Casio piano action

[Radagast]

Interesting video about the action on Casio"s PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 pianos.

 

[Biggles]

Interesting indeed.

 

James Paval does produce some of the most excellent online reviews and this is certainly one of them.

 

 

[Dockeys]

Interesting video about the action on Casio"s PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 pianos.

 

 

 

I always assumed the white keys would need more weight for them to depress as they are larger, are made up of more material and thus heavier?

[Tom Bear]

I saw the review too.

 

I just bought the PX-S1000. I also noticed that the black keys are a bit lighter - especially in the middle of the keyboard. But then I hadn't given it any importance at all. I have hardly any experience.

 

But James and his clear recommendation to other pianos irritated me. Because I could still return the instrument for free.

 

It would interest me: Those of you who have more experience playing the piano Is the characteristic James noticed (black keys lighter than the white ones) really a problem - or only for really good pianists like James? As experienced pianists, how do you get along with the PX-S keyboard?

 

And more specifically: Should I switch to the Roland FP-10?

 

Thanks and sorry for asking. But James Video has made me uncertain.

[Biggles]

I saw the review too.

 

I just bought the PX-S1000. I also noticed that the black keys are a bit lighter - especially in the middle of the keyboard. But then I hadn't given it any importance at all. I have hardly any experience.

 

But James and his clear recommendation to other pianos irritated me. Because I could still return the instrument for free.

 

It would interest me: Those of you who have more experience playing the piano Is the characteristic James noticed (black keys lighter than the white ones) really a problem - or only for really good pianists like James? As experienced pianists, how do you get along with the PX-S keyboard?

 

And more specifically: Should I switch to the Roland FP-10?

 

Thanks and sorry for asking. But James Video has made me uncertain.

 

Tom

 

There is a long thread on the S1000/3000 .

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3029028/Searchpage/2/Main/195415/Words/Casio/Search/true/re-casio-privia-px-s1000-900-and-s3000-1200#Post3029028

 

I tried the S1000 & S3000, Yamaha P125, Roland FP 10 & FP30 and the S1000 would be the least likely one that I would buy.

 

I found the keybed action of the Casio"s not to my liking compared to the other DP"s listed and the piano sounds were surpassed by both the Roland and Yamaha models.

 

The Roland"s for me had the better action but the Yamaha had the best piano sounds, yes it is subjective and just my opinion based upon my actual playing of the models that I listed but I did find the Casio better than the two Korg models that I also played. Overall though it was close between them all (except for the Korg B2 which has a terrible keybed) and in the end I went with Yamaha P121 entirely due to being smaller with only 73 keys and its lightweight, so far it has not disappointed me.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Jazz+]

I thought all acoustic piano keys get slightly heavier towards the fall board, no?

[timwat]

Full disclosure, I occasionally do contract dealer training for Casio, which is why I've got a loaner S3000 I have to return soon. It won NAMM "Dealer's Choice" award last year I think.

 

That said, I'm still gigging the S3000. I use it exclusively for acoustic piano sounds, in solo piano, piano trio, and jazz ensembles. For that usage, I find the piano tone warm and balanced from top to bottom in a way my CP4 isn't. While I prefer the action of the CP4, I don't have any trouble playing expressively on the Casio, and the warmer tone, much lighter weight and internal speakers means I haven't gigged the Yamaha since getting my hands on the Casio. I find it allows me to "speak", and use more of my acoustic piano vocabulary, if that makes any sense.

 

In a perfect world, every one of my gigs would have a house piano like the magnificent Steinway D I get to play for my upcoming American Idol alumni gigs. But real life means I normally schlep DP and amplification. Clearly, I'm not as discriminating as the reviewer, just a normal pedestrian gigging joe trying to make gig life easier. For me that's still the S3000.

 

 

 

 

[guzman]

Full disclosure, I occasionally do contract dealer training for Casio, which is why I've got a loaner S3000 I have to return soon. It won NAMM "Dealer's Choice" award last year I think.

 

That said, I'm still gigging the S3000. I use it exclusively for acoustic piano sounds, in solo piano, piano trio, and jazz ensembles. For that usage, I find the piano tone warm and balanced from top to bottom in a way my CP4 isn't. While I prefer the action of the CP4, I don't have any trouble playing expressively on the Casio, and the warmer tone, much lighter weight and internal speakers means I haven't gigged the Yamaha since getting my hands on the Casio. I find it allows me to "speak", and use more of my acoustic piano vocabulary, if that makes any sense.

 

In a perfect world, every one of my gigs would have a house piano like the magnificent Steinway D I get to play for my upcoming American Idol alumni gigs. But real life means I normally schlep DP and amplification. Clearly, I'm not as discriminating as the reviewer, just a normal pedestrian gigging joe trying to make gig life easier. For me that's still the S3000.

 

 

 

 

Well put. I use mine the same way - strictly jazz gigs in the Piano stage sound setting. Works exceptionally well for that. Set the action parameter to the lightest setting, and you have a very expressive and capable instrument.

 

I think the reviewer missed the point. I suspect the weighting delta on the white vs. black keys was fully intentional. We all know the slight issue with the black keys needing more pressure towards the fallboard. The lighter weighting compensates for that. If the black keys took the same weight to move them as the white keys, the black key pressure needed near the fallboard would be much more noticeable, and would probably be felt halfway down the black key.

 

My $.02

 

Guz

 

[Jazz+]

I found the 3000 action to be fatiguing, not at first, but in the long run.

[Mark Schmieder]

Excellent feedback from Tim and others. I've watched way too many of James Pavel's videos and NAMM showroom walkthroughs, but I do generally find them fairly useful. As someone who came from a Mason & Hamlin family (there are Steinways in the family too, but everyone prefers the M&H's), I especially learned a lot from his presentations on that company's current lineup and the history of its basic model series. He has similarly gone into some depth on the Casio Digitals from time to time. But there are so many models!

[Jazz+]

I had a Casio PX-360 (160, 560, 5S type action) for three years and got along with its action, but not the 3000.

[Jazz+]

[video:youtube]

[Jazz+]

Perhaps it's intentional to compensate for the even shorter pivot distance?

[galaxy4t]

I saw this review last night. I had never seen a review by James before on any instrument. My thought is that the black keys are shorter and would therefore require less weight than the white keys which are longer. I don't know if the weight of the black and white keys is identical on a grand piano. When I took lessons I played a German M Schulz upright at home and a Chickering grand that my piano teacher had. I remember the Chickering had hard stiff action compared to the M Schulz. It never occurred to me that there could be a weight difference between the black or white keys. As I remember the black keys always seemed easier to push down and I always thought that was because they were shorter.

[Aidan]

I note that in his second video, he admits he is deleting critical comments because they are 'spreading misinformation', i.e. disagreeing with him. That seems a very unhealthy state of affairs to me. I posted the comment below on that, but I'm not sure whether that will see daylight. A fellow KCer informed me he couldn't see the comment even though I could, so maybe it was in pre-moderation and will eventually bite the dust like the others. However, this is the gist of my observations...

 

I am a classically trained, professional pianist (though no longer of conservatoire standard, for sure). My degree is in music. I am also a PX-S1000 owner. Before I am accused of being a fanboy, let me say I'm not going to pretend it's perfect (the mid range of the sample bothers me more than the action ever has, to be honest). However, for a £450 piano, you're getting a lot for your money.

 

For pianists of a certain standard and above, ALL digital pianos (and upright acoustics, truthfully) are a compromise. Beside possibly the Kawai MP11SE (which weighs 34kg), I can't think of a DP I'd want to play high end classical repertoire on.

 

Secondly, black keys tend to be lighter than white ones because there is less material in a black key â they are physically smaller, as they are narrower and don't extend to the full depth of the keybed. This can be equalised in grand piano mechanisms with various adjustments (and denser material, i.e. ebony). But you're realistically not going to achieve this in a cheap to mid-range digital instrument, where basically the entire mechanism is plastic.

 

Furthermore, adding more weight to the black keys, much of whose area is closer to the common pivot point, can actually make it more difficult to depress the key towards the back of its length. I'm sure this is a problem many of you have come across yourselves in keybeds â I know I have! This was a common complaint I believe Casio were aware of during the design process and the weighting of the black keys was probably chosen with that in mind, particularly given that the depth of the instrument itself means the pivot point is closer to the key ends than in some other DPs. As I say, there are compromises at work here. But c'mon, it's a £450 electronic piano! Would I play Chopin Etudes on this? Not really. Is it a modestly-priced, nice feeling instrument that is a joy to haul to gigs due to its very low weight? Definitely, in my opinion.

 

As I say, I don't count myself as the best pianist in the world but I am able to play with accuracy and nuance on this keyboard, despite its compromises.

 

I ended by suggesting to James that he reach out personally to Casio on this. I have never found their levels of service and responsiveness to customer feedback to be anything other than exceptional, and what I really do dislike about some of the comments James chose to leave visible here is the inference that Casio is trying to be deceptive or dishonest about one of their instruments, an inference I believe is wholly unfair. In short, it was the typical music snob Casio-bashing. In my opinion, the company deserves far more respect than it generally gets from the musical community.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Nothing against Casio as a company here. I don"t care for the S1000/3000 action though, because it"s hard on the wrists. Played one of each for about an hour each. Something strange about the pivot point, and depth combined; the angle is odd and not something I"d prefer to play on. Slow stuff is okay, but most of my piano gigging material is ragtime and older jazz, and it falls flat very quickly for that, for me. I did notice the sharp weight difference as well, and I think that"s part of what bugged me. Hard on the tendons.

[Sam CA]

For me the keybed on the S3000 is the best that I've experienced in this price range by far. Go to a piano store with a wide selection of Acoustic pianos and test it for yourself. Based on this logic, you'll find most pianos 'unplayable'.

[Jazz+]

Nothing against Casio as a company here. I don"t care for the S1000/3000 action though, because it"s hard on the wrists. Played one of each for about an hour each. Something strange about the pivot point, and depth combined; the angle is odd and not something I"d prefer to play on. Slow stuff is okay, but most of my piano gigging material is ragtime and older jazz, and it falls flat very quickly for that, for me. I did notice the sharp weight difference as well, and I think that"s part of what bugged me. Hard on the tendons.

 

That reflects my experience with my 3000. I did not notice it at first but after 40 minutes it would stress me out. I prefered the action on my Casio PX-360, (160, 560, 5s all presumably having longer pivots). The Kawai ES110 $650 is the best action I have played in the under 26 lbs digital piano category. And, as a bonus I prefer all of its sounds.

[Mighty Motif Max]

For me the keybed on the S3000 is the best that I've experienced in this price range by far. Go to a piano store with a wide selection of Acoustic pianos and test it for yourself. Based on this logic, you'll find most pianos 'unplayable'.

 

Not sure if this was directed at me. If so, I actually have played a variety of pianos from Yamaha, Kawai, Pearl River, and a few older Baldwin and Mason & Hamlin pianos, as well as one Steinway 6.5" grand. The Yamaha parlor grand I played was my preferred action of any piano I"ve ever touched. Then would be a Kawai baby grand from a few years ago. Oddly enough the Steinway I played seemed to have a rather light action. For my playing, any of those three brands generally works (unless we"re talking about uprights). The S1000/3000 isn"t so much 'unplayable' for me as 'unpleasant'. I could get by with one in a pinch, but it"s not to my liking. I like a fast action with decent weighting.

 

[Reezekeys]

I just put my .02 in that U-tube comment section â but it may not last long. He says he'll delete posts he doesn't like, and there's a good chance he may not like mine.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Nothing against Casio as a company here. I don"t care for the S1000/3000 action though, because it"s hard on the wrists. Played one of each for about an hour each. Something strange about the pivot point, and depth combined; the angle is odd and not something I"d prefer to play on. Slow stuff is okay, but most of my piano gigging material is ragtime and older jazz, and it falls flat very quickly for that, for me. I did notice the sharp weight difference as well, and I think that"s part of what bugged me. Hard on the tendons.

 

That reflects my experience with my 3000. I did not notice it at first but after 40 minutes it would stress me out. I prefer the action on my Casio PX-360, (160, 560, 5s all having longer pivot actions). The Kawai ES110 is the best action I have played in the under 26 lbs in gig weight digital piano category.

 

I also prefer the 560 and 5s too. CGP-700 was okay though I didn"t like the texturing. I"ve not played an ES110, but I do like the ES8"s keybed; my favorite actually, but I couldn"t justify a single-use $2000 board.

 

When people ask about Casio, I always tell them that while they"re known for cheap keyboards, in recent years they"ve started making pretty decent professional-level keyboards, like the used to in the 1980s. I just haven"t had a need for one.

[Reezekeys]

And James has already replied to me. Maybe he's as busy with work as I am!

[Sam CA]

Not sure if this was directed at me. If so, I actually have played a variety of pianos from Yamaha, Kawai, Pearl River, and a few older Baldwin and Mason & Hamlin pianos, as well as one Steinway 6.5" grand. The Yamaha parlor grand I played was my preferred action of any piano I"ve ever touched. Then would be a Kawai baby grand from a few years ago. Oddly enough the Steinway I played seemed to have a rather light action. For my playing, any of those three brands generally works (unless we"re talking about uprights). The S1000/3000 isn"t so much 'unplayable' for me as 'unpleasant'. I could get by with one in a pinch, but it"s not to my liking. I like a fast action with decent weighting.

 

Not at all! That was just a general comment and my very own opinion directed at this particular video. I personally don't like the action on some of the high end digital pianos, so I totally get the user preference thing. I was just reading the user comments on YouTube right now. Many people find this presentation convincing. They should totally invest in a touchweight/gram weight and go to an actual piano store to see weight inconsistencies on the most balanced action pianos. Even white keys don't measure the same across the entire range.

[Sam CA]

And James has already replied to me. Maybe he's as busy with work as I am!

 

Wow...he says: "Of course I disagree. No one should play this keyboard at any level.".

 

Now that's really cute!

 

[Aidan]

I hate to come over all grumpy old man, but I think the guy is up his own ass, tbh.

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm having great difficulty with the last few posts, telling who is being referenced in each comment.

 

Is "he" James Pavel, in the comment about no one being advised to play "this" (Casio?) keyboard at any level?

 

And Aidan, are you referring to yourself as a grumpy old man, or applying that comment to the preceding post?

 

Also, if the guy you think is up his own arse, James Pavel, or someone else that maybe the "he" refers to earlier?

[Sam CA]

I'm having great difficulty with the last few posts, telling who is being referenced in each comment.

 

Is "he" James Pavel, ...

 

 

In my post? Yes. James Pavel (if that's the name of the young man in the YouTube video) wrote this in his response to Reezekeys YouTube comment.

 

James believes, No one should play this keyboard at any level..

 

[Mark Schmieder]

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't watch his whole video for those models a week or two ago when I came upon them, and before this forum discussion started (or got re-kicked), so I did not hear him say that. He did seem to have some good impressions of some of the Casio keyboards at the NAMM Show, but maybe these weren't the ones he slightly praised.

 

I do get annoyed by some of his examples used for testing pianos, and he's awfully young but apparently was a child prodigy. In the end, we have to make our own decisions and need to experience things directly, but as it can be nigh impossible to find most of this stuff in actual stores, ordering any keyboard on blind faith requires understanding the biases and strengths of those who do YouTube reviews and the like.

 

Not specific to keyboards or to James in particular, but there is another instrument that gets brought up here now and then and that has an indirect relation to accordions and melodicas, whose best-known video reviewer seems to have developed recent vendor biases that are a bit too specific to not wonder if there's some sponsorship involved...

[Mighty Motif Max]

Always wonder about him testing digital pianos through Roland KC amps.

[Reezekeys]

And iirc one of his videos has him comparing two DPs... but he didn't bother to pan his L&R channels (or just took the "mono/L" output from each). Needless to say, the sound was pretty crappy. Not my tempo, but hey, it gets over on youtube so what do I know?