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Electro-like controller for iPad?


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Hello folks,

 

As discussed with anotherscott in the B-3X iPad app thread, I'm currently in the market for a new iPad-driven controller...hopefully to replace my trusty Nord Electro 3 SW73.

 

Here's what I'd like:

 

1. same form factor as the NE3 SW73, ideally a little lighter if possible

2. same semi-weighted action and key layout as the NE3 SW73

3. ability to send MIDI *and* audio over the USB bus

4. separate 1/4" pedal inputs for switch, damper, and expression pedals

5. left, right 1/4" outputs, with volume control

6. no built-in sounds (the iPad will be used as the tone generator)

7. 9 faders/drawars to control B-3X

8. good quality ruck-sack style gigbag that allows me to ride to brand practise/occasional gigs on my bike

9. some assignable buttons/knobs to control the iPad, if necessary

 

So, basically, I'm looking for a sound-less Nord Electro with MIDI and audio over USB, and better MIDI functionality.

 

anotherscott previously mentioned the Numa Compact 2EX, which could be a contender, however I don't need 88-keys.

The RD-88 also ticks a lot of boxes, but I prefer a semi-weighted action (for organ) and again, I don't need 88-keys.

The YC-61 could be an option too, but it's more expensive than I'd like to pay, not enough keys, and I don't need build-in sounds.

 

Any thoughts?

Am I seeking a board that doesn't exist yet?

MIDI *and* audio over USB is not so common, much less a soundless board with 1/4" outputs.

 

Cheers,

James

x

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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So, basically, I'm looking for a sound-less Nord Electro with MIDI and audio over USB, and better MIDI functionality.

The Electro does have poor MIDI functionality if you want to combine internal and external sounds, but if you will be using external sounds exclusively, I think it will do everything you want, MIDI-wise. So I think what you're missing is audio ove USB, and as you kiinda said, I don't think you'll find that in any soundless controller, as they generally aren't designed to handle audio at all, I'm not sure there are any exceptions to that. So your audio would have to be from an interface plugged into your iPad.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Here's my solution, not pretty, but functional for my needs.

 

As Another Scott stated the NE4 isn't great for a master controller. I took his suggestions and tried getting KeyStage to do what I wanted, but after a weekend of frustration, I gave up. Since I'm just requiring B3X out of the iPad I've resigned myself to adding another tier to my stand and using a controller keyboard dedicated just to B3X, and using the NE4 for everything else. Here's what I've got:

 

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL96/792815/4063775/414373925.jpg

 

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL96/792815/4063775/414373926.jpg

 

Basically the NE4 stays pretty much as is, and the Graphite and my Midi Expressions pedal interface run into a powered USB hub (seen on the left edge of the Nord) and pass through the Camera Connector into the iPad, then the output goes into my Key Largo, along with the NE4 and my bass guitar. I've got two Yamaha FC-7's for expression and volume, but I'm going to try a Hosa splitter (1 TRS split into 2 TRS, 5' long) to cut down to 1 pedal.

 

The Graphite gives me the control surfaces I need, and I can still use the NE4 organ split for bass if I need it.

 

Like I said, not pretty, but it does function as I want, and now I do have a backup in case either board goes down on a gig.

1967 B-3 w/(2) 122's, Nord C1w/Leslie 2101 top, Nord PedalKeys 27, Nord Electro 4D, IK B3X, QSC K12.2, Yamaha reface YC+CS+CP

 

"It needs a Hammond"

 

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Thanks guys!

 

Thanks for the rig explanation lightbg - it looks good!

 

I ought to point out that in addition to B-3X, I also intend to use Neo Soul Studio 2 for EPs, and will need to find a nice, woody upright piano sound similar to the Nord's "Black Upright", so it's not just for organ. I also prefer to stick with a single board, if possible.

 

Cheers,

James

x

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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Could you live with something with built-in sounds? The Studiologic NC2X springs to mind but that's an 88 not a 76. Light and compact though and will do the simultaneous Audio+MIDI-over-USB thing. (When that board was launched I remember posting that it really wants to be in a 76 form factor).

 

Cheers, Mike.

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Hello Mike,

 

Sure, I can live with something that features built-in sounds, but it's unlikely that I would ever use them, if I decide to commit fully to the iPad.

I guess built-in sounds might be useful, just as a backup...but it's money spent on hardware that I would never use.

 

I emailed Studiologic to enquire into the possibility of a 73-key version of the NC2X, but I expect the chances of that happening at this stage are pretty log.

 

Cheers,

James

x

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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If price is an issue, the Graphite 49 is very hard to beat. It does a whole lot and is amazingly affordable for what you get.

 

As far as a 76 note board is concerned, have you considered looking around for used synths from the 90s that you can repurpose? Say, the Yamaha SY99, the Roland U-50, or the Alesis QS7.1?

 

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

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Hello Dr Mike,

 

If price is an issue, the Graphite 49 is very hard to beat. It does a whole lot and is amazingly affordable for what you get.

 

I'm sure it's a great board for the money, but it doesn't have enough keys and seems to lack the USB audio connective that I'm looking for.

 

As far as a 76 note board is concerned, have you considered looking around for used synths from the 90s that you can repurpose? Say, the Yamaha SY99, the Roland U-50, or the Alesis QS7.1?

 

Nope, I would prefer to stick with something modern, again for the USB audio functionality.

 

Cheers,

James

x

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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Hello James,

 

I think we have the same thoughts.....

I also want to use just an iPad with B3X, Neo Soul and Korg Module

with a Midi Board.

 

I searched the net up and down and didn't find

a board that fits "our" needs....

 

The YC61 could fit the bill with the build in USB Midi/Audio

but overkill for a Midiboard.

 

So I decided to get a Roland A800 and a Korg Plugkey

and will use this for sessions when the "big ones" (X4 and/or CP88)

will stay at home.

 

It seems there is a niche for such a board....

 

Cheers

Markus

 

Studio: Hammond XK5-XLK5,  Roland Fantom 8, Kurzweil PC3A6, Prophet 5, Moog Sub37, Neo Vent, HX3-Expander, LB Organ Grinder

Live: Yamaha CP88, Yamaha Motif Rack ES, Hammond SKX Pro, Hammond XB2-HX3,  Kurzweil PC3-61, Leslie 251, Roland SA1000, Neo Vent2

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We've been talking about this for years. It always comes down to the 76 key thing. Plenty of great controllers that are 61 key.

 

I've been considering the exact same kind of rig you're asking about for the exact same reasons. I've narrowed it down to two possibilities and they both have sounds, the Vox Continental 73 or the Numa Organ 2. Both are around $1,000, the Vox has to be shipped from Europe through Thomann to get that price and the Numa Organ 2 is now selling for $1,100 new. Of course both are organs already but they both are good controllers too. For the Numa if you're using it's own organ it's only 61 keys with the black keys as presets but as a controller all 73 keys are available. One problem though, it only transmits on 3 midi channels but it has nice physical drawbars that trransmit midi CC's. for what I do I probably can do fine with just three midi channels, but YMMV.

 

I checked the Vox manual and yes all the controllers including the drawbar led touch strips are transmitted so it would be a good controller candidate too. The big difference with the Vox is the LED touch strips for drawbars BUT it transmits on 16 midi channels. I think I could live with the touch strips. I'm sort of leaning towards the Vox and see how well I like it's CX-3 organ. I'm sure it's not as good as the BX-3 iPad one but that option is still there if I wanted to do that. Just my opinion listening to YT vid demos, I think the pianos, EP's, strings and synths sound really good. So to me that's a point in the Vox's favor. Even if I decided to go for the BX-3 I don't think I would need any IOS apps for those sounds.

 

Neither has USB audio but both have 5 pin DIN midi plus USB midi but they are both modern lightweight keyboards.

 

Seriously I've been looking at all the different possibilities since New Years and there's lots of 61 key options with or without sounds but to get that extra octave WITH all the controllers for organ? Nada, zero, zilch. The one that really frustrates me is the Roland FA 07. Great controller/DAW functions, lightweight, has USB audio but no drawbars or sliders. Aarrgh. I already have a PC3 76, great controller, has 9 sliders and assignable buttons, weak organ with decent other sounds BUT it's big, awkward and weighs 40 pounds.

 

Bob

Hammond SK1, Mojo 61, Kurzweil PC3, Korg Pa3x, Roland FA06, Band in a Box, Real Band, Studio One, too much stuff...
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Kawai James-- here's another solution that won't solve your problem (no audio over USB). On the XB-3 thread, I posted that my Motif XF could not control the iPAD (with an ikMultimedia MIDI 2) because it was doing weird things with MIDI active sensing.

 

I have an old EMU Xboard 49. Pretty decent action, plus aftertouch and sixteen assignable MIDI knobs. Sustain pedal output, but no expression pedal output. I tore into it, and removed one of the 16 pots. I wired a 1/4" Stereo output jack to the circuit board (replacing the pot). Hooked up my Roland EV-5 pedal, and voila! I have functioning expression foot pedal. The pots control the drawbars (not as nice as sliders).

 

Biggest drawback is that it is only 49 keys. I am thinking of locating an Xboard 61, and doing a similar mod. I then would have a two octave controller for the iPad.

Yamaha Motif XF6, Yamaha AN200, Logic Pro X,  Arturia Microbrute, Behringer Model D, Yamaha UX-3 Acoustic Piano, assorted homemade synth modules

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Bob, thank you for sharing your thoughts!

 

As you say, lots of good options for 61-keys, but not so many for 73-keys, and even less among the controllers.

I believe Kawai R&D have a Numa Compact 2 somewhere, so I'll see if I can borrow it for a little while and see how things work out.

 

The Vox is interesting, but I'm really keen on the USB audio idea, and relying solely on the iPad for sounds. Maybe I'm asking for trouble? ;)

 

The FA07 is decent, no doubt about it...but no immediate access to drawbars might be tough. I rely quite a lot on pre-programmed drawbar registrations, but it's nice to have the option of adjusting during a song for variety.

 

I recently watched a video of B-3X from Katsunori Ujie and was really bowled-over by the tweakability of the Leslie sim...incredible sound too!

 

I guess the ideal controller that we're looking for simply hasn't been made yet. However, I cannot help thinking that with the rise in popularity of iPad-based VIs, it won't be long before someone releases it.

 

Cheers,

James

x

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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piano39, thanks for the suggestion!

 

The EMU Xboard 49 looks good too, but again, not enough keys for a single board rig.

 

Cool mod to get expression functionality...nice job!

 

Cheers,

James

x

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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Bob, thank you for sharing your thoughts!

 

As you say, lots of good options for 61-keys, but not so many for 73-keys, and even less among the controllers.

I believe Kawai R&D have a Numa Compact 2 somewhere, so I'll see if I can borrow it for a little while and see how things work out.

 

The Vox is interesting, but I'm really keen on the USB audio idea, and relying solely on the iPad for sounds. Maybe I'm asking for trouble? ;)

 

The FA07 is decent, no doubt about it...but no immediate access to drawbars might be tough. I rely quite a lot on pre-programmed drawbar registrations, but it's nice to have the option of adjusting during a song for variety.

 

I recently watched a video of B-3X from Katsunori Ujie and was really bowled-over by the tweakability of the Leslie sim...incredible sound too!

 

I guess the ideal controller that we're looking for simply hasn't been made yet. However, I cannot help thinking that with the rise in popularity of iPad-based VIs, it won't be long before someone releases it.

 

Cheers,

James

x

 

Is having physical controllers a must or would you be able to adapt to using the iPad's touch screen to adjust the drawbars in real time? I think (but am not sure) it has that feature built into the software.

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Yes, it can do that. It was shown in JIm's video. James if you don't mind working with presets and can still do some changes on the iPad screen then I think the FA 07 could be your best bet even though it has a ton of sounds of it's own that you may never use. There's good deals around for that unit on the used market. For me, I'm a long time B3 player, I toured with one for 25 years so I need those physical drawbars.

 

Bob

Hammond SK1, Mojo 61, Kurzweil PC3, Korg Pa3x, Roland FA06, Band in a Box, Real Band, Studio One, too much stuff...
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Hello Mike,

 

Sure, I can live with something that features built-in sounds, but it's unlikely that I would ever use them, if I decide to commit fully to the iPad.

I guess built-in sounds might be useful, just as a backup...but it's money spent on hardware that I would never use.

 

I emailed Studiologic to enquire into the possibility of a 73-key version of the NC2X, but I expect the chances of that happening at this stage are pretty log.

 

Cheers,

James

x

This was the thing for me: even though I have the 12.9 iPad Pro I decided against using it for piano/EP because I'm playing them all the time and it would use up too much resources and not allow me to also have a synth app, a Korg rompler app, AUM, Gallileo, and maybe Cubasis or another sequencer to all be running and available and still function smoothly. So my idea was to take that load off with a Numa Compact 2x and use it's Pianos/EPs. The only problem was I didn't particularly care for their pianos/EPs, but that's purely subjective. And Studiologic continues to support it with new downloadable sounds.

 

If you are determined to go all-iPad, I believe you could turn Local Off on the Numa and use KeyStage or similar to create as many splits and layers as you want. 88 keys comes in handy for that. And the soft case that's available for it has handles, or an included shoulder strap, OR the built-in backpack staps, which I used once and loved. Really distributed the weight well, even though it's only 15.9lbs.

The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers

 

People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin

 

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Thanks Synthaholic,

 

I've gotten by without splits (except upper/lower manual for organ) on my NE3 for years, so I probably would not need to use splits for the kind of music I'm playing. I would need sounds to change quickly (e.g. piano --> EP --> organ), within a second or so for medleys, so would presumably need to have all the sounds pre-loaded, but doubt I'd need more than one at a time...if that makes sense.

 

Cheers,

James

x

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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I have sometimes wished my Nord Stage 2 had 4 or 5 'external' sections and no internal sections. Nord is missing a trick by not making a MIDI controller board.

Yeah, the idea of a controller with lots of logically grouped and labeled dedicated knobs instead of only a battery of generic controls is appealing, and is why I've said the Nord Stage models could make for an above average (albeit pricey) controller. One thing that's unnecessarily limiting about Nord's current approach is that the front panel controls cannot be enabled for the EXT sections. That's not really an issue if you're using it *only* as a controller, but if you actually do want to integrate its internal and external sounds, you may quickly hit a brick wall. There should be options to, for example, enable drawbar controls on EXT1, enable synth controls on EXT2, that kind of thing.

 

Right now, the closest thing to a Nord-like controller that isn't limited to two external zones is probably the new Fantoms.

 

One wish I have is that VSTs start enabling 2-way communication with the controllers. As far as I know, there are no organ VSTs that send drawbar settings OUT to the controller. I want to be able to call up a preset in VB3, Blue 3, whatever, and if I'm using a controller with moving faders/drawbars or LED indicators, have those things snap into place. AFAIK, nobody does that, though I haven't checked B-3X. It would be great to call up your organ sound on your laptop (or iPad) and have your sliders/LED on your LED-equipped Nord or Dexibell J7 or Yamaha YC61 or Behringer Motor61/BCF or Kurzweil Forte or Vox Continental all immediately show their correct locations. Similarly, I'd like synth VSTs send MIDI back Out to controllers that could reflect those settings with their LED encoder rings, etc.. I thought Omnisphere might do that since they tout their hardware integration with so many boards, but... nope.

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Yes, I'm pretty sure adjusting the drawbars in the app (from the touchscreen) is possible, but I think I'd prefer physical controls.

FA-07 does have 6 assignable knobs that you could use to control drawbar settings. I know, not the same as 9 physical drawbars, but at least there is some possibility for real-time control.

 

- Jimbo

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We've been talking about this for years. It always comes down to the 76 key thing. Plenty of great controllers that are 61 key.

 

I've been considering the exact same kind of rig you're asking about for the exact same reasons. I've narrowed it down to two possibilities and they both have sounds, the Vox Continental 73 or the Numa Organ 2. Both are around $1,000, the Vox has to be shipped from Europe through Thomann to get that price and the Numa Organ 2 is now selling for $1,100 new. Of course both are organs already but they both are good controllers too. For the Numa if you're using it's own organ it's only 61 keys with the black keys as presets but as a controller all 73 keys are available. One problem though, it only transmits on 3 midi channels but it has nice physical drawbars that trransmit midi CC's. for what I do I probably can do fine with just three midi channels, but YMMV.

...

Bob

 

I think serious (i.e. expensive, high-quality actions, stage-ready, and durable) controllers are on the cusp of a breakthrough with MIDI 2.0. I'm hoping that the manufacturers, aware that MIDI 2.0 was really coming, have held off updating their controllers knowing that it would be worth it. Roland has its first MIDI 2.0 controller out, the A88MkII. Who will come out with a semi-weighted waterfall keyboard (hopefully 73-76 keys) with drawbars, lots of endless encoders, a good selection of logically grouped buttons, and good displays? Having a controller with logical hardware and controllers to be a tone wheel organ, an electric piano, an acoustic piano, and a basic synth, and having a MIDI 2.0 profile exchanged between the controller and your software, really does seem like something possible this year or next instead of being always a far-off pipe dream.

 

Personally, I'm curious to see what Studiologic will put out next. They don't have as much invested in on-board sounds that they'll drag their feet. They've also been working a lot with MIDI and DAWs with Camelot. Since you're (Kawai James) asking, I'm assuming Kawai is staying out of the space. Native Instruments will be interesting-- NKS is semi-established, they could either fight MIDI 2.0 or set the new standard for interoperability. Will Arturia/Novation/Nektar/Akai/M-Audio try to fill this space? I think they will try, but Roland could keep them in the plastic/less expensive part of the market if they come out with a new A-800Pro Mk II, as could Yamaha or Korg if they make a statement product in the category. I think Roland will show what it can do with MIDI 2.0 in an update to the RD-2000, but don't know if they will commit to a serious controller. I'm really curious to see if Crumar wants to be in this space, also. Musikmesse should be interesting.

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It would be great to call up your organ sound on your laptop (or iPad) and have your sliders/LED on your LED-equipped Nord or Dexibell J7 or Yamaha YC61 or Behringer Motor61/BCF or Kurzweil Forte or Vox Continental all immediately show their correct locations.

 

That would be amazing! Particularly for motorized faders. You could make presets out of some buttons, and visually look at your drawbars / faders to quickly see what you dialed up.

 

Will MIDI 2.0 address any of these tricks with virtual instruments?

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tfort, I agree...it seems we're just on the cusp of something interesting happening - maybe not a "game changer", but close enough to make a difference to the controller market.

 

Since you're (Kawai James) asking, I'm assuming Kawai is staying out of the space.

 

Kawai's focus is specifically on pianos, therefore 88-keys and realistic, weighted actions (e.g. VPC1).

 

Cheers,

James

x

Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

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