"How are we going to stay distant at the gig?" - "oh man, you're not that afraid of it are you?"

I had no intentions of doing either gig, told them get back to me when the pandemic is over. But it was... sad and... typical to be presented with such a prosaic denial of what's going on. Had a conversation with one guy that ended going over a mutual friend that got COVID from a local gig where some 30 people got infected; that the guy didn't die meant it was no big deal. What of the other 30 people? What about people the other 30 infected?

I feel so insanely alienated, more than normal. I could have gone on with my life thinking the median was smarter than they are, but this year has been such a wake up call for me. It's literally insane articles in my local newspaper talk about "businesses opening up!" and more, alongside articles about schools closing because of infection, the local hospital bed count and the death toll. It's like I suddenly find myself in an alternate reality of dumb sociopaths, where science is subjective and propaganda "educates" people. The Matrix fails.


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Kudos to Ohio for being smart with a mask mandate. We've got to have a U.S. national mandate to get past this, the vaccines alone won't be enough.

..and Fauci is screwing up again babbling about the vaccines turning it around, like telling people masks are necessary. Frakking frak.


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I've been out of work since March 17. My chosen market since 1985 here in south Florida has been the Retirement and Canadian Winter Visitor population. It' was a good, steady market, but there is nothing right now. The Canada/US border is closed, and my 55+ year old audience is not going out.

But I'm lucky to be out of work.

A friend of mine who plays to a younger audience was gigging. 3 People in his quartet were hospitalized with COVID. One of them died. My friend has had a fever for 2 weeks now and doesn't want to get tested. I think he's being foolish, but I'm on the outside looking in via e-mail.

IMO This open the economy, COVID is just the flu, herd immunity is the answer, attitude isn't working. We don't know if we will get either herd immunity or herd slaughter. We never got herd immunity from another coronavirus, the common cold. Perhaps the new promising vaccines will help. I hope so.

I dreamed I was gigging at a Yacht Club that I often gig at. The ladies were in gowns, the gents in tuxedos and people started coughing and leaving. Leilani and I tried to leave but the road we cam in on was blocked, and we ended up driving somewhere I didn't recognize and we were lost. I guess it's interpreted as my fear of gigging right now when I know others are losing COVID Roulette.

I can't wait to gig again, but I'm in no hurry to play COVID Roulette.

Our new president-elect is amassing a panel of experts in communicable diseases. I hope they can help us out of this mess. Only time will tell.

Insights and incites by Notes


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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
"I'll go walk the pup down at the river" (park, where countless anti-maskers now walk/jog)
I think you're making an incorrect assumption here.

Quote
Face coverings or masks shall not be required:

During outdoor physical activity if the individual remains six feet apart from other persons
Source: Augusta’s mayor mandates masks by executive order

I've not yet found a mask order that requires one while exercising outdoors. I run all the time, I never wear a mask, though sometimes depending on where I'm running I have a gaiter that I can pull up if I need to. I keep my distance from other people as much as possible. Please don't assume that people who are exercising outdoors are anti-mask. I couldn't possibly run with a mask on all the time.

Last edited by Joe Muscara; 11/13/20 02:42 PM. Reason: added info about mask orders

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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
"I'll go walk the pup down at the river" (park, where countless anti-maskers now walk/jog)
I think you're making an incorrect assumption here.

That people don't wear masks where I'm talking about?

Or that it's "safe" to walk through the exhalation of a jogger going past?

Or that it's arbitrary whether one wears a mask, as opposed to an individual's attempt at protecting others around them?



Quote
Face coverings or masks shall not be required:

During outdoor physical activity if the individual remains six feet apart from other persons


Ok, what does that have to do with my point?




Kudos to Mayor Davis for doing the right thing, except there is no enforcement and is ignored.


Quote
I've not yet found a mask order that requires one while exercising outdoors.



.... and that has what bearing on my post?

Quote
I run all the time, I never wear a mask, though sometimes depending on where I'm running I have a gaiter that I can pull up if I need to. I keep my distance from other people as much as possible. Please don't assume that people who are exercising outdoors are anti-mask.


If you don't wear one when you're around people..... you are anti-mask by default.

Quote
I couldn't possibly run with a mask on all the time.


A) that's not true.
B) you don't HAVE to run where other people are.

Last edited by Chip McDonald; 11/13/20 03:05 PM.

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Your point seemed to be that you saw people at the park without masks and you assumed they were anti-mask. That's not necessarily true. As I said, I haven't found a mask requirement for people exercising outdoors.

And YOU CANNOT tell ME that I *can* run with a mask on. You have no idea. If you can do it, more power to you. I'd pass out.

But dude, believe it or not, I'm on your side on this issue. I haven't done squat since this damned thing started. The last band I played with has asked me several times to get together with them and I have turned them down, and they have done a few gigs(!) in the past couple of months. I don't go in places without a mask on, and I see jackasses going places without masks and it pisses me off. And I've rarely gone in anywhere. Even with masks, I get annoyed when people walk too close to me. I don't know when I'll be willing to do anything again, even with masks.

But if you want to keep alienating those who are on your side, good luck with that.

"bis ass windbag" grin


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I'm kind of lucky, because I can take maskless 2 or 3 mile walks and not run into anyone. But if I have to go to a populated area for some reason, I wear a mask.

People around here are pretty much conforming to the mask thing. I think for some people it's more about showing solidarity than thinking it will make a difference, but they do it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
Your point seemed to be that you saw people at the park without masks and you assumed they were anti-mask. That's not necessarily true. As I said, I haven't found a mask requirement for people exercising outdoors.


Do you know what paraphrasing is? Do you understand one can describe a summation of a scene without trying to cover 100% of a perfect description? Probably not. If people are congregating in groups without masks, walking alongside other people without wearing masks, they are not thinking about wearing masks when they should be. A "mask requirement" not being present is exactly my point: you don't need a mask requirement if you're being conscientious and responsible. They're not wearing a mask because they don't want to, they're not thinking about those around them. By default they're anti-mask.

The virus doesn't care about "mask requirements". Everyone knows at this point they should stay apart from each other, and wear masks around other people. If they choose not to it's not because there isn't a mask requirement.


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And YOU CANNOT tell ME that I *can* run with a mask on. You have no idea. If you can do it, more power to you. I'd pass out.

I can, unless you need to go to the ER because you have a problem with your lungs. I do have an idea. If you're fit enough to run you're fit enough to wear a mask without passing out. It's fact. It's proven. People magically do it all the time.

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But if you want to keep alienating those who are on your side, good luck with that.

I do not care about alienating the irresponsible. If you feel I'm addressing you I can't help that.


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"bis ass windbag" grin


Bruce was defending me with that statement here long ago. But there is no requirement for you to know that so I understand.


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Originally Posted by Anderton
I'm kind of lucky, because I can take maskless 2 or 3 mile walks and not run into anyone. But if I have to go to a populated area for some reason, I wear a mask.

People around here are pretty much conforming to the mask thing. I think for some people it's more about showing solidarity than thinking it will make a difference, but they do it anyway.


Nashville is mature as a town. People there are proud of their city, and I think in turn act responsibly and don't exhibit the "YOU AIN'T TELLIN' ME WHAT I'M GONNA DO!!!" reflex because of that. It's why I think New York turned their situation around so fast and so well; you see footage on the street in Manhattan and everyone is wearing a mask, they're responding as a social unit that has been "impuned".

My area, not so much....


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Originally Posted by Anderton
I'm kind of lucky, because I can take maskless 2 or 3 mile walks and not run into anyone.
My wife and I walk (and I run) maskless all around our neighborhood and adjoining ones. We do see lots of people, but they're either on the other side of the street, or if they're on the same side, there's plenty of room to take a wide berth around them. Most others seem to be doing the same. It's actually kind of funny, when we go to areas where there is a sidewalk, it's often a "race" to see who will step off the sidewalk and give the others room first. Especially when I'm alone running, I'm always trying to do that but the guy with the dog or whoever often beats me to it. smile




Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
Originally Posted by Joe Muscara
Your point seemed to be that you saw people at the park without masks and you assumed they were anti-mask. That's not necessarily true. As I said, I haven't found a mask requirement for people exercising outdoors.


Do you know what paraphrasing is? Do you understand one can describe a summation of a scene without trying to cover 100% of a perfect description? Probably not.
facepalm
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If people are congregating in groups without masks, walking alongside other people without wearing masks, they are not thinking about wearing masks when they should be. A "mask requirement" not being present is exactly my point: you don't need a mask requirement if you're being conscientious and responsible. They're not wearing a mask because they don't want to, they're not thinking about those around them. By default they're anti-mask.

The virus doesn't care about "mask requirements". Everyone knows at this point they should stay apart from each other, and wear masks around other people. If they choose not to it's not because there isn't a mask requirement.
I was quoting the mask requirement to show that they all say they're not required when doing outdoor physical activity and you keep your distance. I wasn't saying the mask requirement was the only reason people should be wearing masks, nor was I using it to say that they defined exactly and every case they should be wearing one.

To me, mask orders are like seatbelt laws or texting while driving laws. They are something we all should (or shouldn't) be doing, but having the law or order makes people more aware of the right thing to do and in the case of masks, when. It's another way to get the word out and to make people think about it.


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And YOU CANNOT tell ME that I *can* run with a mask on. You have no idea. If you can do it, more power to you. I'd pass out.

I can, unless you need to go to the ER because you have a problem with your lungs. I do have an idea. If you're fit enough to run you're fit enough to wear a mask without passing out. It's fact. It's proven. People magically do it all the time.
Are you a runner or athlete?

It's a funny thing, I haven't seen a single runner around here wearing a mask. As many as I have seen since this started, the odds that they're all inconsiderate or anti-mask seems pretty low. No, we're all outdoors and most of us do a good job keeping our distance. Granted, I haven't gone to the big parks where I've heard that it has been quite crowded at times, and I go very early both for the cooler temps and the lighter crowds. I keep my distance. So do they.

I also just did a search about running with a mask, and every article I saw said you can do it, but it's more difficult. As I said, I bring a neck gaiter when I think there's a chance I might have a crowd to deal with, but I haven't actually needed it yet.

If what you saw at your park is like what I've heard happening at some of our big parks, where it was crowded and people weren't wearing masks anyway (the part you, uh, paraphrased rolleyes ), then I agree with you that those people should be masked. OTOH, I cannot say if the ladies I see running together in the morning are in the same bubble, or just think it's okay, or they're generally keeping distance from each other on their run.

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By default they're anti-mask.
When you have people around saying stupid crap about their rights to not wear a mask, refusing to wear one indoors, saying they don't think there's a pandemic, etc. [see Sam's post above], and you group in people who are outdoors and don't think or realize they need to wear a mask in that case, I think grouping them together by calling them anti-mask does you and your cause a disservice. Do you know how many of them conscientiously wear a mask in all other cases they should be wearing one? If you told those people they were anti-mask because they didn't wear one at the park all you probably would do would be to make them mad at you. If instead you said, "hey, when it's crowded like it is here, it's a good idea to mask up as well because you can't keep a distance," they're much more likely to go, "oh yeah, you're probably right."

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But if you want to keep alienating those who are on your side, good luck with that.

I do not care about alienating the irresponsible. If you feel I'm addressing you I can't help that.
Which means my point above about calling them anti-mask doesn't matter to you. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, but you do you, boo. wink grin

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"big ass windbag" grin


Bruce was defending me with that statement here long ago. But there is no requirement for you to know that so I understand.
I was just having fun with you on that one. smile


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I walk briskly up and down my dead-end street for exercise and do not wear a mask. 20 laps = 4 miles and there is a steep grade at one end.

I'll talk to neighbors if they are out, but stay more than 6 feet away and never downwind. Other than that, if I go out, I wear a mask.

IMHO It's the civilized and patriotic thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
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I run all the time, I never wear a mask, though sometimes depending on where I'm running I have a gaiter that I can pull up if I need to. I keep my distance from other people as much as possible. Please don't assume that people who are exercising outdoors are anti-mask.


If you don't wear one when you're around people..... you are anti-mask by default.

I'm one of the most pro-mask people you might find, but someone taking their mask off for running does NOT make them anti-mask. Fact is, I'm very pro-mask, but if I'm out hiking in the woods, or biking on a trail, I'm not generally going to wear a mask. I have one with me, but unless I run into a crowd of people, I don't use it. Yeah, we have the airborne droplets that stay suspended up to 30 minutes now. The thing is, that's going to be virtually everywhere now. IF I do run into a bunch of people, I will usually go off the trail a ways until they pass. I know there's an issue with exhalations from joggers etc when in proximity. You don't have to be in proximity, that's your choice as a jogger or biker or whatever. Be considerate.

My point is, taking off a mask to exercise is in no way an indication of being anti-mask. Not to mention that we were told for months that they weren't really needed much outdoors with the wind and all.

Oh, also...if you think only fit people exercise, you've just negated a lot of doctors and their advice for helping people regain a healthy lifestyle.

I agree with Joe...all this does is alienate people on the same pro-mask pro-science side, which is the last thing we need.

Last edited by Mighty Motif Max; 11/16/20 05:26 AM.

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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
We've got to have a U.S. national mandate to get past this, the vaccines alone won't be enough..

Chip, your thought about a national mandate is logical but totally wrong. This is a bit of a rant because it's not just you Chip, this is for so many people here who think the feds can just snap their fingers and do anything they want. There are a lot of folks from around the world here and that's true in many countries but not the US. There is no such thing in federal law. It's called States Rights which is why our name is the United States. We're a Republic not a simple federal democracy.. I know civics and how our constitutional system works is not taught any more in schools unless you're in law school but still, for someone who is pretty intelligent, writes well, didn't you do the most basic research on this question? This is only one of many articles on this subject:

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/02/8252...-order-a-national-quarantine-experts-say

The President or any other federal official has no authority to impose some kind of national mask or shut down mandate. It's totally up to the states. Remember when Trump declared a national emergency so he could send troops to the Mexican border? I'm sure you loved that, right? Well, the point is that's about as far as a President can go.. Remember how Oregon and the city of Portland totally ignored the federal marshals going to Portland? Those marshals got zero help from the state or local governments. Biden could I suppose, declare a national emergency and deploy thousands of various federal law enforcement agents like the FBI, ATF, DEA and other federal agents to localities in every state looking for violators but do you really think having an FBI agent arrest some shop owner for violating a federal mask ordinance would go over very well? And, exactly which federal ordinance would they be violating in the first place? Show me the federal law that gives the feds authority to shut down a local shop owner or ticket someone walking down the sidewalk without a mask based on a Presidential declaration. Want more proof of that? Look at the sanctuary cities and states who refuse to work with federal ICE agents and the federal government can do squat about it. Since all that has been in the news for years and these issues have been to court many times especially with Trump, where have you been? You think because it will soon be Biden that makes some kind of difference?

The state governors are gonna do what they're gonna do and all the President can do is make suggestions.

Bob.


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