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clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?


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The B-3X software Hammond has more folks thinking about good organ midi controllers. This topic has been touched on in a few threads I know of, including this one:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3030835/midi-keyboard-for-organ-playing

 

What would be really helpful is to get test data folks with different Hammond clones. Which ones send midi from the high trigger point?

 

Whether it's cost-effective to get a used clone just to have high trigger when playing software is a separate question, and probably depends on what pops up in the used classifieds. But before you get to that question one needs to know the options.

 

Also not intended for discussion is whether people who want high trigger are wussies blaming their instrument for their lack of talent (to state it most provocatively). Again, this thread is just to identify options.

 

As far as I know, the only keyboards that send high trigger for internal sounds are waterfall key organ clones. The ones I can think of offhand are:

 

Korg CX-3/BX-3 (which does send high trigger, according to one report)

Roland VK-8, VR700, VR730 (VR09=terrible action)

Numa

Electro

Hammond XK's and SK's

Vox Continental

Crumar Mojo

Viscount Legend

 

I'm probably missing a few.

 

 

Obviously, to test this, you'd need to midi it up. If you don't have a module, maybe it works to midi the keyboard to itself? Dunno.

 

The Mojo 61 does not send high trigger midi. However, I'd say it's "normal" trigger point is sort of mid-stroke. Works pretty well for playing the B-3X but the difference from high trigger is noticeable.

 

Thanks for participating!

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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Numa Organ does not send MIDI at high trigger point. 99% sure the Nord Electro/Stage don't either... but the dedicated Nord organs like the C2 might...?

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When I had a Roland VR-760 it had an option for high trigger. Not sure about the newer Roland keyboards. The Crumar instrument feature high trigger as does the Genuine Soundware DMC-122.

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The Electro 4D sends high trigger midi when an internal organ patch is selected.

Good to know! The Electros may vary by model here.

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The Mojo 61 does not send high trigger midi.

 

It's not what the user's manual says (page 31).

 

And you also missed the GSi DMC-122 from your list, which is probably the only dual manual organ controller around.

Guido, good to hear from you! Are you and yours holding up okay?

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So high trigger thru midi means that the controller sends midi velocity of 127 no matter how you press the keys?

 

I was interpreting it to mean that the note triggers when the physical key is only slightly depressed, i.e. a "high trigger point".

I just re-checked, and in the case of the VK-8, it emits MIDI notes at velocity 100, not 127, and you can get a stream of them generated when you flutter a key lightly and repeatedly.

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The Mojo 61 does not send high trigger midi.

 

It's not what the user's manual says (page 31).

 

And you also missed the GSi DMC-122 from your list, which is probably the only dual manual organ controller around.

 

Guido, you're correct about the Mojo 61 manual. Here's what it says:

 

KEYBOARD VELOCITY

Mojo 61 can send notes with or without velocity according to the instrument selected with the Type button n. 22. If VB3 or Combo Organ is selected, notes are sent with a fixed velocity value of 127 but the first key contact is used (fast key triggering). If Pipe Organ or EP is selected, velocity is sent. Key-off velocity is always sent. Any transposition or octave shifting applied to the internal sound generator is also applied to the transmitted note messages.

 

However, that contrasts with what I'm experiencing on my fully updated Mojo 61. Right now I have the Mojo triggering B-3X and Neosoul Keys on my ipad. B-3X is set to channel 1 which corresponds to the upper half of a VB3 split. Mojo internal sounds are running into the same mixer. When I press a key, the first sound triggered is the Mojo internal. A few millimeters below that the B-3X is triggered. The separation is fairly small, but it's distinct. On channel 2 in the lower half of the VB3 split, the Neosoul key sounds are triggered at the same point as the B-3X, and those triggerings are velocity sensitive. This is a good thing, as otherwise you couldn't play organ and piano together realistically.

 

Interesting, Al, about the Electro 4D. If I recall, splitting wasn't available until the 5D, and the 5D could send on 2 midi channels. I'd be curious whether the 5D could send high trigger notes on half the split and normal velocity-sensitive notes on the other half.

 

Edit: the Electro 5 manual says you can send on one global channel for the whole keyboard can send on only the upper part of a split, but cannot send one both sides of a split.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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So high trigger thru midi means that the controller sends midi velocity of 127 no matter how you press the keys?

 

I was interpreting it to mean that the note triggers when the physical key is only slightly depressed, i.e. a "high trigger point".

I just re-checked, and in the case of the VK-8, it emits MIDI notes at velocity 100, not 127, and you can get a stream of them generated when you flutter a key lightly and repeatedly.

 

This is correct. A real Hammond starts triggering within about the first 3/16" of a white key depression, and total key dip is only about 3/8". So high trigger point means sending Note On when the top key sensor is activated. Whatever velocity value it sends doesn't matter if you are controlling an organ clone, which typically ignores velocity.

Moe

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"What would be really helpful is to get test data folks with different Hammond clones. Which ones send midi from the high trigger point?"

 

I'm confuse: please educate me. How does one use midi to determine a "trigger point"? I am unaware of a midi message/value that recognizes or senses the trigger point of the depressed key.

 

And to me is seems midi velocity is a very different thing from the keyboard trigger point.

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However, that contrasts with what I'm experiencing on my fully updated Mojo 61. [...]

 

Check this: in the editor's home page there's a global setting "TX Velocity", set it to Panel to work as described in the manual. If you've set that to Always, velocity is always sent regardless the instrument selected; if it's set to Never, velocity is never sent and the high trigger point is always used.

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I've just verified that my Kurzweil PC4 sends midi from the high trigger point only when a KB3 program is active for that key. In this case note on velocity seems to be fixed at 64 but note off velocity is variable.

Kurzweil PC4, Expressive E Osmose, UNO Synth Pro, Hammond B-3X on iPad, Rhodes Mark II Stage 73, ART 710-A MK4s

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However, that contrasts with what I'm experiencing on my fully updated Mojo 61. [...]

 

Check this: in the editor's home page there's a global setting "TX Velocity", set it to Panel to work as described in the manual. If you've set that to Always, velocity is always sent regardless the instrument selected; if it's set to Never, velocity is never sent and the high trigger point is always used.

 

OK, got it. So yes, Mojo can send high trigger either: 1) only, 2) never, or 3) only when organ is selected.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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The C2D in Low mode sends a variable velocity message. In High mode it sends a message with a velocity of 100.

 

The C2D supports a split in the lower manual, and midi out on 3 channels: upper manual, lower manual high-split, lower manual low-split. However, it does not allow you to have different high-low settings among them; one choice covers all manuals/splits. if you want velocity info (low trigger) for LH bass maybe to drive some bass rompler, and high trigger for everything else, no joy. Do any other clonewheels allow this?

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Guido, good to hear from you! Are you and yours holding up okay?

 

Thanks for asking. We're all fine... maybe only a bit depressed, you know... :(

 

Good to hear! Somewhat off topic (sorry to the original poster) -- but after spending 135 nights in hotels last year (sales), I'm really digging the extra time I can spend with my Mojo 61!

 

Now! Back to our regular programming..................

 

Old No7

Yamaha MODX6 * Hammond SK Pro 73 * Roland Fantom-08 * Crumar Mojo Pedals * Mackie Thump 12As * Tascam DP-24SD * JBL 305 MkIIs

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Hopefully someone with a Hammond XK or SK weighs in here. Of the waterfall key clones, the Hammonds appear to have the most sophisticated midi out capabilities, on paper at least. 3 external zones with flexible parameters, including different levels of velocity sensitivity send. What's not apparent in the manual is whether it sends on high trigger.

 

Bradley I agree it would be way cool if a clone could send on high and low trigger simultaneously for different zones. The Mojo can high trigger internal organ sounds while sending velocity sensitive midi to an external source. So it sounds like it can do what the C2D cannot. However, the Mojo's midi out mode has to be the same for both channels, can't mix and match.

 

I apologies if I'm messing up some of the terminology. I'm the furthest thing from a midi expert.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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The Electro 4D sends high trigger midi when an internal organ patch is selected.

Good to know! The Electros may vary by model here.

 

Electro 5D does not transmit High Trigger even if the whole keyboard is only playing organ

Roland VR730 does transmit High Trigger but not if layered/split with other sections

Roland VR700 transmits High Trigger on the organ section even when split with other sections - I think it even transmits the High Trigger in layer mode

BTW - I thought the VR700 was great for organ (nice drawbars too) but I think the lower keyboard felt was worn (if Roland used one that is) - when the key hit the bottom of the travel it felt hard, did not give at all.

 

I think someone posted recently that the XK3 sent High trigger when velocity was turned off for percussion.

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Bumping this thread so that a few more clonewheelers might see it and respond. Although I think we did cover the waterfront pretty well already.

 

For me an ideal controller would be able to send high trigger and velocity sensitive non-high trigger on separate zones. I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist and probably never will.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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  • 2 months later...

Nord Stage 3 and Vox Continental do not send MIDI high trigger.

 

Dexibell J7 (and presumably S9, which has basically the same software) do.

 

How Dexibell and Kurzweil handle it is discussed in more detail in message #3050377 in the Vox Continental thread at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3050377/re-new-vox-continental-some-thoughts#Post3050377

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Good to know - I don't get to see many pro boards anymore where I live.

 

More companies should adopt this.

 

I would like to see more boards offer velocity curves per patch, as well as this type of trigger choice. How you want a piano to respond is very different from a clav, and from strings etc. Velocity control of amp and filter can only shape so much. And for the average user/player, adjusting the velocity curve per patch would be an easier tweak compared to reshaping the response of multiple envelopes. But I digress... carry on!

 

Jerry

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The Electro 4D sends high trigger midi when an internal organ patch is selected. I use my E4D with an HX3 Expander Module. Great rig (after I swapped in lighter springs)!

 

Same thing with my Electro 3 73. I used it as my MIDI controller for my Roland XV-5050 for many years, until I replaced my XV-5050 with an FA-07.

If any type of piano sound is selected on the Electro 3, the MIDI send is normal.

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