ABCharlie Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Hi All, Long time reader, not very frequent poster here. I recently started playing in one of local churches and I struggle to make my pianos sound right. I used to play with a band in some cafes, bars and pubs in the past and never had such issues since I used Electric Pianos and synths mostly. Soundsystem in church is 4x Bose Panaray MA12 (2x each side, placed vertical). My piano+ vocals are connected to it by Yamaha MG20 mixer. I use Roland FP10 as a MIDI controller, Ravenscroft 275 and Pianoteq 6 for APs, connected to mixer in stereo. The issue is, it sounds terribly muddy, drawn in some kind of strange reverb, boxy, unclear. I zeroed reverb on my pianos but it made no difference. I suspect it's caused by phasing issues of stereo samples in such environment (I've been intensively reading internet forums for the last week regarding this issue). I had no chance to test it yet, but I assume: Should I play my VSTs in mono?Should I narrow Ravenscroft stereo width to 1% and use Side mics (I've read somewhere, that Side perspective in VI Labs pianos are best suited for mono)? Last 2 times I was trying to use Close mics in 100% stereo width.For Pianoteq, should I choose "Monophonic" output? When I do all of above, should I still use stereo connection to mixer? I think it doesn't make sense, when I'm using mono samples. The other option might be that those Bose speakers are not appropriate for music playing (I've checked specs and it doesn't look promising for music). Do you think the best option would be to carry my own PA? When I played on my FP10 internal speakers (max volume) in empty church, although it was not very loud, not loud enough for sure when the church is full, the sound was much clearer than my VST setup connected to church soundsystem. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions. Thanks in advance. Quote Ars non habet osorem nisi ignorantem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Before we go down the long debated stereo vs mono thing... Is someone running the mixer front of house? Do they understand how to EQ the pianos? I run my rig, including Pianoteq and Keyscape in stereo and don't have a problem. Can you dial back the low end in the VST and boost the high-mids and highs before you send it to FOH. Also, are your signals being panned properly at the Mixer desk? Quote David Gig Rig:Depends on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABCharlie Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 There is a guy who tries to operate the mixer, but his knowledge is based on what some other guy told him in the past ("press this button, turn that knob right, don't touch other things"). So basically he has no idea. And I don't blame him, he's a volunteer and tries his best. I fiddled with mixer last time and at least was able to make vocals EQ and levels acceptable. For piano, I first connected L and R to 2 separate channels next to each other, panned one of them hard left, second hard right, set EQ to neutral levels but it did not help a lot. Then I switched for stereo input (also with 2 separate TRS connectors) but within one channel and there is no pan knob there. Result was the same, terrible.. Quote Ars non habet osorem nisi ignorantem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Here we go... well it's not really the same old mono vs stereo thing. It sounds like the OP is complaining of bad STEREO sound! I looked at Bose's web page for those speakers, it says "Designed to provide outstanding vocal intelligibility in acoustically demanding spaces," uh oh, red flag right there. "Designed for vocal intelligibility" to me says... sounds bad for music! Also, are you sure the four speakers are set up to provide a true stereo spread â each side is producing ONLY the left or right? If I was a church sound person and the system was used primarily for voice, it really wouldn't matter. Hell, the entire system might be mono, or as David says, the inputs are not panned correctly. I will say, however, that the description of the sound is a textbook case of stereo samples summed to mono ("strange reverb, boxy, unclear"). The other possibility is that while the piano is being reproduced in stereo, you may be so far from one of the two sets of speakers that you hear only one side. Those speakers claim very wide horizontal coverage however. Still, if you're much farther from one set than the other there will probably be time delay issues that screw with phase. In cases like this it might be better to find a good mono piano sound (though that in itself won't solve time delay issues caused by uneven distances to speakers). As for bringing your own PA, that would probably solve the issue for you but unless you had the speakers in front of you pointing back (i.e., used as monitors only), I suspect the church sound person would not be very happy! And your back might not be too happy either. Only you can decide if it's worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Cross posted, I see. You answered a few of my Qs. So, a speaker system designed for vocals, and a volunteer sound person who probably knows nothing about sound. Not a good combination! I think the question now is how much trouble is it worth to you to be happy with your sound on this gig â because it looks like bringing your own small PA is probably the only way it's going to sound good to you. Why not use some good in-ears coming off the headphone jack of your mixer, and leave the house sound to a higher power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoMan51 Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Here"s what I would do. Make a very simple stereo recording of your piano, sounding just like you want, and loop it. Play this from the computer you"re using for your VST. And then go to the FOH mixer and figure out what"s what, using your piano sound as the test signal. Are both your L and R signals received and mixed properly? Is the system stereo, and are your L and R channels panned correctly? Keep going. Treat the FOH as unknown and unreliable until you have verified it. Only after you know what"s what should you hobble your piano sound as a possible solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABCharlie Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 Singers, piano and guitar player, as well as the mixer, we are all located on the left side of altar, around 1.5m away from those Bose speakers. We're quite far away from the other side. So next time I'm there I will check if the setup is actually stereo (we have separate L/R inputs in the wall where we connect mixer, but as you suggested it doesnt mean anything). There is no one else to take care of that so I have to learn. When the mixer-guy realized I know what are "those buttons" he's pressing for (HPF, EQ knobs, Comp), he instantly wanted to give me control over mixer. I've played a lot with settings and was able to make vocals and guitar sound right (quite a few 'trips' to the center of church for soundcheck ). Unfortunately, I failed with piano. What's intetesting, Pianoteq Rhodes sounded OK-ish, not even one third as muddied as AP, and it was stereo sample by default. I don't care if 'I' will experience bad sound, so I do not need additional monitoring. I just really want for people in house to have great and inspiring musical experience. In case the church soundsystem is 'guilty' here, what would be your recommendation for portable, good quality stereo PA? I might use it for small vocal+piano gigs in the near future. I've read somewhere about sth called SSV3, or svs3, I don't remember exact name. Quote Ars non habet osorem nisi ignorantem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabo Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 Another thing you can try -- get a good solo piano recording on your phone, plug it directly into the board (stereo - panned left and right) and see if you can make that sound good. That should tell you if the speakers are salvageable. Quote Yamaha Montage M6, Nord Stage 4 - 88, Hammond SK-Pro 73, Yamaha YC-73, Mainstage, Yamaha U1 Upright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doerfler Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Before we go down the long debated stereo vs mono thing... too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABCharlie Posted January 29, 2020 Author Share Posted January 29, 2020 Before we go down the long debated stereo vs mono thing... too late. I had no idea it is some kind of sensitive topic here I'm waiting for Friday's rehearsal to check things you guys suggested. In the meantime I started looking for portable PA stereo systems. The one I mentioned in my previous post is called Spacestation V3 Is it worth the money, or for ~900EUR I can get something better? Quote Ars non habet osorem nisi ignorantem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Have you turned all reverb off in Pianoteq? Ravenscroft may have some reverb baked into the samples but turn any reverb adjustment back to zero also. You want a completely dry sound playing in what is effectively an echo chamber. Quote A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowtraveler Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 I started looking for portable PA stereo systems. The one I mentioned in my previous post is called Spacestation V3 Is it worth the money, or for ~900EUR I can get something better? The SpaceStation has been discussed at length on the forum. (A Google search qualified with "site:musicplayer.com" is your friend.) Here's a link to the mother of all SpaceStation threads: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2602284 It may not be the best choice for reproducing acoustic piano sounds. Nice sig, by the way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doerfler Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 I had no idea it is some kind of sensitive topic here of course you didn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Before we go down the long debated stereo vs mono thing... too late. Yep! Quote David Gig Rig:Depends on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonizer Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Has anyone done a test with either the Left or Right channel turned off, and the keyboard making sound by itself, to see if the result sounds good? I am asking this because it is possible that whatever is causing the bad piano sound is independent of whether you are sending in mono or stereo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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