Brainstorming Modulations

[J. Dan]

This is NOT what I'm trying to do, but should at least communicate the vibe I'm going for....listen to the guitar feedback in the very beginning with the modulations going on:

 

[video:youtube]

 

I'm working on a sort of psychedelic song transition where I want to create a similar vibe with synth and ultimately want to shift the pitch via LFO changing between saw up and saw down as well as LFO rate up and down and overall pitch going up and down, all running through some delays and other effects. I've been trying it on an analog synth just twisting knobs but as an example it's hard to switch LFO wave at exactly the right time so it switches exactly on a peak or valley. Considering trying to do in the Kronos and I know AMS modulation can be powerful but not everything is necessarily automatable.

 

Purely brainstorming, curious if anybody has any tips or suggestions. Worse case, I'll just keep practicing with the knobs until I can get what I hear in my head (scary thought, I know).

[J. Dan]

Actually, somewhere I have a recording of me doing very close to what I want on my Moog Opus 3 which is now in storage, but the core sound is not what I want....but in terms of the modulations it was real close. I'll have to try to find that.

[Tusker]

Worse case, I'll just keep practicing with the knobs until I can get what I hear in my head (scary thought, I know).

 

LOL. Fun though right?

 

Considering trying to do in the Kronos and I know AMS modulation can be powerful but not everything is necessarily automatable.

 

Purely brainstorming, curious if anybody has any tips or suggestions.

 

Sure. As a brainstorm suggestion for the Kronos, I would suggest three sliders ...

 

Slider 1 would be the dry/wet for a tempo-synced delay (8th notes, approximate BPM is ok)

 

Slider 2 would be amount of LFO modulation of pitch The LFO would be tempo synced, so it could go from 8 notes, to triplet 8 notes to 16 notes, etc. (Or you might feel that is too precise, and prefer not to tempo-sync.)

 

Slider 3 would be a 1-2- second decay envelope modulating the LFO rate from fast to slow. This slider would control whether the envelope has zero effect on the LFO rate or a considerable effect. (Alternatively, Slider 3 could be the LFO rate and you could take more control of your performance, moving the slider like an envelope or an lfo.) Most of your left hand work would be a combination of Slider 2 and Slider 3.

 

You could jam along and see if this gets you to a sonic space you like. For increased psychedelicness, you may want a slightly slower attack than a typical lead sound, to dirty it up with an amp simulation and add some portamento.

 

You may be looking for something different from this. I hope this helps.

[Steve Nathan]

I thought this thread was gonna be about mid song key changes.

I was excited to point to Natalie Cole's cut of Don't Get Around Much Anymore.

[drawback]

I thought we'd be discussing Gershwin, Porter & Django!

[Markyboard]

Assuming you're talking about recording and not live I would get the basic modulation going using whatever tools you have including making use of the real time controllers as suggested. Don't worry about having things peak and sync at the right time. Record a few minutes of it and then you can time align and further manipulate it in your DAW to your exact desires.

 

Not familiar with Kronos specific modulation capabilities but I often run various modulations through VCAs that can be CVed with foot pedals before they get combined. This way I can easily bring them in and out for variation. But where each modulation is at in it's cycle is usually not predictable, especially if it's free running or random. This is where recording to the DAW comes in.

[J. Dan]

Some great ideas and suggestions but I'm not sure if I effectively communicated some of the specific challenges. Let me give a very specific description of what I want the modulation destination to do, not necessarily overall what I need, but a perfect example of my challenge.

 

Consider a pitch changing between saw up and saw down, with a fairly wide sweep. If you switch from a saw up to saw down wave, it immediately makes a step change. I don't want that, that's my main problem. I would like a slow sweep on the saw up to, when it gets to it's peak, the moment it would make the step change to the bottom, instead follow the saw down and sweep down with steps up. But done manually would require switching waves at the EXACT moment.

 

One idea I've though is maybe a way to shift shape or PW or something to transition between LFO shapes instead of discrete switching.

 

I hope that makes it more clear.

[J. Dan]

I guess maybe even more simplified - I don't want step changes. I want a smoother transition from sweeping up to sweeping down without a step change or anything abrupt.

[mate stubb]

??

 

Are you talking about a smooth sweep up and then down? Like triangle wave vibrato?

[Markyboard]

I guess maybe even more simplified - I don't want step changes. I want a smoother transition from sweeping up to sweeping down without a step change or anything abrupt.

 

You lost me with this part as it now sounds like you"re describing a triangle wave. Do you want it to step up once the falling portion hits bottom?

 

Never mind, the specific answer doesn"t matter. I can think of 2 ways that switching waveforms can be accomplished with the wave starting from predictable levels:

 

1) You need 2 LFOs that respond to independent trigger settings. That trigger could be a threshold that once reached initiates the start of the 2nd LFO from a reset level as opposed to free running. I"m guessing the Kronos doesn"t have this capability. Maybe some soft synths do? Trying to offer something that might be available to you. I"m guessing modular anything doesn"t help you.

 

2) I know Massive X has what they call 'Switching LFOs' that allow you to modulate the waveform selection. Not sure how much control one has over this-I can get back to you if further interested.

 

Either way it sounds like you need 2 separate LFOs.

 

3) Just occurred to me perhaps a multi stage looping envelope acting as 2 LFOs with nested repeats. Or again something like Massive X with its 'Performers' and Pigments with its 'Functions' that allow you to do much more sophisticated modulations and I believe predictable. Perhaps Kronos has something similar?

 

4) One more...a multi track step sequencer that sends out specified controller data per track. The tracks being synced together maybe exactly what you need.

 

[Sir Moak]

I was thinking about how I would do something like this with my modest gear. I don't think I would automate everything, rather I would do the following on my Bass Station II: do the quick modulations with pitch LFO assigned to aftertouch. Direction doesn't really count because of the speed, any waveshape and direction could work. Then do the slow stuff and big changes with pitch bend.

 

If we want to be more exact we're emulating banging on a tremolo arm on a guitar to modulate harmonics, so the LFO would be a saw with some slew with negative depth to pitch.

[Tusker]

Dan, just a couple of thoughts, adding to the very helpful advice you are receiving in this thread. If your LFOs are at roughly vibrato rates (0.5-12 Hz) and not audio rates....

 

Consider software or hardware which generates CC's in an LFO fashion. For example, in Logic Pro X and Mainstage, the Modulator MIDI Effect generates a MIDI CC LFO (or pitch bend LFO) which can be routed to internal synths or external hardware. With the symmetry parameter to the left you get a descending ramp, in the middle you get a triangle and on the right you get an ascending ramp. Moving a slider, you go from one LFO shape to another smoothly. There are other DAWs and software which can also do this, with which others may be more familiar.

 

Alternatively, try portamento. Imagine your portamento is turned on and you hit a very low key and then a very high key. You will get an ascending ramp wave. (You may need to set your portamento to linear as opposed to the usual exponential.) Do the reverse and you get a descending ramp wave. (assuming last note priority) Imagine performing something like a paradiddle on the keyboard to generate rising and falling shapes. With keyboard pitch scaling they could even be adjacent notes ... although it would likely be more visually appealing and reliable if performed as two-handed keyboard slaps.

[Markyboard]

I was thinking about how I would do something like this with my modest gear. I don't think I would automate everything, rather I would do the following on my Bass Station II: do the quick modulations with pitch LFO assigned to aftertouch. Direction doesn't really count because of the speed, any waveshape and direction could work. Then do the slow stuff and big changes with pitch bend.

 

If we want to be more exact we're emulating banging on a tremolo arm on a guitar to modulate harmonics, so the LFO would be a saw with some slew with negative depth to pitch.

 

Interesting idea Sir Moak and btw welcome to the forum. I think there"s too much going on during the 'slow stuff' to be accomplished with a pitchbend wheel by itself. But one could use the pb wheel to also bring in some random LFO or even an envelope set to modulate pitch offsetting the wheel position at desired times.

 

Assuming Dan" s good for now this thread (by title) invites a much broader discussion. Hopefully we can keep it recurring as this is one"s of my favorite subjects.

 

[J. Dan]

After playing around quite a bit and thinking more about what it would take to achieve what I want in an organic way, I spoke to a friend who agreed to let me come over and interface with some of his gear. At this point, I think the plan is to take my MFB Dominion 1 (which is semi-modular) over to a friend's house who owns a bunch of modular gear. After some discussion it seems his "maths" module may end up being the heart of many of the modulations. One of the challenges is that the Dom 1 doesn't have CB inputs for DEPTH of modulations from its internal LFO's, which means using external. But for instance if I want a dual osc sound, I'll need to send it equally to each osc as they have independent CV inputs. So I think so,e mixing and distribution of CVs will end up being in order. I'm a bit new to modulars in practice though I read about them quite a bit. Should be fun.

[Markyboard]

Glad you came to the same conclusion Dan. I couldn"t find anything in a hardware synth or soft synth that lets you stop modulation and remain at its present level and then continue from that point with another modulator. On the other hand this has modular written all over it.

 

I do have a cool device that I bought well before I started getting into modular. I should have a demo later today that shows the capability I think you"re looking for.

 

Btw the 3 VCO CV inputs on your Dom 1 are normaled together so you only need to connect 1 to modulate pitch of all 3 VCOs.

[J. Dan]

Btw the 3 VCO CV inputs on your Dom 1 are normaled together so you only need to connect 1 to modulate pitch of all 3 VCOs.

 

 

Did not realize that, thanks. I did know that the tuning of VCO serves as the global tuning, so I was sort of curious.

[Markyboard]

Here's a demo I put together today of the Moog MP-201 control pedal. Lots of other ways to achieve similar results in modular land but I think this is about as easy as it gets. Btw Dan I have Maths (you may see it in the video) and it is extremely versatile...and insane. Best used when in a wtf mood.

 

 

 

[Doerfler]

Here's a demo I put together today of the Moog MP-201 control pedal.

 

just watched.