DeepMind 12 vs Virus TI2

[Odnt]

I'm buying a new keyboard for Christmas this year (I know, it's only June). I've wanted a Virus TI2 for a while now. I had a Virus Snow and really loved the sounds, but it had issues and I returned it (kept crashing). I'm thinking a 61 key TI2 will be more reliable.

 

I've heard people comparing the DM12 with the TI2. I'm 3 hours away from a music store so I can't do any comparison myself.

 

I have a feeling if I order a DM12 I'll be disappointed and have to deal with sending it back.

 

I'm a classic rock weekend warrior BTW, just go out and have fun, make my $100 a night, and I'm happy. So that's the use it will get.

 

I'd welcome any comments from the forum. I'm not too gassed yet and am trying to make a good decision. I might make it to a music store yet this summer and get a chance on a DM12 - the Virus I already feel good about

 

Thanks

[RandyFF]

Gearslutz have a ridiculously long thread on the DM12.

 

At 3 times the price, the T12 would likely be in another category. 61 keys would be nice! The DM12 is the first synth that caught my ear with its demos, but preference in sounds and filters and user interface is very personal.

[Bill H.]

 

 

For a classic rock band, I'd highly suggest adding the Studiologic Sledge Black to you shopping list. It's laid out much more like the classic polysynths of the time, and has 61 keys to boot. Price is around $1000.

 

http://cdns3.gear4music.com/media/18/183149/1200/preview.jpg

[Stokely]

I had the Virus b (keyboard) and used it in a classic rock setting. Programmed an oberheim-like patch for Styx etc. Tremendous keyboard in every way. The build quality, keybed, everything. I made about 10 patches and then had fun changing them on the fly (something I had no idea I was going to do when I bought it)...most things are there on the knobs and it's just a joy to tweak.

 

I recently played the DM12 at guitar center and it had a similar compact "heaviness" about the build quality. Keys were nice though I can't recall if it had aftertouch. Sounded good but they never have good speakers at those stores (wtf?) and I was short on time. Aftertouch on the Virus is outstanding, it's very easy to control it with that keybed (some keyboards I've played it's too easy to accidentally invoke it if that makes sense.)

[Bill H.]

Something I didn't notice about the layout of the DM12 until actually I played one is that there are no bank or program select buttons, or a 10 key pad. The only way to access programs from the keyboard is to scroll through them one at a time.

 

If you are using it live for more than occasional sounds, you'll probably have to run it off an app of some sort, or laptop.

 

It also will not split or layer different sounds.

 

In order to accurately approximate many classic detuned osc sounds, you need to run it in one of it's unison modes - cutting polyphony in half (or more).

 

So although the DM12 is a nice sounding synth (and analog to boot) I'm not sure it's the ideal fit for what you're doing.

 

 

 

 

[DulceLabs.com]

Hey there and welcome to the forum!

 

If we are JUST talking those 2 (DM12 vs T12) I'd go with the T12. It's just superior in every way.

 

Of course, there are many other options out there that will serve you well sound wise, and for less than the T12, but it seems like you've connected with that Virus sound.

[ElmerJFudd]

With the analogue renaissance the Virus and the Sledge haven't been the hot topic lately. As suggested above, the Sledge is a lot of synth-tastic fun in a virtual analogue at a great price. Obviously the Virus is the mothership of VAs, but pricey and not as knobby. If you're idea of a rock band synth is based in the 80s and a Roland Juno-106 and the like is nostalgic for you - the DM-12 is more like that on steroids with fx up the wazoo.

[drohm]

I don't have the DM12, but I have the TI2 and love it. However, I do not gig with it. It seems to be best in a studio setting. The computer integration is nice. I would probably use a less expensive board for live gigs...although I sometimes use my MoogVoyager . Have you considered the Prophet 6? I love mine and it would be my choice for a classic rock band. I'm guessing you would love any of them. All good choices.

[Odnt]

Thanks everyone for the great help. I should have noted I am currently using a Roland VR-09. I originally told the fellas I didn't want to lug around a second keyboard, but it would make playing tunes like Nights in White Satin one heck of a lot easier. Dang splits and program changes up the wazoo for that one.

 

On a similar note - last year I wanted to replace a pair of EV 15's I was using as stage monitoring, and perused this forum and discovered the K12 was very popular here, so I bought one and have been very happy with it.

[cphollis]

I've had a DeepMind 12 for a while, no complaints. BTW, has aftertouch. I find it usable, but I'm no expert. Rock-solid build: weight, knobs, no wall wart, etc. Super bang for buck.

 

Sounds are great to my innocent ears, but I've got awesome amplification. Plenty of modulation and evolving sounds. And the effects section is unreal.

 

The way I get around sound recalls is simply to build a sequential song set, and just click to the next one on the set list. A bit more work, but for $999 MSRP, a tough deal to deny.

[ElmerJFudd]

Contemplating a DM-12 desktop, but I'm not sure about dimensions yet. My guess is 18-19" rack space wide. Maybe 4U tall? So what... 7"? Then again DSI has desktop versions of almost everything now... But the DM-12 sure has an extensive fx section.

[uhoh7]

I'm resurecting this thread, as I think it's an increasingly interesting topic.

 

At the moment these are two of the most interesting values in Polysynths. The DM12 49 can be had new for just over 500US, and I just bought a Virus TI 61 for 1150 in excellent condition. That's the going rate these days for a TI, the TI2 is another 5-700. (not worth difference for me.)

 

DM 12 was first synth I actually learned. I knew about ADSR by late 80s, but I never did much. I had a Proteus 1, but I just played presets. I have upright piano--great one, but like lots of folks I spent alot of time looking for decent keys to play on my E-boards and tweaked them a little. The DM12 was a real eye opener. I looked at many "virgin" synths, but it seemed like it would do the most while still having a analog base (just to keep it real). Also the huge hype on release created a bazillion videos on how to use it. I watched all of them. After about 9 months I had my own presets which I prefered for general playing to any I could find already made. I was able to use velocity note on and off to get much more variation in articulations that I have felt before. I had alot of fun making the mod wheel effect a bunch of stuff too. And of course I made some pads.

 

This brings me to something the Virus and DM12 have in common: bad reputation. Not beacuse they break. Not because they are cheap. Not because they sound bad. They both have a poor political reputation in the synth world. They are both black sheep. Or wolves dressed up as black sheep LOL.

 

Here they are together in an interesting little video:

[video:youtube]

 

Basically that is showing a Virus emulating a DM12 pretty well. Let's pretend for a sec that's all it could do in terms of sound creation. Why would I want one? Besides a keybed preference, it comes down to Multi-timbrality and the programing to back it up. DM12 is one synth one package. Virus TI is 16 synths in one package. I know, really it's about 4, whatever. Behind that is abiltiy to make "remote" templates that router all the knobs to whatever midi you want. DM12 does not have this, although the sliders do send MIDI, so it is possible, just way less easy to use as MIDI controller, on paper at least.

 

No other instrument has come into my living room and instantly taken the stature of my upright and my Hammond. The Virus TI 61 has done that, for now at least. How?

 

Virus TI by unoh7, Upper Manual courtsey of Dubreq.

 

First it's always the build. The DM12 has a great build. The only thing that feels cheap are the keys, but they don't play cheap. In fact they play really well. The Virus presents itself and simply thunders to your fingers: "Ich bin der benchmark!!!!" The keys are Fatar TP/ 8S. This is what the Numa 2cx should really have. They are diving board, and of course we all know waterfall is far more glisstacular, but more important they are longer, less travel, and softer sprung. It's the best synth bed I have felt yet. I look forward to Osmose. OK, then you have the overall Virus case: all metal, wood cheeks, as is DM12.

 

Deepmind by unoh7, on Flickr

 

But where the Virus lays down the law is the interface. I feel like I'm running one of those ships in Kubrick's 2001. No sliders. We don't use no stinking sliders. Or endless knobs. We have 32 gorgeous rock solid rubberized german knobs each with a discrete start/stop and a pointer carved which you can feel. IE they can be used in the dark. The buttons are very good too, but I don't think they send MIDI, so I'm not counting them LOL. Menu diving is fairly painless. Obviously alot of thought went into the layout. Each patch comes up on a very nice looking little screen with three "soft knobs" under it. These will do whatever they are told by the patch maker, and that can be 12 things at once; they have discrete names which vary. Live, this means you have three more Mod Wheels, right there.

 

Virus TI by unoh7, on Flickr

 

The Virus TI is fully mature, but not yet deprecating. I wish I could say the same! So within 30mins I had the TI interface up and running in Logic X, synced and fully responding. Catalina.....forget it. But I know better than to update my macs more than 2 steps behind. I don't know who I hate more, Apple or Microsoft. The latter are pathetic these days, but no less craven than ever. I digress.

 

My goal is to be using the thing without any DAW. I'll sequence mainly with MPC1000. But for now, partly because the Access tutorials are using it, I will bite my tongue and use the plugin with it's y2k representational cartoon esthetic. And we will see how far I get Can this be a real, no holds barred, master controller? OK one hold is already barred: poly AT. I think it takes it, but it won't send it. For that, I'll blame Fatar.

 

I'll post my progress, or lack of, here in the next months. Wait I hear a lyric.........."In the months before the Osmose comes.....got my fingers on a virus......" Uhoh, Wuhan is coming to mind. Jeez, I hope I live to see my Osmose!

 

 

 

 

 

[Stokely]

I owned a Virus kb and regret selling it. I also think it was the best keybed I've ever played, in particular the aftertouch was so easy to control (which is at least partly the programming). Love the build quality, not light but quite compact and easy to load on/off a stand.

 

I've only played my friend's DM12 and it's very well built. It didn't have the "oomph" that I remember with my Virus..."punchiness" might be a better description??...in a mix not a big deal but I used mine live. Pull out a synth lead and that thing had balls for days (there's something to picture). Now, it's not like he knew it that well yet and I certainly didn't. But it didn't knock me over like my Virus did immediately. But a keyboard for 500 bucks with aftertouch? iT's a stupid good deal. There are midi controllers that cost more than that.

 

I got my Kb for 620 bucks and I'd get it again in a heartbeat. For 11-1300 I'd probably be looking hard at a Prophet rev2 (was quoted around 1200 from an online store) but that's partially because I've always wanted a Prophet going back 30 years or so...it was the sound of my dreams! Oberheim too, we'll see what Behringer does with their ob-xa clone! I'd definitely throw the Virus Ti into that ring, they just seem to be hard to come by and prices don't seem to be dropping as time goes by...perhaps the opposite.

[uhoh7]

I gotta look at the Rev 2, great feedback thank you.

 

[video:youtube]

 

This is a nice no-nonesense look at the panel and how to use it.

 

Part: 2

 

[video:youtube]

 

This thing is a serious weapon.

 

 

[Nathanael_I]

The Fatar 8/S action is the best synth action around (at least until Osmose comes out). I have four synths with that action. All poly-synths. I will happily pay more to have this action. It is easy to check with a MIDI monitor - it has more expressive control than any other synth action I've had in the studio. The Waldorf Quantum has it.... and that is on the list.

[KeyboardEric]

I'm resurecting this thread, as I think it's an increasingly interesting topic.

At the moment these are two of the most interesting values in Polysynths. The DM12 49 can be had new for just over 500US, and I just bought a Virus TI 61 for 1150 in excellent condition. That's the going rate these days for a TI, the TI2 is another 5-700. (not worth difference for me.)

 

Just wondering where I can find a DM12 at this price point. For a new one, I only see the mid $800 range (which is still reasonable).

[Stokely]

One dealer in particular will generally give you deals if you ask for a quote, or at least they have for me pretty consistently when I ask. My buddy got his for around that, perhaps a bit more. Not sure I'm allowed to put it here, message me if not.

[uhoh7]

I'm resurecting this thread, as I think it's an increasingly interesting topic.

At the moment these are two of the most interesting values in Polysynths. The DM12 49 can be had new for just over 500US, and I just bought a Virus TI 61 for 1150 in excellent condition. That's the going rate these days for a TI, the TI2 is another 5-700. (not worth difference for me.)

 

Just wondering where I can find a DM12 at this price point. For a new one, I only see the mid $800 range (which is still reasonable).

 

Wow, the price has gone up since last winter. Must be the trade issues. Looks like I paid 588 delivered, and might have been "open box"

 

Here is where I got mine

 

They are fine, I also got a great deal on the RD-8 from them.

 

Looks like going rate is now a bit over 650. I think you could hit that over the phone with many sellers.

 

Now, in terms of features, a good TI for 1200 is a even better deal, really. But it's more money, and probably harder to learn. To many options LOL. Also no where near as many slick how to videos, I think just because it's older. But it does all the DM stuff and quite a bit more. And you get 16 for the price of one. Multi-timbral.

 

A four part deepmind with 12 voices per part, just leave the interface and add a few menus and ossilators: that would be so great. Poor man's andromeda.

 

I'm really curious to see how many parts the Osmose will have. I could not resist that pre-order.

 

[KeyboardEric]

Wow, the price has gone up since last winter. Must be the trade issues. Looks like I paid 588 delivered, and might have been "open box"

 

Here is where I got mine

 

 

Interesting. Thanks for the lead! I think it's technically a used model or like you said "open box" for that price. Still quite the bargain.

[Ken Beaumont]

I got mine on Sweetwater when they were $799. Yes they have gone back up. I was looking at a Desktop model but got the one with keys when the price was lowered.

[uhoh7]

Just an update on learning the TI 61.....

 

Besides the obvious stuff mentioned above, keybed, build etc.

Pros:

Like the Sledge, this is a digital synth which is not trying to make up a new world.....e.g. Yamaha.....but trying to leverage our knowledge of the past and traditional subtractive analog synths. The basic options everywhere, from arp to envelope, are familar. Like the JP-8000 and others this is a true VA at the fundamental level.

 

The DM12 is a great board to compare it to. Where it leaves the DM12 is in the variety of Oscillator types, the multiple envelopes for them, the easy balance adjustments, and the same thing with respect to the filters. The dual filters have multiple analog pole options and a host of digital options, can be placed parallell or in series.

 

Hiding in various menus are little features which, when engaged, change everything. Voices....immediate fattness to anything. The Vocoder thing, which is way more complex than I thought. Effects....the DM 12 has excellent effects and they really broaden what that synth can do exponetially (via digital). The TI has less of them, but they seem very very well done. In many studios, apparently the TIs are the effects box of choice.

 

Bottomline, as I'm doing the TI "bootcamp", the fundamental choices of tone generation and wide range of moduation sources are really impressive. You can get alot of noises out of this thing the DM12 can't make. I wonder if there is a more broad synth available. Montage, Kronos or something like them maybe. No sampling at all with TI.

 

Apparently the Blofeld is complimentary, and can do things not possible with TI. I want to learn more about that. Desktop Blofeld is great value; on my list, which has shrunk, of possible tools to get. With the considerable power of the TI to create moog-like sounds and my little analog gen R8 Stylophone, I'm starting to think I don't need a model D or a neutron. And in October maybe...another player is coming to my little world: the osmose. I need to stay calm.

 

Cons: Does anybody ever finish anything?

This board is 16 parts with layout options for everyone, and the abiltiy to reassign any MIDI channel to any part. Put 4 parts on one channel your keys effect all parts. Only one problem: the knobs effect one channel only, but all parts on the channel. Not Ideal.

 

Any complex of knobs on any MIDI synth can potentially be pointed anywhere, and toggled between templates. Any fool like me working to control multiple pieces of hardware can see that, and what a no-brainer it is to give it to users. Such control is uses very little space on rom/ram/flash. Less than a single sample on and old rompler. It's just code.

 

The TI has an elaborate abilty to make templates to route knobs, but the simple switches to direct and flip these templates live.......are not yet apparent to me. The buttons don't do any external midi at all.

 

So once again we have a gorgeous piece of hardware with all guts onboard, this beast should be a layering dream. But we forgot to make it feasible with code. Not a priority for Mr Kemper, apparently.

 

For 1150, it is a steal, these jaw dropping (and all too common) omissions non-withstanding. It's a wonderful synth to play and to program...per preset. Many examples of excellent design in both layout and organization.

 

As a MIDI controller I rank it equal to the NUMA CX2, 3 of 5 stars at best, and sadly not a fault of the hardware, but the humans not coding simple options, obvious to anyone trying to CONTROL multiple synths. My little Nektar T4 just went in to get it's misbehaving sliders addressed. It has lots of MIDI options, and pleasant keys....great channel aftertouch. When it gets home I may have a day job in store for those 49 keys.

 

And the scarlet "A" letter carrying Yamaha Genos looks to be perhaps the most full featured MIDI controller I have looked hard at. Quirky but seems like the workarounds are there. When I see a nice one for 3k I may jump, but I've also been watching all the fancy articulations in some VSTs......no no. It's a no no. Daw-no. LOL.

 

Now I'm off to re-learn Hex. gag.