Too excited

[J. Dan]

I love the stuff we're doing for our next CD and am so proud of my solos. I want to just share my solos in here, if nothing else, but I'm not the songwriter and probably shouldn't share stuff without approval. So I guess I'll sit on it for now...but I am SO excited. LOVING what we are doing..

[Tusker]

 

The best reasons to play music, indeed.

 

[Adan]

Sounds like it makes you feel alive, which makes your moniker all the more ironic.

[Joe Muscara]

[MAJUSCULE]

Yeah man.

[BbAltered]

Let us know when you are ready: we would love to hear it as well.

[EscapeRocks]

Awesome Dan!! Can't wait to hear what you've done

[Morrissey]

Love the enthusiasm! So fun to create something new!

[J. Dan]

I felt like I should follow up with a little bit of a side conversation. I wasn't going to at first but then decided that it may end up being helpful for folks in similar situations.

 

I came in late on the last CD and really only had measurable impact on a couple songs, though one had a keyboard solo. I came up with a pretty blazing solo and everybody absolutely loved it, but I felt like it was pretty low in the final mix. Being the new guy not really knowing everybody very well since everybody else was happy I never pressed the matter. Oh, and this is progressive metal with 2 guitar players and I never played in a metal band - mostly 80s and classic rock covers - so it was already outside my comfort zone,

 

Fast forward to this CD. Since I was already on board the primary song writer all along has been telling me he's leaving lots of space for me and the keys will be important, and that's been true. So I worked pretty long and hard on this last solo. Emailed the track (that's more or less how we're doing it - get together and lay down the basic parts together, then the guitars come back in for their solos but since I have my own studio I just email them and the singer is the one mixy so he lays down his parts on his own). A bunch of group messages go around praising my awesome solo which is when I started this thread, riding high. Guitars lay their solos right after mine and the singer sends out a rough mix. Now it's just rough so everyone can hear where we're at, but the keys are buried almost like it's just an instrumental section where the keys just happen to be a little busier in the background, then guitars come in blaring.

 

I should have said something but a personality flaw that I know full well I have is that I'll be passive and diplomatic even if something is bothering me and let it stew until I kind of erupt. A few days later with the help of a little alcohol, I ended up firing off a text to the BL and songwriter essentially saying that I had understood that he wanted serious keys and I felt they were just going to buried like they were in the song in the last CD then I don't know why I should work so hard. I definitely was more aggressive over the whole thing than I should have been. To his credit, he didn't immediately reply back, then when he did, he called instead of texting.

 

He told me that BEFORE I texted that, he had been over at the singer's house and said almost exactly the same thing - those keys are awesome, turn them up, why aren't they as loud as the guitar solo? We ended up having a reallly great discussion about that and a bunch of other things and he reassured me that the one rough mix was not indicative of what to expect, and told me he was really happy with my contributions, So I left the conversation back feeling like I did when I initially started this,

 

I need to be more comfortable speaking my mind and not holding things in, but I think I also fell prey to the napolean complex we keyboard players sometimes get when surrounded by guitars....and ithis instance especially in a metal context.

[J. Dan]

Interestingly, he told me that he actually asked the singer to turn DOWN the guitars. He shared with me that he wondered if the singer subconsciously thought since he's the BL, songwriter, and lead guitar, that his part should be out front, rather than just mix it like any other instrument.

[The Real MC]

Pet peeve for MANY keyboard players. Happens too often when a band member - usually a guitar player - is in charge of the mix.

 

Happens with professional releases too. Rush concert DVDs after 2000 are heavy on Alex's guitar, and you had to strain to hear Neil. A quick read of the credits reveals that the guitar player was in charge of the mix... ARGH! I've been to two Rush concerts and the mix was FAR better.

 

I bought a DVD live concert of Thin Lizzy. I knew they were a "guitar band" and was delighted to see a keyboard player on an Oberheim OBX, and watched the DVD in anticipation of how he played with a guitar heavy band... and you couldn't hear ANY keyboard the rest of the concert!!!

[Nathanael_I]

I am listening to your story with interest. It's cool that you are doing originals with a skilled group of players and finding your way. The world needs more original music. Also glad that the balance issues are being resolved.

 

I mix when our band records. The fact is that keys and guitar largely overlap in the frequency domain. So it takes careful arrangement so that each part has clear air, and judicious EQ and specialization/panning to make room for everything. I also find it interesting how the guitars and bass interact. Often the guitar sound that "works" in the mix has some rolloff on the low end as well.

 

If you listen to Nightwish, that will give you a pretty good sense of where the guitars have to live in order to mix it up with full keys, distorted metal bass, a huge drum kit, etc.

 

Unless you are doing harmonized or unison leads, it is pretty much the case that if one is playing melodically, the other must be on rhythm with the bass/kick or pure texture (pad type sounds). I also notice how important synth tone is when going over distorted guitar. The interplay of guitar harmonics with the synth tones has to work, and what works is often more aggressive than I would choose without the guitars. I'm learning how to anticipate the kinds of sounds that will work over a solid hard rock/metal rhythms.

 

Not telling you anything, but it really does take a lot of musical discipline to play in a band where all the players are skilled improvisors and part writers. Not everyone's voice can lead all the time, and musical choices need to be made on what role each instrument is playing in each section of the song.

[analogika]

See, that"s why we don"t have a guitar player.

 

My left hand (Wurlitzer) and the right (B3) can argue among themselves over mix dominance.

[J. Dan]

It seems like my intended point was missed. In MY story, a 6 piece with 2 guitars playing metal, the happy ending is that the guitar players WANTED more keys. That's the happy ending, yet everybody see,s to be interpreting this as another example of all the damn too-loud guitar players. That was my intention. My followup was intended for the EXACT OPPOSITE to communicate how my own keyboard playing insecurities caused me to make a wrong and Ill-reasoned text and in my real-life story the guitar player does the right thing and the mix ends up perfect. But somehow this turned into "guitar=bad". Not my intention at all so please stop. Geez.

[Mr. Nightime]

My thread about the guitar player turning down was in some ways similar.

 

He was entirely too loud on stage, and rather than be passive and suffer through it, I said something.

 

He turned down so the mix was better.

 

This is a band where I get to be out front a lot, and that's just where they want me. My rhythm level should be mixed with the guitar rhythm level, and my lead level should be as prominent as the guitar player's lead. We both play lead on every song,

 

Sometimes past experiences can jade your perceptions causing you to jump to conclusions. Happens to everyone.

 

It's just good to see that the recipient of the email understood this, agreed with your points, and was able to work it out with you.

 

A rare find in these times, indeed.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

It's a great feeling to be part of a team that appreciates the whole as more than just the sum of its parts, where it's not about ego and "turn me up more than the next guy." Congratulations, and I look forward to hearing what you've been working on!

[KuruPrionz]

Good story, I got where you were going with it. We join bands to share music but politics will always rear it's head sooner or later.

 

Hiring a Producer who has NO connection to the band is wise, getting a mix that serves the song is certainly one of them. Outside opinion can be useful, acquaintances may have surprising observations.

 

Ideally, somebody in the band will have a higher level of Arrangement skills. The goal is overcoming a what is seemingly a Universal Fear Of Silence.

 

Guitara can play 6 notes simultaneously, keyboards 10 and bass 4 or 5. With two guitars, that is potentially 22 simultaneous notes in the same "space" (2 guitars and one ieyboard, bassists should be down lower for the most part).

 

Democracy might work in a 3 piece, where you can have simple discussions. There is more space in a smaller ensemble, a plus as long as some space is left alone. Larger ensembles usually function more effectively as a benevolent dictatorship.

 

If a chord is needed underneath the vocals, 3 notes is enough to describe that chord (sometimes just 2 above the bassline). Any one instrument could play all 3 notes if the other 2 simply remain silent. Or, each of the 3 could contribute a single note.

 

Everybody playing fuller chords is a certain recipe for clogging up the area that the vocalist or soloist needs open to express their part of the song.

 

With restraint, the band and the songs will have distinct personality instead of the usually unintended result of a big wash of indistict bigness.

 

It has been my experience in over 40 years of gigging/writing/etc. that Fear Of Silence is universal and it is rare to find players that are not afflicted to some degree.

This is not to say that is cannot be learned, even I did that eventually.

 

Nathaniel_I's comments above are wisdom born of experience.

 

One of my favorite tools for improving a band is a small recorder.

 

Record your live gigs then give everyone a copy. Do not say anything, let the recordings tell the truth.

 

Cheers, Kuru

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RudyS]

Cool story Dan! I"m very interested in the end result, you blazing on your dominion!

 

Rock on!!!

[mate stubb]

Guitara can play 6 notes simultaneously, keyboards 10 and bass 4 or 5. With two guitars, that is potentially 22 simultaneous notes in the same "space" (2 guitars and one ieyboard, bassists should be down lower for the most part).

 

Guitarz can play 6 notes, but then they add 8 more guitar tracks to fill up all the sonic space....

[KuruPrionz]

Guitara can play 6 notes simultaneously, keyboards 10 and bass 4 or 5. With two guitars, that is potentially 22 simultaneous notes in the same "space" (2 guitars and one ieyboard, bassists should be down lower for the most part).

 

Guitarz can play 6 notes, but then they add 8 more guitar tracks to fill up all the sonic space....

 

Of course, they always do that.

Then the keyboard guy always wants to have every sound on every board on every song because he owns them so he might as well use them.

 

None of this has to do with my post, which is about EVERYBODY learning to be comfortable with leaving space in music.

 

Stereotyping much? :- D Cheers, Kuru.

 

[mate stubb]

Guitara can play 6 notes simultaneously, keyboards 10 and bass 4 or 5. With two guitars, that is potentially 22 simultaneous notes in the same "space" (2 guitars and one ieyboard, bassists should be down lower for the most part).

 

Guitarz can play 6 notes, but then they add 8 more guitar tracks to fill up all the sonic space....

 

Of course, they always do that.

Then the keyboard guy always wants to have every sound on every board on every song because he owns them so he might as well use them.

 

None of this has to do with my post, which is about EVERYBODY learning to be comfortable with leaving space in music.

 

Stereotyping much? :- D Cheers, Kuru.

 

No, just experience.

 

[KuruPrionz]

Guitara can play 6 notes simultaneously, keyboards 10 and bass 4 or 5. With two guitars, that is potentially 22 simultaneous notes in the same "space" (2 guitars and one ieyboard, bassists should be down lower for the most part).

 

Guitarz can play 6 notes, but then they add 8 more guitar tracks to fill up all the sonic space....

 

Of course, they always do that.

Then the keyboard guy always wants to have every sound on every board on every song because he owns them so he might as well use them.

 

None of this has to do with my post, which is about EVERYBODY learning to be comfortable with leaving space in music.

 

Stereotyping much? :- D Cheers, Kuru.

 

No, just experience.

 

This is a cool thread. You wanna start a different thread or just trolling?

[EscapeRocks]

Of course, they always do that.

Then the keyboard guy always wants to have every sound on every board on every song because he owns them so he might as well use them.

 

None of this has to do with my post, which is about EVERYBODY learning to be comfortable with leaving space in music.

 

Stereotyping much? :- D Cheers, Kuru.

 

No, just experience.

This is a cool thread. You wanna start a different thread or just trolling?

 

Tell me you are not calling Moe (mate stubb) a troll....

[KuruPrionz]

[quote=EscapeRocks

 

Tell me you are not calling Moe (mate stubb) a troll....

 

This a thread about one of our members working with his bandmates to improve the sound of their band.

He is happy because he is making progress and it is good for the music.

I think that is great and spoke to my own journey towards making better sounding music.

 

It is not a thread for stereotyping other musicians. Thanks, Kuru