Music Player Network
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana #3025271 01/23/20 09:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,761
16251 Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,761
I asked these questions at Piano World in their RD88 thread but no one seems to be up to the challenge on answering. Maybe someone here can.

Has Roland decided to go to more modeling and less sample-based cause they see this technology has more upside or do you think modeling saves them money thus increasing their bottom line?

I remember how excited I was to have an FP4 cause each note of acoustic piano was sampled. I really enjoyed that piano. Then each newer version, they began to be less real sounding on videos and audios I listened to. Is the newer tech more appreciated by the player, as some rave at Pianoteq, Physis and V-Piano cause the sound of each note interacts with each other?


AG N2 | ES 110 | REFACE CP | GK MK & MP amps
KC Island
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025278 01/23/20 11:28 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 969
marczellm Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 969
I guess they really went all in on modeling with the V-Piano and now they try to sell that technology in as many forms as possible so that it pays off. Because, who has ever bought a V-Piano?


Life is subtractive.
Current: Jazz, funk, rock, pop, Christian worship, BebHop
Wishlist: 80s-ish (synth)pop, symphonic pop, prog rock, fusion, musical theatre
Gear: NS2 + JUNO-G

Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025335 01/23/20 05:16 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,636
Jazz+ Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 6,636
I had an FP4 and it was very nice in terms of piano sound and action; the FP models that came after it turned me off due to the new sound and new sluggish actions. More than anything is the newer actions fatigue me.


Jazz Pianist | 1966 Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano | Kawai ES110 | Mojo 61
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025340 01/23/20 05:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
AnotherScott Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
Originally Posted by 16251
I asked these questions at Piano World in their RD88 thread but no one seems to be up to the challenge on answering. Maybe someone here can.

Has Roland decided to go to more modeling and less sample-based cause they see this technology has more upside or do you think modeling saves them money thus increasing their bottom line?

I think no one outside of Roland can answer a question as to why they did something, or how it affected their bottom line.
Originally Posted by 16251
Is the newer tech more appreciated by the player, as some rave at Pianoteq, Physis and V-Piano

I think that's a significant part of it. People are mixed about whether the modeled pianos sound as good (or better) compared to sampled pianos, but there seems to be near unanimous consent that they play very well, and so the appreciation from the player's perspective may differ from the appreciation from the listener's perspective. The way tone varies very smoothly from ppp to fff and the way those changes respond to your fingers is part of what modeling may get you.
Roland really was the pioneer in this approach, with the original MKS-20.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: AnotherScott] #3025365 01/23/20 08:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 665
samuelblupowitz Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by 16251
Is the newer tech more appreciated by the player, as some rave at Pianoteq, Physis and V-Piano

I think that's a significant part of it. People are mixed about whether the modeled pianos sound as good (or better) compared to sampled pianos, but there seems to be near unanimous consent that they play very well, and so the appreciation from the player's perspective may differ from the appreciation from the listener's perspective. The way tone varies very smoothly from ppp to fff and the way those changes respond to your fingers is part of what modeling may get you.
Roland really was the pioneer in this approach, with the original MKS-20.
For my own gigging experience, I know I've started to feel like the audience tends to not care about (or notice) the specific sonic quality of my patches -- they can't tell the difference between my real Wurlitzer and my Nord, or the different organ clones I've used over the years, or anything like that. So the gear isn't for them, it's for me, and my physical connection to the sound being produced matters a lot more to my enjoyment than the specific authenticity of the sample or model. The more "playable" and expressive the sounds are, the more fun I have, the better show the audience gets. That's why I've been using Pianoteq rather than my Privia's onboard piano samples, even though I'm sure no one except for my wife (who is also a musician) notices the difference from the back of a crowded bar.

That's also why I gig a Wurlitzer, and go to a chiropractor. roll


Samuel B. Lupowitz
Composer. Arranger. Musician. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: AnotherScott] #3025366 01/23/20 08:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,761
16251 Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,761
Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Roland really was the pioneer in this approach, with the original MKS-20.


I had one when they first came out. Before the MKS-20 came out, the DX7 was out. I had made the transition from carrying around a Fender Rhodes to the DX7. I had enough of schlepping the Rhodes. When the MKS-20 came out I was ecstatic and bought one. I had an Invisible stand with the added shelf and was using DX7 to trigger Roland and had Roland D-50 on top. The MKS-20 was great in its time. (I eventually got bug for a weighted action and got a Korg SG-ID. I decided to schlep again, and sold MKS-20. Ever since then, I've always looked around the corner for the next best sounded and lightest piano I could find.)

Last edited by 16251; 01/23/20 09:52 PM.

AG N2 | ES 110 | REFACE CP | GK MK & MP amps
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025372 01/23/20 08:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,464
R
Reezekeys Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
R
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,464
I too used an MKS20 played from a DX7. My DX7 had the E! mod that fixed the issue with velocity values topping out at 100. If your DX didn't have that, you were missing the top end of the dynamics on the MKS.

The MKS20 was great for its time but today sounds pretty dated. **IMO** :-)

Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025383 01/23/20 09:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,456
S
Stokely Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
S
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,456
Man I struggled getting a piano sound I liked back in the late 80s with an MKS20. It's pretty astounding that it could do that well, but when you are chasing recorded, miked piano sound...no, IMO. But you make do with what you have. I probably liked it better than the Korg M1 piano sound that was blowing everyone away in that time period...

I have problems playing any of the Roland weighted actions. That's probably more on me than anything, as I grew up with a lightweight spinet and really have rarely played a real piano with any weight in the action to it. Their higher-end options seem much better than the cheaper ones in this regard (something not unique to Roland). I was really excited by the RD 64 for live use for example, but it was like playing in mud.

Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025389 01/23/20 09:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,575
Delaware Dave Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,575
I still think that the V-Piano is one of the best sounding pianos that I have heard (the GEM ProMega 3 being next). It sounds very realistic to me. Of course the V-Piano pricing was out of line. That was a decade ago and I'm assuming not many have been sold. There is no reason at this point for them not to put that technology into an affordably priced keyboard and at least try to recoup that 10 year old investment. Listen to this video, sounds pretty impressive to me.

link


57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; http://www.dyinbreedband.com www.facebook.com/acoustaxx/
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: Delaware Dave] #3025394 01/23/20 09:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,761
16251 Offline OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,761
Originally Posted by Delaware Dave
I still think that the V-Piano is one of the best sounding pianos that I have heard (the GEM ProMega 3 being next). It sounds very realistic to me. Of course the V-Piano pricing was out of line. That was a decade ago and I'm assuming not many have been sold. There is no reason at this point for them not to put that technology into an affordably priced keyboard and at least try to recoup that 10 year old investment. Listen to this video, sounds pretty impressive to me.

link


I remember watching that video. V piano sounds very good except for single note playing in either hand. When there are chords and octaves it really shines.

Last edited by 16251; 01/23/20 09:57 PM.

AG N2 | ES 110 | REFACE CP | GK MK & MP amps
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: Delaware Dave] #3025424 01/24/20 12:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
AnotherScott Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
Originally Posted by Delaware Dave
I There is no reason at this point for them not to put that technology into an affordably priced keyboard

It's getting there, it's in the RD-2000 (and the new Fantom).


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025427 01/24/20 12:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,093
Adan Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,093
I think Roland has said the V-Piano in the Fantom is improved from what is in prior keyboards like the RD2000 and FP90. I haven't played the two side by side, so my impression is dodgy, but I know the Fantom pianos sound really good and musical to my ears, whereas previous encounters with the V-Piano have always left me cold. The Fantom seems noticeably warmer and woodier.


Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Roland VR09, Yamaha P121
Traveling: Yamaha MX49, Reface CP and CS
Home: Vintage Vibe 64
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025437 01/24/20 01:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,670
ElmerJFudd Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,670


As different sounding as two different acoustic pianos.


Live: Casio PX-560, Roland VR-700
Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k, Yamaha S90ES
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025451 01/24/20 03:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
AnotherScott Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
There's a basic problem in that he's assuming that the first piano sound in the Nord is what they consider best or most universal or whatever... Nord has numerous equal quality but different sounding samples, people disagree about which is best, and the only reason the one that's first is placed first is, well, something has to be first. Personally I don't think Royal Grand 3D shows it at its best... in fact, in my own Nord, that's not even one of the five grand pianos I chose to keep in the board.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025456 01/24/20 03:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 991
Throbert Offline
Gold Member
Offline
Gold Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 991
At any rate the Roland sounds over driven compared to the Clavia at first, then
sounds like what ever the drive was coming from was pulled back a bit but I think
the Clavia still came out on top. the Roland seems to bleed to much resonance.


Triton Extreme 76, Kawai ES3, GEM-RPX, HX3/Drawbar control, MSI Z97
MPower/4790K, Lynx Aurora 8/MADI/AES16e, OP-X PRO, Ptec, Komplete.
Ashley MX-206. future MOTU M64 RME Digiface Dante for Mon./net
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025457 01/24/20 03:51 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,670
ElmerJFudd Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,670
No argument there. Just commenting on how different these two examples sound.
And that has a lot of factors... source instruments, sampling vs. modeling, the developer’s choices regarding what sounds good to them, how the velocity curve from the the action translates into changes in timbre, sample rate of the engine, DA conversion... they can work on digital pianos endlessly.


Live: Casio PX-560, Roland VR-700
Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k, Yamaha S90ES
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: AnotherScott] #3025463 01/24/20 05:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,370
Dave Ferris Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,370
Originally Posted by AnotherScott
There's a basic problem in that he's assuming that the first piano sound in the Nord is what they consider best or most universal or whatever... Nord has numerous equal quality but different sounding samples, people disagree about which is best, and the only reason the one that's first is placed first is, well, something has to be first. Personally I don't think Royal Grand 3D shows it at its best... in fact, in my own Nord, that's not even one of the five grand pianos I chose to keep in the board.


For the way he's playing here - pop/rock triads - I don't think the Royal Grand is the strongest piano for that either. Maybe the White grand, or even the older Bright Grand (Yamaha ?) I sold my NP2 before the White grand came out but that Bright Yamaha always worked the best for triads and rock.

The Royal Grand sounds best in a Jazz context imo.

The RD-2000 sounds good like always (although the Nord still sounds more alive here) - recorded line in, or in phones. Put it in a group live or through speakers- everything changes...for the worse.

Last edited by Dave Ferris; 01/24/20 05:04 AM.
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025677 01/25/20 01:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,100
L
LX88 Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
L
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,100
I checked out some of the discussion of the RD88 on the Piano World Forum.

Some are suggesting that the sample may be similar to the FP 30, as well as the PHA 4 action.

Also interesting is that some people who posted above have referred to having liked the FP4. I actually have never played one, but I still have my RD300GX, which I still enjoy. To me the 300GX was always preferable to any Yamaha until the CP5 and later the CP4, which changed up the basic Yamaha sample. The FP4/ 300GX and 700GX always seemed to have a smoother attack on the mid range tones instead of that plunky thing common to older Yamaha and still common to Casios.

To me the FP30 is pretty interesting after you adjust the touch setting. If the FP 30 had a decent Rhodes I might have kept it ( I had one for awhile on a GC 30 day trial) . I A/B ed the FP30 versus the RD2000,and the FP 30 ( to me) held up very well The action of the FP 30 seemed a bit heavy, another reason that I wound up returning it

Anyway some people on Piano World are suggesting that the RD88 is a re packaging of the Super Natural sample that has been circulating for some time among various Roland models.

Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025680 01/25/20 01:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,174
Legatoboy Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,174
For me Roland DP's started becoming troublesome sonically when they went to their SRX standard. I think Supernatural is an offshoot from that possibly.
The last Roland DP's sound/play-ability that I thought was more natural and manageable EQ wise and response wise live and sonically, at least for me, was in my old RD-600..

I remember being in Sam Ash here in Huntington, LI NY when they went to SRX and a salesman played a new Roland piano sound for me demoing the axes...how many years ago was that?! A while now..
While he played it he looked at me, like someone had pulled the floor out from under him and the sound...it had become so 'thin' compared to the older Roland AP DP sound... clarity was better, details, oh yes..
but less horsepower or substance,...like a lot of tasty icing, but they had cut down on the cake inside the cake somehow...we both looked at each other like 'what?!'

To this day that stayed with me, .. and EQ ing it just never ever seemed to solve any of the problems I was having getting a good stage sound live, at least for me it was like chasing the bird. I gave up on Rolands as a DP source eventually. I did like the FP4 as has been mentioned so add that to my RD600 experience, but even those compared to a Yamaha in any given ambiance or space and I'd always seem to at least be able to be somewhat happy with Yammy's DP's, less EQ etc etc..
I do like Roland's synth design, synths sounds, actions as a general rule and interfaces ..but their AP and Hammond emulations - nada for me!

Last edited by Legatoboy; 01/25/20 01:57 PM.

SP6, CP-50, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, XK-3, CX-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025689 01/25/20 03:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
AnotherScott Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
SRX was not any new tech, it just let them use larger sample sets, or put what used to be multiple smaller expansions (JV) in a single expansion. Maybe you're thinking of the ARX that came later, when SuperNATURAL entered the picture. Or you just could have happened to like Roland's older, smaller sample set pianos better, just as some people liked Yamaha's small Power Grand from the original Motif better than the larger "better" pianos that replaced it in the later Motifs.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: Legatoboy] #3025703 01/25/20 04:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 241
T
The Piano Man Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
T
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 241
Originally Posted by Legatoboy
For me Roland DP's started becoming troublesome sonically when they went to their SRX standard. I think Supernatural is an offshoot from that possibly.
The last Roland DP's sound/play-ability that I thought was more natural and manageable EQ wise and response wise live and sonically, at least for me, was in my old RD-600..

I remember being in Sam Ash here in Huntington, LI NY when they went to SRX and a salesman played a new Roland piano sound for me demoing the axes...how many years ago was that?! A while now..
While he played it he looked at me, like someone had pulled the floor out from under him and the sound...it had become so 'thin' compared to the older Roland AP DP sound... clarity was better, details, oh yes..
but less horsepower or substance,...like a lot of tasty icing, but they had cut down on the cake inside the cake somehow...we both looked at each other like 'what?!'

To this day that stayed with me, .. and EQ ing it just never ever seemed to solve any of the problems I was having getting a good stage sound live, at least for me it was like chasing the bird. I gave up on Rolands as a DP source eventually. I did like the FP4 as has been mentioned so add that to my RD600 experience, but even those compared to a Yamaha in any given ambiance or space and I'd always seem to at least be able to be somewhat happy with Yammy's DP's, less EQ etc etc..
I do like Roland's synth design, synths sounds, actions as a general rule and interfaces ..but their AP and Hammond emulations - nada for me!


This ^^^ Spot on Legatoboy!

I love the power and “richness” of the older Roland sounds. I had an RD150 and an older FP model that had sounds from the RD600, which, I think, had similar tones to the old VE-RD1 expansion available for the A90 controller.

Whilst, as AnotherScott alludes, the SRX did re-purpose older JV tech, my understanding was that the SRX-02 and SRX-11 piano expansions did use newer samples.

In any case, I bought and returned an RD2000 because I hated the newer samples and then realised you can load the old RD600 tones into this model!!


RD2000, S70xs, Nord Stage 2 ex
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: The Piano Man] #3025713 01/25/20 04:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
AnotherScott Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
Originally Posted by The Piano Man
Whilst, as AnotherScott alludes, the SRX did re-purpose older JV tech, my understanding was that the SRX-02 and SRX-11 piano expansions did use newer samples.

Right, those are examples of when they used the SRX capacity for newer, larger sample sets... and there are many examples in keyboards and VSTs where people preferred a given smaller sample set instrument to a larger one. But it was still the same basic technology/approach Roland had been taking, just with higher capacities... as opposed to SuperNatural and V-Piano where they were going about it in a fundamentally different way, that was the distinction I was trying to make. And it's true, "progress" doesn't move in only one direction, and can be subjective. There are plenty of times where I preferred a company's older product to their newer in some respect or another, whether it was in sound, or action, or features, or interface... but that's a whole other thread. ;-)


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: 16251] #3025854 01/26/20 01:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 241
T
The Piano Man Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
T
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 241
Where does Zen Core fit into this? Is it new tech or just a new way of sharing all of Roland’s sounds? In time, will Zen Core replace Axial?

I like the idea of having any Roland sound in any board. That way, perhaps you could have, for example, the old RD600 samples in the new RD88.


RD2000, S70xs, Nord Stage 2 ex
Re: Roland's path to acoustic piano nirvana [Re: The Piano Man] #3025859 01/26/20 02:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
AnotherScott Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
10k Club
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 14,372
Originally Posted by The Piano Man
Where does Zen Core fit into this? Is it new tech or just a new way of sharing all of Roland’s sounds? In time, will Zen Core replace Axial?

Zen Core is a sound engine. I would think of it more as something that replaces SuperNatural Synth rather than Axial (SuperNatural Synth being the synth engine in Integra, Jupiter 50/80, VR09/730, FA). It appears to have all the synth capabilities of SN-Synth and also more, including sample based sounds (there are PCM waves in SN Synth, but not full sampled instrument sounds).

Originally Posted by The Piano Man
I like the idea of having any Roland sound in any board. That way, perhaps you could have, for example, the old RD600 samples in the new RD88.

I don't think Zen Core itself includes any ability to load new samples into a board, but you would be able to share patches (which I guess means these boards all include a common sample set). i.e. AFAIK, unless they built in some easter egg, AX-Edge has no sample loading capability, but it will be able to load Zen Core patches.Regardless, you won't be able to have any Roland sound in any boards, even among these boards that are supported, since not all the sounds in these boards are Zen Core. My understanding is that you will be able to have any (stock sample) Roland Zen Core sound in any other Zen Core board, but even if there happen to be some shared samples, RD600 wasn't Zen Core.


Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our new video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out!

Moderated by  Dave Bryce, Stephen Fortner 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3