Gear Zealotry

[EricBarker]

If only we could only live in a world without gear zealotry. My dad was a professional photographer, and quite successful in his field (ethnographic documentary photography). But working quietly, shooting pictures of people, he preferred to work with small, low-key equipment that didn't draw a lot of attention. He tended to use smaller Olympus SLRs in the 70s when all the hot shots were using Leica's and Nikon's with heavy-duty bodies and lenses. He would meet up with other photographers, and they would always flex. In the 90s, one pulled out a Canon 1D-MK2 "heavy body" (yes, it specifically was designed to have a giant footprint, there can be some advantages, but it's usually just a dick measuring contest). I saw the Leica fanboys even start referring to themselves "Leica Photographers". My father had articles in Smithsonian magazine, his book was presented to President Clinton, but most wonderfully, he was honored in a Yup'ik Inuit ceremony as an important elder by the people he worked his life to document in rural Alaska. He got the job done with the equipment that best suited his needs. Other's looked down on him for it, but he didn't care.

 

The music world is the same exact thing. Everyone buys some new piece of equipment, and then tells everyone else that they HAVE to use it, or else they're not a professional. I've seen it for years. Neve mixers or bust, Neumann mics or your not a pro, Pro Tools or you're a hack, Apple computer or you're not one of us, and yes, quite a few keyboard models too. I think a lot of it is self-justification of having spent a lot of money, or wasted a lot of time, or throwing yourself behind a particular workflow philosophy, and trying to justify it. We all have our reasons for the equipment and philosophies we use. We each have a million variables to deal with: financial, genre, personal workflow, security, priorities. Those of us who have played for a good length of time have our reasons, and I think it's downright unprofessional to challenge them without good cause. I might use a completely different setup if my priorities were different.

 

I recently posted to a Mainstage users group that I advocated against using a USB interface for live performance... no, not quite that I advocated against... but that I was tired of people telling new members (particularly novices just starting out) that they had to get in interface as the "right way". It's okay to advise others on courses of action you think are good. But a lot of it is blatant, "you need to spend more more or your not pro/one-of-us/serious". For the record, I have no problem with what equipment you choose to use, but telling a kid who doesn't even realize that MIDI won't transmit audio back to his keyboard's internal speakers that he has to go out and drop $600 on an RME is just amateurish. I finally posted about it, and why I think it's okay to do what we do. A number of others came out of the woodwork and admitted they did the same but kept it to themselves for fear of being bullied. It's ugly. And it's pointless. Some of these are little s*** kids, some of them are probably seasoned pros. Being a pro doesn't make you exempt from being an overzealous A-hole, in fact, we're probably some of the worst offenders.

 

Advise, explain, and understand. I've learned a lot on forums and communities over the years, and I'd like to think I've helped a lot of others along the way. But just make sure you don't force YOUR WAY on others in the process. Just a public service announcement.

[El Lobo]

Have to join in and say as a sax player, the same thing happens on sax forums. And I'm sure the same thing is true on guitar forums although I don't frequent those. If you don't play THIS brand of gear, you're not a pro level player. I enjoy pointing out that the emperor has no clothes on. Your $600 mouthpiece is worse than my $25 one and your $300 ligature is not as good as my $8.95 one. We won't go into your $10,000 Selmer Mark VI horn compared to my $2000 Martin, but I know I play a better rock horn than you do.

[Adan]

You think photography and music is bad, trying venturing into the motorcycle world. It's a wonder they're not all out there trying to kill each other.

 

Actually, some times they do. Ever been run off the road by Harley's? I have.

 

 

[EricBarker]

Have to join in and say as a sax player, the same thing happens on sax forums. And I'm sure the same thing is true on guitar forums although I don't frequent those. If you don't play THIS brand of gear, you're not a pro level player. I enjoy pointing out that the emperor has no clothes on. Your $600 mouthpiece is worse than my $25 one and your $300 ligature is not as good as my $8.95 one. We won't go into your $10,000 Selmer Mark VI horn compared to my $2000 Martin, but I know I play a better rock horn than you do.

OMG! I almost forgot about my Trumpet playing days. That was the WORST of all. TRUMPET PLAYERS, FLEXING! UGHHHHH!!! I played in a "Bach Strad Town" and had a Yamaha, I might as well have been a communist in Alabama. I literally had a trumpet teacher who attempted to keep me from getting into music school (I did), partly because I played a Bach and a Yamaha in a store, and walked out happy with the Yamaha. I got crucified!

 

Jesus... I needed a trigger warning before that one, thanks bro!

[GRollins]

I don't fuss at people about the gear they have. I freely admit that the keyboards I've got are better than me. I am the limiting factor in the keyboard/me realm, not the hardware.

 

I've got some good stuff and I've got some average stuff. (And the relative ranking of which is good vs. which is average will change depending on the ranker...grounds for another discussion.) I don't even claim to equal my "average" gear. I've only been playing keys on a piecemeal basis for a few years. Give me a while and I'll get to the point where I can hopefully justify the lower priced stuff I own.

 

Grey

[EricBarker]

Can you imagine the dark dark world of professional string players? That's gotta be brutal. Cellists getting throttled for only having a 300yo $500,000 instrument instead of 1.5Mil Strad? I'm sure there are plenty of police reports out there.

[KuruPrionz]

Bravo!!

I'm with you on this.

I find this forum interesting for my own reasons, not really a keyboard player.

 

I've had people tell me I have to get a tube amp. I've had them, I like my solid state amps.

Or they want me to play a Les Paul, like them. I've owned 8 of them at one time or another, none left, not my thing.

 

Some of them have had to eat crow when they heard me.

 

Here is a great example of why gear may not matter much, Jeff Healey on his first TV appearance - shredding on a cheap Squier guitar and playing it "wrong" to boot. Foof.

 

[scottasin]

A lot of the best musicians I've ever met or had the honor of sharing a stage with played "trash" gear by the internet's standards... and guess what? they sounded fantastic. Music gear is only as good as the person playing it. My favorite example was Guitarist Fareed Haque on a fly in gig, Squier strat into an inexpensive amp modeler (maybe a sansamp?) and straight into the board. Never heard him once complain to the sound guy about tone, despite having seen plenty of guitarists get whiny about their perception of the way their multi-thousand dollar amps are being mic'd and presented FOH.

 

I myself am still faithfully playing my Nord Electro 2, which is many models outdated, and the organ sound is still plenty good enough to get compliments from both musicians and regular folks in the crowd. I've also gigged plenty with a Casio Privia, which is not considered a "stage" keyboard and you'd never see one in a professional rig... but yaknow what? Its got a good piano sound, its small and light, it has 1/4" outs... it does everything I need it to. I'm always amazed by the number of people I see with Yamaha Motifs and using them for essentially the same purpose. Its total overkill, but its an 'industry standard'.

[GRollins]

Oh...something I need to put in...I enjoy the hell out of having the toys I've got and I like to talk about stuff like that...but that doesn't make my gear (or me) better than something (or someone) else.

 

Interesting observation: I finally sold that cheap little Yamaha PSR-200 that had been hanging around for years, but the thing is...I liked the Pan Pipes voice better than the ones on the higher priced Yamahas (MM8 and MOXF8) and Korg (Kronos X). The downside was that the signal to noise ratio was terrible, so it wasn't going to be worth keeping it around just in case I might want a pan pipe someday. Sometimes the cheaper stuff has its charms. If the S/N ratio had been better, I might have kept the PSR-200, as humble as it was.

 

Grey

[Dave Bryce]

I've seen folks make amazing recordings with a four track cassette recorder, a single perfectly ordinary keyboard instrument and an SM58.

 

On the other hand, I've seen more than a few cases of folks who have boatloads of state of the art gear and...may not be getting the most out of it.

 

dB

[EricBarker]

One of my favorite guitarists, Devin Townsend, plays Peevy guitars and has some of the greatest tone I've ever heard. He does his own thing, and I'm sure it's not for everyone. But he got his kit based on what he likes (probably a professional endorsement too, but that's typically after the fact). Everyone s**ts on Peevy, I'm sure he got a lot of flack in his early days. Use what works.

[scottasin]

One of my favorite guitarists, Devin Townsend, plays Peevy guitars and has some of the greatest tone I've ever heard. He does his own thing, and I'm sure it's not for everyone. But he got his kit based on what he likes (probably a professional endorsement too, but that's typically after the fact). Everyone s**ts on Peevy, I'm sure he got a lot of flack in his early days. Use what works.

I've got his signature delay and reverb pedal, its totally amazing. Its also made by 'budget' brand Mooer and is far and away the most feature filled yet instantly useable pedal I've ever seen at the price. Sure, the DSP algorithms/chips are seemingly the most mass produced set, but in a mix, no one's gonna notice. I got 2 delays, a reverb, and a looper, all individually routable inside the pedal, for under $300. I've never seen another one, but I've seen tons of Strymon's that cost around twice as much and can't do some of the cool shit this can.

[EricBarker]

I gotta admit, as much as I love this forum, one of the nicest forums in the world the MOTU Digital Performer forum. No one gets a crap about DP. It's one of the oldest DAWs, and has been pounded as being the "aging, out of touch dinosaur" ever since. The people have been shamed by everyone, and they're done with that crap. They keep their heads down and get the job done.

 

I Digital Performer it because I bonded with it, and built my workflow around it. I think it's great. Is it the best? Who knows. I don't even always recommend it to people, because it's expensive and has a bit of a steep learning curve. I tell them this is what I use, and maybe a feature or two that I like about it, and then I tell them to go get Reaper (which I've actually never used in my life) because it's free, and they shouldn't waste their money until they spend some time learning first.

 

I use an Arturia Keylab88, initially because it had all the features I needed, didn't weigh a ton, and was a serious upgrade from using my QS8 as a controller. It died a horrible death due to ash being poured into its sensors (I cleaned it, but it never got out). Maybe I should have taken that as a sign and bought something else/better. But I didn't, why? For the "dumbest" of reasons: it has a built-in laptop tray, and it's the best feature I've ever had on a board. We're entering Car Cupholder territory here, but no joke, having a built-in laptop tray on a controller built for laptops is a deal breaker. $700 and I had another one on my door step 3-days later.

 

We all have our reasons, and very few of them are bad reasons. We all think we're the s***, so everyone should follow our lead.

 

...or maybe we're just all lonely and want everyone to use our kit so we have someone to talk to.

[Dr Mike Metlay]

This is actually part of the rules over at the Studio Workshop forum:

 

People get into arguments and fights because there is always a clear dividing line between X and Y, but every human being sees that dividing line in a different place. Some of the critical lines we deal with here include when X is "affordable" and Y is "cheap", when X is "sufficient quality to get the job done if you're careful" and Y is "a waste of money, even if it's not that much money", and when X is "helping a newcomer learn technically useful information rather than coddling them" and Y is "bludgeoning a newcomer with how smart you are".

 

I want everyone to be welcome in this forum, and I mean everyone, no matter what kind of music they're doing and how much or little money they have. If you have decades of experience and a room full of gear, it's easy to forget that a lot of today's up-and-coming musicians are kids with very limited budgets, big dreams, and a real thirst to learn. I will come down hard on anyone who draws the line between "good advice from someone with more experience" and " perceived elitism and arrogance" in a different place than I do.

 

When you write something to answer someone who's just getting started, read what you wrote before posting it, and ask yourself this question: "When they read this, is this person going to learn something useful and want to learn more, or will they leave MPN and go back to watching shitty YouTube videos because they think we're a bunch of snobs?" Remember: "He'll probably never be back but at least I got to school him before he left" accomplishes nothing.

 

TL;DR version: Talk, listen, and to quote Doctor Who, "Always try to be nice but never fail to be kind."

 

Read the full post here

 

This is and has been on my mind for a long damn time, and it's part of why most of the forums out there on pro audio aren't worth the paper they're printed on. ("But Mike, online forums aren't printed on paper at all!" "And?")

 

mike

 

 

[EricBarker]

I've got his signature delay and reverb pedal, its totally amazing. Its also made by 'budget' brand Mooer and is far and away the most feature filled yet instantly useable pedal I've ever seen at the price. Sure, the DSP algorithms/chips are seemingly the most mass produced set, but in a mix, no one's gonna notice. I got 2 delays, a reverb, and a looper, all individually routable inside the pedal, for under $300. I've never seen another one, but I've seen tons of Strymon's that cost around twice as much and can't do some of the cool shit this can.

I've learned more from Devin than any keyboardist. His arranging is Prokofiev level, the voice pairings he comes up with are unreal. My favorite is his technique of using Bass Trombones in really heavy riffs to thicken the accents. In the mix, they just sound like super-beefy palm mutes with sustain. Just drags your skull through the mud. He's working on a symphony now, I hope he's not making it an exercise in conventional practice/harmony, because I can't wait to see what he comes up with if he really lets loose. If it's anything like Empath or Ki, orchestration profs might be referring to it in 50 years.

[Doc Tonewheel]

For many people, if you were still playing a Hammond, Minimoog, and Rhodes in the mid 1980's instead of a Prophet-5/Jupiter-8/OB-X and a DX7, you were playing with outdated, non-pro gear. People dumped their CS-80s for synths with more programmable presets. Now look at the prices these instruments fetch. My point is that what is deemed pro gear changes over time, and it's the talent, not the gear (for the thousandth time). Whole genres (punk, new wave) have been made using what was considered "non-pro" gear at the time.

[EricBarker]

Yeah... and the result was Punk Rock... not making a very good case here LOL j/k.

 

But you're absolutely correct. Punks have one thing right (maybe two, I dunno, maybe): "shut up and play!" I just wish they had appended that with "...something good".

 

punk funk, right?

[Reezekeys]

As I've said many times here...

 

[font:Arial Black]It's the artist not the brush[/font]

[CowboyNQ]

I've learned a lot on forums and communities over the years, and I'd like to think I've helped a lot of others along the way.

One has to assume that most posters are in favour of their own gear and workflow method to at least some extent, or they wouldn't be using it in the first place. So yes Eric, I don't really get any value out of "if you don't use what I use the way I use it, you're an idiot" style reviews either. But like you, I've learned a mountain of stuff from this forum. A good chunk of my current large gig rig owes its existence to very careful research right here.

 

I always gain the most value from those who dispassionately assess the gear they use, pros and cons, plus their reasons for using it. Context is critically important. It's also great when any gear reviewer separates opinion (which there's nothing wrong with - opinions of current users are always valid) from fact.

 

I will shout out to brothers Rich Forman and David Holloway here, both of whom I've PM'd in the past about gear I was considering purchasing and who were happy to tell me shortcomings to be aware of. As a long-time sufferer of anti-GAS, I really like to know what I'm getting myself in for before I release the moths from my wallet.

 

 

 

[EricBarker]

I'm a fairly new-comer to this forum. I guess it makes sense. For much of my early life I fashioned myself a composer first. I went to music school for composition, wanted to be a film composer. Went home, fell in love, got married... JOINED A BAND. Then... oh, this is what I really want to do with my life. I'm a 15+ year veteran of the Digital Performer forums, one of the best damned families I've ever had outside my own. I love production, and it's actually what makes me money these days. That said, now... "hands on keys" is where I get my joy. Don't get me wrong, I love composing, but communicating musically with a number of other well-travelled musicians is what makes my day. I've played in front of 15,000 people... but I've jammed with 4 guys and no audience and had just as much fun.

[Piktor]

To some extent, your choice of gear might make you sound like everyone else ( e.g. playing the presets on some flagship synth), or it might give you your own sonic signature, as long as the gear is not so crappy that it gets in your way.

I doubt that this is much to anyone else's tastes, but there is something that I love Hound Dog Taylor's sound, especially as it seems to have been his own thing. Note the non-standard gear choices he made (relatively cheap Teisco guitars, Kent guitars, Silvertone amp) which was perfect for playing his brand of ragged ass boogie and blues with soul:

[video:youtube]

[CowboyNQ]

...I've jammed with 4 guys and no audience...

Oh, so it's not just me then? Hehe...

 

[Nathanael_I]

Clearly, playing music is only tangentially connected to gear - one does need an instrument/amp/whatever-makes-the-noise! But playing is mostly about the player - the word tells its own story. For a long time that was it. If you wanted to "produce music", you grabbed what you had and played it for anyone in earshot. If lots of people needed to play, you wrote it all down on paper and hired a conductor to keep everyone together. Interestingly, this same idea of "use what you have" is still true today with most music creators. We have top 40 hits produced entirely on an iPad - it isn't the instrument, its the person. This will always occur. People are creative and can create with anything... Hollow logs become drums. It doesn't take much...

 

But now we also have the separate idea of "producing music", and not necessarily in linear, continuous, time. It can be "recorded", "packaged", even "sold", "streamed" and "synchronized to picture". One can do all of these things creatively, and even artistically. But unlike playing, these music-related activities are VERY gear dependent, and getting paid professionally involves some investment. Few long-term, career producers or mixers have inexpensive gear. They start there, but don't end there. It isn't that they can't work with basic tools; its just easier and faster to use nicer things, and one can afford them, and the good stuff doesn't go bad very quickly, and therefore, builds up. And so everyone who looks at production-oriented musicians sees nice, expensive, luscious gear and wants to be like that - successful people have gear. There are, of course, still levels of "adequacy", but the more you want "that sound", the more the specific tech matters.

 

And there the confusion sets in. The manufacturers would love us to associate "that result" with "that gear", and we have enough history and videos to see that, yes, "that gear" was indeed used to make "that sound". (even if the player was actually 95% of it). We also live in an unprecedented time of musical plenty. Never in history have good instruments, amps, effects, or gear of every kind been this accessible. Never have we been so able to look in our neighbors windows, garages and studios and see just how much neat stuff they bought!

 

Modern production is now a creative expression in its own right. So we have sound-designers that give concerts with huge modular synths that show off that creativity, largely without traditional "playing" in a keyboard sense. We have DJ's that actively re-shape, re-contextualize, and modify sound to keep a dance floor pumping, we have electronic artists that only make art with tables or stands full of gear, deeply customized and programmed for specific needs. We have bands that take studio equipment on stage, or in their racks, or at FoH. It's all blurring, and if any of us are not clear around what we value, what we are trying to do, or what our needs are, it is very easy to get lost in the noise.

 

But, it is an amazing time to make music. A $100 USB interface has higher objective sound quality than all but the wealthiest could afford in 1973. We are still in the stage where a lot of people that could never afford to buy instruments, or make a recording can now afford to make music. This is exploding what is possible. Over time, it will all sort itself out. Digital photography went through this fad, and now most people use their phones not a DSLR. But for the photographers? They have the best cameras ever made. We live in our own audio version of that. If you are a pure player, the most amazing instruments are available at historically low prices. If you are a production-oriented creative, the tools have never been better or more affordable. Quality is through the roof as CNC machining and other advances have applied even to instruments.

 

I guess as always, it is "know thyself", and in the spirit of the thread, "don't assume that everyone else thinks of playing, production or music-making in the same way you do!".

[EricBarker]

And now I feel like crap... ya never know when you're gonna walk into a can of worms on a group. I should have known better. So as not to vague book, I posted on the Mainstage FB group that I prefer to not use a USB interface live, and think it's a valid strategy to eliminate complexity and potential problems. It's been a long time since I jumped into a tank full of hungry sharks.

 

I'm an idiot for trying to post my workflow thoughts.

[Mark_OA]

Have to join in and say as a sax player, the same thing happens on sax forums. And I'm sure the same thing is true on guitar forums although I don't frequent those. If you don't play THIS brand of gear, you're not a pro level player. I enjoy pointing out that the emperor has no clothes on. Your $600 mouthpiece is worse than my $25 one and your $300 ligature is not as good as my $8.95 one. We won't go into your $10,000 Selmer Mark VI horn compared to my $2000 Martin, but I know I play a better rock horn than you do.

 

Same here, but I'm a trumpet player. I have been playing on a simple student instrument for 30 years now and every section I played in had the same kind of people: the jocks. They all look down on my instrument, until I play. Never had a complaint in my life. Yes, the instrument is no looker and if not cared for daily the valves can be sluggish, but it is what I have and what suits me best. I tried more expansive, "pro" horns and sold them all, always got back to my first horn. I do use a more expensive mouthpiece, but got over the mouthpiece safari rather quickly.

[EricBarker]

I play most of my gigs on a $100 plastic C-Trumpet. I had a guy come up to me the other day, said he was floored, and that I had killer chops. He was wrong, and probably more than a little drunk, but it felt nice at the time!

[Legatoboy]

All of that changes when you walk into a music store and hear and see an 14 year old inner city kid on a cheap keyboard playing and sounding better than Stevie Wonder...

Makes one feel like a fool strategizing all our big deal purchases.... that happened to me a number of times in the way-back... that will ground you! It ain't the meat it's the motion!

[Outkaster]

For me the problem becomes that small things become big things the longer you hang onto gear. With keyboards we are sometimes playing recreations of electro-mechanical instruments. As the technology gets better so does the need to have it sometimes. There is a large difference between and S-80 from 2000 and a CP88 from last year. For me it helps to put my best foot forward but I can still make a 16 year old Xk3 sound good or an M-1 from 1988 sound decent. It does ultimately come down to the player but having decent gear helps.

[Stokely]

I don't fuss at people about the gear they have. I freely admit that the keyboards I've got are better than me. I am the limiting factor in the keyboard/me realm, not the hardware.

 

I've got some good stuff and I've got some average stuff. (And the relative ranking of which is good vs. which is average will change depending on the ranker...grounds for another discussion.) I don't even claim to equal my "average" gear. I've only been playing keys on a piecemeal basis for a few years. Give me a while and I'll get to the point where I can hopefully justify the lower priced stuff I own.

 

Grey

 

If anything, when I see someone with "worse" gear than I have and they are quite obviously a better player/programmer than I am, it's a bit embarrassing One guy I saw a few years back in a cover band similar to mine was still rocking a Korg Triton and his sounds and playing were just top notch.

[nadroj]

Disclaimer: I"m a Nord user. Of every keyboard I"ve ever used, my Nord has been my favourite and constant go to, as limited as the Electro 4 is. Unless Crumar comes up with something amazing my next and only keyboard purchase for the next 10 years will probably be a Nord.

 

Saying that, I get pissed off at how people put Nord keyboards on a pedestal.

 

I"ve played with singers who have said 'Yeah the Nord piano is good, everything else just falls flat to my ears.' Those same singers haven"t noticed the difference when I"ve ran my pianos through another board.

 

I"ve seen countless guys spend money on Nords because they"re the 'in' keyboard, only for them to use 10% of it"s functions. I see so many local guys use Nord Stages, and all they play on it is piano and maybe a string split. Why did they spend £2500 when a £1000 mid-ranged Yamaha/Roland would have done the same job? Because it"s red, and you"re only pro if you have a red keyboard.

 

We headlined a gig on Saturday and the support act had an old Hammond XC model. It sounded really, really good. I commented on his organ tone because it sounded great (and I thought it sounded more authentic than my Nord). He said 'Nah, I wish I had one like yours - they"re better.' No reason - just 'It"s Nord, it"s probably better.'

 

I"ve turned up at dep gigs with a Nord and people have collectively breathed a sigh of relief 'He must be good, he has a Nord.'

 

They do have a certain warmth to their sound and they"re so fun to use and yeah, they sound good FOH, but I do get pissed off at how people just get them because they see them on TV, rather than get something that would suit them or their band better.