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clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
#3034832 03/24/20 03:24 PM
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The B-3X software Hammond has more folks thinking about good organ midi controllers. This topic has been touched on in a few threads I know of, including this one:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3030835/midi-keyboard-for-organ-playing

What would be really helpful is to get test data folks with different Hammond clones. Which ones send midi from the high trigger point?

Whether it's cost-effective to get a used clone just to have high trigger when playing software is a separate question, and probably depends on what pops up in the used classifieds. But before you get to that question one needs to know the options.

Also not intended for discussion is whether people who want high trigger are wussies blaming their instrument for their lack of talent (to state it most provocatively). Again, this thread is just to identify options.

As far as I know, the only keyboards that send high trigger for internal sounds are waterfall key organ clones. The ones I can think of offhand are:

Korg CX-3/BX-3 (which does send high trigger, according to one report)
Roland VK-8, VR700, VR730 (VR09=terrible action)
Numa
Electro
Hammond XK's and SK's
Vox Continental
Crumar Mojo
Viscount Legend

I'm probably missing a few.


Obviously, to test this, you'd need to midi it up. If you don't have a module, maybe it works to midi the keyboard to itself? Dunno.

The Mojo 61 does not send high trigger midi. However, I'd say it's "normal" trigger point is sort of mid-stroke. Works pretty well for playing the B-3X but the difference from high trigger is noticeable.

Thanks for participating!


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034840 03/24/20 04:09 PM
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I use my Roland VK-8 to control various VST organs (VB3, Blue3, Arturia's offering) and I'm pretty damn' sure the high trigger carries through to MIDI notes.

Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034842 03/24/20 04:14 PM
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the nord c1 sends midi at the high trigger point , we used it as a controller for the keyb EXP expander

Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034843 03/24/20 04:14 PM
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Numa Organ does not send MIDI at high trigger point. 99% sure the Nord Electro/Stage don't either... but the dedicated Nord organs like the C2 might...?


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034862 03/24/20 05:44 PM
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The Electro 4D sends high trigger midi when an internal organ patch is selected. I use my E4D with an HX3 Expander Module. Great rig (after I swapped in lighter springs)!

Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034864 03/24/20 05:52 PM
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So high trigger thru midi means that the controller sends midi velocity of 127 no matter how you press the keys?

Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034865 03/24/20 06:03 PM
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When I had a Roland VR-760 it had an option for high trigger. Not sure about the newer Roland keyboards. The Crumar instrument feature high trigger as does the Genuine Soundware DMC-122.


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Al Quinn #3034869 03/24/20 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Quinn
The Electro 4D sends high trigger midi when an internal organ patch is selected.
Good to know! The Electros may vary by model here.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034876 03/24/20 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
The Mojo 61 does not send high trigger midi.

It's not what the user's manual says (page 31).

And you also missed the GSi DMC-122 from your list, which is probably the only dual manual organ controller around.

Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
ZioGuido #3034881 03/24/20 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ZioGuido
Originally Posted by Adan
The Mojo 61 does not send high trigger midi.

It's not what the user's manual says (page 31).

And you also missed the GSi DMC-122 from your list, which is probably the only dual manual organ controller around.
Guido, good to hear from you! Are you and yours holding up okay?


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
mobi #3034882 03/24/20 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mobi
So high trigger thru midi means that the controller sends midi velocity of 127 no matter how you press the keys?

I was interpreting it to mean that the note triggers when the physical key is only slightly depressed, i.e. a "high trigger point".
I just re-checked, and in the case of the VK-8, it emits MIDI notes at velocity 100, not 127, and you can get a stream of them generated when you flutter a key lightly and repeatedly.

Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
ZioGuido #3034883 03/24/20 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ZioGuido
Originally Posted by Adan
The Mojo 61 does not send high trigger midi.

It's not what the user's manual says (page 31).

And you also missed the GSi DMC-122 from your list, which is probably the only dual manual organ controller around.

Guido, you're correct about the Mojo 61 manual. Here's what it says:

KEYBOARD VELOCITY
Mojo 61 can send notes with or without velocity according to the instrument selected with the Type button n. 22. If VB3 or Combo Organ is selected, notes are sent with a fixed velocity value of 127 but the first key contact is used (fast key triggering). If Pipe Organ or EP is selected, velocity is sent. Key-off velocity is always sent. Any transposition or octave shifting applied to the internal sound generator is also applied to the transmitted note messages.

However, that contrasts with what I'm experiencing on my fully updated Mojo 61. Right now I have the Mojo triggering B-3X and Neosoul Keys on my ipad. B-3X is set to channel 1 which corresponds to the upper half of a VB3 split. Mojo internal sounds are running into the same mixer. When I press a key, the first sound triggered is the Mojo internal. A few millimeters below that the B-3X is triggered. The separation is fairly small, but it's distinct. On channel 2 in the lower half of the VB3 split, the Neosoul key sounds are triggered at the same point as the B-3X, and those triggerings are velocity sensitive. This is a good thing, as otherwise you couldn't play organ and piano together realistically.

Interesting, Al, about the Electro 4D. If I recall, splitting wasn't available until the 5D, and the 5D could send on 2 midi channels. I'd be curious whether the 5D could send high trigger notes on half the split and normal velocity-sensitive notes on the other half.

Edit: the Electro 5 manual says you can send on one global channel for the whole keyboard can send on only the upper part of a split, but cannot send one both sides of a split.

Last edited by Adan; 03/24/20 07:14 PM.

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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
StickMan393 #3034885 03/24/20 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by StickMan393
Originally Posted by mobi
So high trigger thru midi means that the controller sends midi velocity of 127 no matter how you press the keys?

I was interpreting it to mean that the note triggers when the physical key is only slightly depressed, i.e. a "high trigger point".
I just re-checked, and in the case of the VK-8, it emits MIDI notes at velocity 100, not 127, and you can get a stream of them generated when you flutter a key lightly and repeatedly.

This is correct. A real Hammond starts triggering within about the first 3/16" of a white key depression, and total key dip is only about 3/8". So high trigger point means sending Note On when the top key sensor is activated. Whatever velocity value it sends doesn't matter if you are controlling an organ clone, which typically ignores velocity.


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034887 03/24/20 07:49 PM
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I can report the Nord Stage 2 definitely does not transmit midi from the high trigger.

aL


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034895 03/24/20 09:10 PM
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"What would be really helpful is to get test data folks with different Hammond clones. Which ones send midi from the high trigger point?"

I'm confuse: please educate me. How does one use midi to determine a "trigger point"? I am unaware of a midi message/value that recognizes or senses the trigger point of the depressed key.

And to me is seems midi velocity is a very different thing from the keyboard trigger point.


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
samuelblupowitz #3034897 03/24/20 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by samuelblupowitz
Guido, good to hear from you! Are you and yours holding up okay?

Thanks for asking. We're all fine... maybe only a bit depressed, you know... frown

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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034899 03/24/20 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Adan
However, that contrasts with what I'm experiencing on my fully updated Mojo 61. [...]

Check this: in the editor's home page there's a global setting "TX Velocity", set it to Panel to work as described in the manual. If you've set that to Always, velocity is always sent regardless the instrument selected; if it's set to Never, velocity is never sent and the high trigger point is always used.

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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034908 03/24/20 09:37 PM
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I've just verified that my Kurzweil PC4 sends midi from the high trigger point only when a KB3 program is active for that key. In this case note on velocity seems to be fixed at 64 but note off velocity is variable.


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
ZioGuido #3034920 03/24/20 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ZioGuido
Originally Posted by Adan
However, that contrasts with what I'm experiencing on my fully updated Mojo 61. [...]

Check this: in the editor's home page there's a global setting "TX Velocity", set it to Panel to work as described in the manual. If you've set that to Always, velocity is always sent regardless the instrument selected; if it's set to Never, velocity is never sent and the high trigger point is always used.

OK, got it. So yes, Mojo can send high trigger either: 1) only, 2) never, or 3) only when organ is selected.


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
AnotherScott #3034925 03/24/20 11:35 PM
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I can confirm that my Electro4SW has high trigger point when an organ patch is selected on the Electro. (triggering HX3)


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
BbAltered #3034932 03/25/20 12:44 AM
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The C2D in Low mode sends a variable velocity message. In High mode it sends a message with a velocity of 100.

The C2D supports a split in the lower manual, and midi out on 3 channels: upper manual, lower manual high-split, lower manual low-split. However, it does not allow you to have different high-low settings among them; one choice covers all manuals/splits. if you want velocity info (low trigger) for LH bass maybe to drive some bass rompler, and high trigger for everything else, no joy. Do any other clonewheels allow this?

Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
ZioGuido #3034933 03/25/20 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ZioGuido
Originally Posted by samuelblupowitz
Guido, good to hear from you! Are you and yours holding up okay?

Thanks for asking. We're all fine... maybe only a bit depressed, you know... frown

Good to hear! Somewhat off topic (sorry to the original poster) -- but after spending 135 nights in hotels last year (sales), I'm really digging the extra time I can spend with my Mojo 61!

Now! Back to our regular programming..................

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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034935 03/25/20 01:00 AM
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Hopefully someone with a Hammond XK or SK weighs in here. Of the waterfall key clones, the Hammonds appear to have the most sophisticated midi out capabilities, on paper at least. 3 external zones with flexible parameters, including different levels of velocity sensitivity send. What's not apparent in the manual is whether it sends on high trigger.

Bradley I agree it would be way cool if a clone could send on high and low trigger simultaneously for different zones. The Mojo can high trigger internal organ sounds while sending velocity sensitive midi to an external source. So it sounds like it can do what the C2D cannot. However, the Mojo's midi out mode has to be the same for both channels, can't mix and match.

I apologies if I'm messing up some of the terminology. I'm the furthest thing from a midi expert.


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034969 03/25/20 11:18 AM
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I've just tested it on my Viscount Legend Solo as controller for VB3 and can confirm the Legend line does send midi on high trigger.


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Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3034973 03/25/20 11:34 AM
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i know the xk-3c also transmits on the high trigger point , dont know about the xk-3

Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
AnotherScott #3034974 03/25/20 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by Al Quinn
The Electro 4D sends high trigger midi when an internal organ patch is selected.
Good to know! The Electros may vary by model here.

Electro 5D does not transmit High Trigger even if the whole keyboard is only playing organ
Roland VR730 does transmit High Trigger but not if layered/split with other sections
Roland VR700 transmits High Trigger on the organ section even when split with other sections - I think it even transmits the High Trigger in layer mode
BTW - I thought the VR700 was great for organ (nice drawbars too) but I think the lower keyboard felt was worn (if Roland used one that is) - when the key hit the bottom of the travel it felt hard, did not give at all.

I think someone posted recently that the XK3 sent High trigger when velocity was turned off for percussion.

Last edited by ChazKeys; 03/25/20 11:49 AM.
Re: clone owners please report which send high trigger midi?
Adan #3035465 03/28/20 03:04 PM
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Bumping this thread so that a few more clonewheelers might see it and respond. Although I think we did cover the waterfront pretty well already.

For me an ideal controller would be able to send high trigger and velocity sensitive non-high trigger on separate zones. I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist and probably never will.


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