Stage Pianos "disappear in the mix" (RD-2000)

[Scotty Poiano]

Looking for the perfect 88 key weighted stage piano for use in a live band. I keep seeing comments on certain devices such as "sounds great practicing alone, but disappears in the mix with a full ensemble". This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I would think that it is just a matter of EQ'ing things right. But it is a consistent complaint people make regarding the Roland RD-2000.

 

Is this a valid concern? Are there RD-2000 players out there that play in a band without issue?

 

I'm torn between Yamaha CP88, Roland RD-2000, Kawai MP11SE, and Korg SV-2.

[CowboyNQ]

Hey Scotty, I've never owned a digital piano that didn't need a little help from EQ to get it through the mix (in a rock band context). I'm of the "a cut is better than a boost" school and tend to roll off mids or low mids and sometimes bass depending on the initial piano sound the 'board has.

 

Currently I use a not-universally-loved-for-AP-but-works-well-for-me SV1 and love how it sounds out front. One of my bands uses a different sound engineer for every show and at maybe 20% of sound checks I'll get some appreciative oohs and aahs at my go-to piano sound. The rest, frankly, is up to the soundy, whom I'm happy to trust to do their job.

 

I've never used a Roland RD-2000 but can't see why it wouldn't be fine to use if you don't mind tweaking it a little.

[Docbop]

RD2000 have a lot of sounds, piano alone like 40 different ones all with different timbres and some will cut better than others. Cutting thru a mix is about finding a sonic hole to fill and in general bumping up Mid's and hi-Mid range. Speakers can playing into cutting thru with multiple small speakers like 10" versus single large speaker. The multiple small speaker move a lot more air compared to a single speaker, plus 10" speakers are fast responding and punchy sounding. Then speaker placement so getting them up a bit to have clear path to the audience.

 

[Jazz+]

I played a RD2000 side by side with a CP4. I hated the RD2000's action, I loved the CP4 action and it had a more present piano tone.

[Fleer]

Maybe the upcoming RD-88 will bring solace.

[cphollis]

Of the three boards you list, I'd be happiest with the Yamaha CP88 thanks to its action and native sounds, not to mention reasonable weight.

 

That being said, Nord has come up with an interesting feature along these lines: a dedicated selector button with "low", "mid" and "high" EQ curves for acoustic pianos, which I have to say is nicely done. Originally, I'm like "what's that for?" but now I find I'm using it all the time.

 

Warm, soulful ballads get "low". Punchy rock comping gets "mid". And when it's time to be heard, the "high" EQ setting cuts through the clutter quite nicely. Can you hear me now?

 

One button press, all on the same patch, all without menu diving. If you're playing EPs, you also get the scoopy Dyno curves that were so popular in the 80s.

 

Classic use case for a song: mellow intro, then punchy rhythm for verses and then it's time for the sparkly bits on chorus or solo. Sweet.

 

I'm betting that before long you'll see this feature on other stage pianos, just because it's so darn useful in a live situation.

[Reezekeys]

I don't use any of these DPs but in general, does not the acoustics of the room, the amplification system you use, the instrumentation of the rest of the band, how the other musicians play and how they EQ themselves play some part in how much or not your piano will be present in a live mix? Can you really generalize that a specific model of DP "cuts" though a mix more than another? As I see it, the only way to possibly make that case is if the basic samples were done from a "mellow" piano vs one that's inherently "bright" to begin with, like Yamahas are said to be. But I wager a lot more has to do with the other elements I listed.

 

Also, is the "live band" situation one where you play in larger venues with a sound person and a PA everyone is going into? Or is it a smaller club or restaurant where your personal amplification is responsible for 100% of your sound â for yourself, the band, and the audience? There are many variables here. My advice would be to play a few DPs and pick the one that puts the biggest smile on your face â and that should a combination of sound and feel, imo. I would not obsess over how you'll be heard in a mix. With any DP, cutting low-mids and bass (as has been mentioned by other posters, in this thread and others) lets you boost your overall volume a bit and you will be heard a little better. This is what I do.

[BbAltered]

Serious Question: how does a keyboard player know when his/her keyboard "disappears in the mix"?

 

When I am playing in an ensemble situation, I can only tell what it sounds like immediately where I am sitting. I have very little control of how the keyboard sounds "in the mix", and no perception to know how it sounds on the wider stage or in the audience.

 

The only way I can tell what the keyboard sounds like "in the mix" is to hear a mix of the music after the fact - in which case, the sound will be determined as much by the sensibilities and abilities of the person doing the mix as it is by the type of keyboard. Or if I stand in the audience while someone else plays my keyboard like I do (and 95+% of the time, I am the only keyboard player in the room).

[Ken Beaumont]

When people in the audience tell you that they can't hear you its a dead giveaway. I have heard so many bands that have a keyboard player but you can't hear them I have to wonder why did they hire a keyboard player? I asked a guitar player / band leader that question once. His answer straight faced was "to sometimes do horn stabs"! The clueless bass player nodded in agreement.

[Stokely]

^ Exactly, monitoring for the musician and what the audiences hears are typically two very different things.

 

I don't own a Roland now or have any experience with that model, but "bright" is what I think of with their piano sound...I would think it should cut through fine.

 

That said, obviously if you have a muddy sound as a band coming from your instruments then this can affect both areas. Our guitarist for example plays with too much reverb (IMO) and this tends to make both the monitor and main mix a bit cluttered (depends on the room). Effects in general are a big culprit in muddy mixes. Many rooms have their own built-in reverb, often too much. The other in my experience are musicians that don't get out of each other's way (for instance, if our guitarist is soloing up high, I lay back and play something in a different octave). Guitarists are notorious for wanting a big fat sound and this can make it hard on the bass player, etc.

 

Stereo-to-mono can cause issue too, where something that sounds glorious in stereo kind of disappears in mono. I have found again that the effects are what suffers the most, big fat swoopy pads especially can change drastically.

 

I have found that typically when I hear recordings of the band the keyboards are brighter than I thought they were while playing.

[llatham]

Of the three boards you list, I'd be happiest with the Yamaha CP88 thanks to its action and native sounds, not to mention reasonable weight.

 

That being said, Nord has come up with an interesting feature along these lines: a dedicated selector button with "low", "mid" and "high" EQ curves for acoustic pianos, which I have to say is nicely done. Originally, I'm like "what's that for?" but now I find I'm using it all the time.

 

Warm, soulful ballads get "low". Punchy rock comping gets "mid". And when it's time to be heard, the "high" EQ setting cuts through the clutter quite nicely. Can you hear me now?

 

One button press, all on the same patch, all without menu diving. If you're playing EPs, you also get the scoopy Dyno curves that were so popular in the 80s.

 

Classic use case for a song: mellow intro, then punchy rhythm for verses and then it's time for the sparkly bits on chorus or solo. Sweet.

 

I'm betting that before long you'll see this feature on other stage pianos, just because it's so darn useful in a live situation.

 

This does seem to be a pretty cool feature.

 

As a general comment on this thread is, I have to say I can't ever remember hearing two pianos that sound the same in pop songs! I mean I listen to Beatles tunes where the piano sounds drastically different to something like "Against the Wind" - and the repeated notes at the end of "Spirit of Radio" or "Rock and Roll" are less about quality and more about banging away :-D

 

From that perspective what I see is more of having the piano tone fit the song, rather than having a "great sounding piano". Every time I've played in a loud rock band any piano that sounds great at home is lost in the wedges live. It needs to be a "clangy" piano sound, which is probably why they give us patches like "Rock Piano" which is usually way brighter than a concert grand patch (and the differences in the patches are sometimes as little as EQing anyway).

 

But yeah, being able to change the EQ curve in real time beats having to change to another patch - which is pretty much what I currently do - different piano patch for different songs when I neeed to be that specific.

 

What is this "Dyno" thing? A lot of my Roland patches actually have that word in the name and I've always wondered what it meant.

 

[Motif88]

Dyno-My Piano was an expensive upgrade to a Rhodes that tweaked the action, hammers and preamp to provide a distinct sound heard on plenty of 80"s tunes... I paid a lot for my upgrade and look back somewhat fondly on hauling a Rhodes with a ton of other gear while the guitar and bass player essentially 'just showed up'....I was younger then.

[Motif88]

FYI - http://www.fenderrhodes.com/history/dyno.html

[cphollis]

@llatham

 

Having a great-sounding piano sound that can be heard, and fitting a sound to a particular song are not mutually exclusive. I think I do a decent job at both. At least, on a good night

 

For example, I now play in cover bands that cater to retirees. "Piano Man" has singing, lyrical tone. "Lady Madonna" is a highly-compressed bass monster. "Morning Has Broken" has a classical feel. "Different Drum" is all about harpsichord. A slightly detuned piano for "Tumblin' Dice". Punchy, chorused dyno Rhodes for "You're No Good".

 

And so on. All the piano voices are reasonably true to the original *and* stand above the live mix as needed. The way I know isn't what's coming through my amplification. We record every live performance to a DAW. In addition to the usual per-channel recording, we also capture FOH in stereo. So I can go back and listen to how I sounded to the audience, and then adjust as needed.

 

Having a good instrument helps, as does decent amplification. But mostly it takes a ton of experimentation in live situations.

[uhoh7]

Our guitarist for example plays with too much reverb (IMO) and this tends to make both the monitor and main mix a bit cluttered (depends on the room). Effects in general are a big culprit in muddy mixes. Many rooms have their own built-in reverb, often too much.

 

Reverb is like a bandaid for a bad envelope. Way oversold and way over used, I get ill just thinking about it and spend alot time turning it down or off on presets. The last good reverb was that box on some Hammonds.

 

In contrast to modern boards on stage, a real tonewheel is seldom lost in the mix. Not becasue they are rare, but the texture of a Hammond and 122, soft or loud, is distinct and unmistakable, even in a saturated mix.

 

[pianomike]

I have the RD 2000 and I do not think it would have any problem standing out in a band if rolled off some of the bass and kept the reverb way down , the stage grand sounds really nice when tweaked properly , and for the sluggish keys I have found out if you raise your seat up to wear you are hovering over the keybed it makes it a lot easier to play fast and to articulate much more accurately , you might need to raise the highs on the eq also . Make sure the sound man has you turned up , some of them think that piano should be way in the background .

 

[shining310]

This is just my opinion but I have played in loud bands for decades with several different models of digital pianos and/or workstations. I don't feel that any particular model keyboard will cut through the mix or get lost in the mix more than any other. Every keyboard I have used has a variety of presets and some internal sounds cut through a mix better than others. When it comes to acoustic piano sounds, in particular, the presets that sound the best through headphones often get lost in the mix while thinner/brighter/more compressed presets cut through.

[allan_evett]

@llatham

Having a good instrument helps, as does decent amplification. But mostly it takes a ton of experimentation in live situations.

 

^^^^

THIS.

 

For typical rock piano playing (where there is plenty of guitar in the low-mid range), think boosting and lowering frequencies, vs 'cutting through' or 'punching through' - especially areas that contrast the frequencies where other instruments reside (rhythm guitar, most notably). What has worked for me is having a sweepable EQ on the instrument, either onboard or external; ideally 5-band. Try scooping within the 375 Hz - 500Hz range, raising 6K slightly, then see how that works. I've dialed that in on Yamaha AWM tones, Nord samples, and Roland SN pianos (though the older, sample-based Roland pianos tones are sometimes a better choice); it has worked well. When I exaggerate these EQ suggestions my piano sometimes sounds a bit thin by itself, but it finds a definite spot in the mains and monitors.

[llatham]

FYI - http://www.fenderrhodes.com/history/dyno.html

 

Thanks, that was super informative.

[Legatoboy]

I have complained about this w/Rolands many times here on the Forum.... though I just watched and listened to a vid of me playing my FP-80 live outside and it was not bad in FOH mix...

I find Roland pianos 'in general' very prone to the 'lost in the mix syndrome' ever since they went to their SRX standard in the 90's sometime... not always, and I do dig their gear... but often... (to many times)

when i was gigging alot 1 - 2 -3 gigs a week in various rooms, it became too much for me to deal with... so I sort of gave up on Roland pianos for live usage on a regular basis for moderately loud music like blues/funk/rock/loud jazz etc... many times the pianos on those gigs were not run FOH... they were smaller rooms!

 

I find their pianos in regard to stage/room sound are susceptible to the guitar and bass freq. cancellation pretty badly..depends on the ambiance of the room /And also some Kawai's I have tried live, they also gave me a similar problem... I'm pretty good with amplification and EQing... not and expert but generally good! Yamaha's and Nords are better I find and held up better room to room in that regard...sort of a pet peeve of mine w/Roland DP's having blown through a lot of cash searching for the best DP to use in a steady working band! I do enjoy their gear, their synths are great... just problems live with their DP sound in a mix!

[Mr. Nightime]

I've found that there are piano sounds that sound really beautiful in a solo setting, but just don't cut through.

 

I've also found that choosing a piano sound that may be a bit bright sounding for solo piano, is just right in a band situation. It helps give the piano it's own sonic landscape.

 

Some time ago I would play a lot at my church, mostly using my Yamaha MM8. They had a really beautiful 6' grand as well.

 

The sound man commented that he preferred my MM8 to the grand, because it was easier to get it properly placed in the mix. This was important to him, as he was a pretty good piano player as well.

 

I'm not a Roland fan at all, but I would not be surprised that a piano sound could be found that would cut through the mix.

 

I don't really like the sound of the AP on my Hammond SK2, but, listening to a cell phone recording from the crowd, it can be heard, and in a band situation, sounds pretty good.

 

The best sounding piano in the world is no good, if it can't be heard.

 

[The Piano Man]

Any Roland Integra or XV5050 users care to suggest their favourite samples for cutting through?

 

I own both (should probably sell the 5050) but find myself going back to an old Technics P30 piano for live playing.

 

Any particular patches/tones you like for cutting through?

 

I have memories of liking old RD600, RD150 and FP3/4 sounds. Any idea if these samples are on my modules and, if so, what they are called?

[harmonizer]

On my XV-5050 I started with the standard "PA 001 64 Voice Piano", and put it in a Performance in the User Bank, to allow me to decrease its sustain quite a bit.

I did not tweak any EQ settings.

Just try not to listen to it very much before playing it in the context of your rock-and-roll band. It does suck standalone.

The same patch is available in the FA 06-07-08.

This shows it in use in a song that has a lot of with a lot of noises going on at the same time between the guitar ostenato, piano chords, and lead and backup vocals.

The AP sound is coming from my XV-5050 not from my Electro.

[video:youtube]

 

[hardware]

Looking for the perfect 88 key weighted stage piano for use in a live band. I keep seeing comments on certain devices such as "sounds great practicing alone, but disappears in the mix with a full ensemble". This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I would think that it is just a matter of EQ'ing things right. But it is a consistent complaint people make regarding the Roland RD-2000.

 

Is this a valid concern? Are there RD-2000 players out there that play in a band without issue?

 

I'm torn between Yamaha CP88, Roland RD-2000, Kawai MP11SE, and Korg SV-2.

 

I"ve noticed this ever since I used a CP80 in the '80"s.

 

In Gigastudio I layered GigaPiano with the VintAudio Upright.

These days Keyscape and PianoTeq.

 

Can"t speak for ROMplers other than the Casio PX. Which I layered with a detuned PianoTeq.

Something about the perfectly tuned digital samples doesn"t cut through.

 

My Rhodes, EPianos, Horns, Strings, anything sampled gets layered.

Otherwise it"s lifeless except when soloing, but even then when layered I get a bigger sound using less db.

 

 

 

 

 

[BluesKeys]

I have and play both the RD800 and RD2000 and I find that with a little tweeking they are real similar. I play in an 8pc horn band and it never gets lost in the mix.

[paulmapp8306]

A bit late to the party - but just to make comment on the RD2000. I have one and I play it in a band situation.

 

I REALLY like the V-Piano sounds, There not "stage ready" as such because there based on an on the room rather than mic'd up piano. You can easily solve that with the EQ - just apply a typicka EQ as you would in a studio mix and its there.

 

The other big thing about the RD, and where many detractors just dont understand the board. They say its lacking in dynamics, or not bright enough, too bland etc. Many prefer the sampled sounds on board (but they sound too scooped and lacking in body to me). However there are 2 big things here people overlook (some dont know - some do but havent spent the time - and on demo you just woundnt realise).

 

1st - keytouch. By default its medium but many fond light or - lighter setting. The key to understanding this is that sampled pianos have layers - most common 8. When you change how you strike the keys, the board triggers the relevant sample. Given there are 128 midi steps - each sample lives in a band of midi values. At the outer edge of that band it transitions to the ext sample (cross fades). BUT your still hitting the mellowest sound at 16, and the brightest/loudest at 112 (midi value). On the RD (V-Piano) EVERY midi value is different as its not sampled so you have to be able to trigger the full 0-127 midi range and many cant. i have had a midi monitor on many people playing my RD - and they tend to hit around 8/9 a the softest and 120 at the hardest. Thats fine for standard sampled pianos but your missing the outer ranges of the RDs dynamic range. Reducing the key touch makes it easier to trigger the highest of that range. Its a case of playing and monitoring until you can just hit 127 with your fastest/hardest stroke. That gives the dynamics. yuou then have to change youe style a little at the sioft end (or youll never get the mellowest tones). Once this is done though its really great.

 

2nd. The V-Piano engine is highly configurable. Not only resonance, lid position, soundboard characture etc - BUT each individual note has a pitch, level and character setting. The Characture is key - and there are 10 settings for each note. This determines how the note sounds from mellow, to bright, overtones or not etc. You can pretty much make your own piano up. It does take time though.

 

Between setting the keytouch correctly, and adjusting the character of each note so it responds to your touch int he way you want....and then you can EQ the whole thing to sit in the mix better should you need (venu dependant usually). it can be the roundest, mellowest piano tone you'll ever have (for ballads drenched in reverb say) OR it can be the brightest, most cutting attach you could need.

[PianoMan51]

By an order of magnitude, the most used controls on my CP-4 are the graphic EQ sliders. Sometimes on a per-song basis. I"m my own studio engineer and I"m only set 'flat" for completely solo sections. I don"t believe that this could be done by setting up pre-sets at home.

[ElmerJFudd]

When playing with band. Lighten up your low end to give the bass some space and find the area in your mids that helps it cut when all are playing. Somewhere in the 400-1k range you need to sweep to find where to boost. It will sound like ass when you play alone (most of the patches on your instrument are designed for playing solo). If you play gigs with a PA and audio engineer- he"ll typically do this for you audience side if he/she is any good. But if you are playing without, you have to do it yourself.

[Baldwin Funster]

Jerry "killer" Lee Lewis didn't have that problem. Have you tried playing with the heel of your boot?

[Docbop]

Thing about those tiny Lunchbox guitar amps and how they can be used in a live situation, why because the the little speaker basically only puts out upper midrange and that will cut thru in a live setting. You have to find you a opening in the sound of the band be it in the studio or live you have to listen to where you can slide in and not create mud. Every room is different and even the acoustics of the room will change over the gig as more people come and go. So have your basic EQ you like and start with that, then tweak it during sound check. Then thru out the gig listen and tweak if necessary, this where having a roadie or someone you trust their ear to advise you.

 

Learning to dial in your gear is something not enough people today take time to practice.