Kawai ES110 Digital Piano ?

[Jazz+]

I am asking those of you who have enough experience with the Kawai ES110 digital piano (2017) to comment about how you found it to be for action and piano sound on jazz gigs?

 

I have played the ES110 for all of 20 minutes in a store alongside a Roland FP30 and the Kawai MP7 (too heavy) digital piano. I have also played the Yamaha P125 alongside a Casio PX S1000 at Guitar Center.

 

My important criteria are 2 items:

Weight: Under 28 lbs with onboard speakers. (Casio, Yamaha, Kawai, Roland)

Action: Light, fast, and dynamically responsive.

 

All the models listed above meet the features except for Action: Light, fast, and dynamically responsive. Only the Kawai ES-110 met that requirement for me, "it does not cause fatigue." It's piano sound is not bad, every note is individually sampled which I like. The ES110's other sounds are pretty bad, but they are not on my important criteria list. And I don't need any other functions and are a downgrade from what I am used to . I would be transitioning to the ES110 solely for the action. I need a very light and quick action to avoid fatigue after 15 minutes of solid playing let alone 3 sets or more.

[Jazz+]

 

Kawai ES8 = piano sound in ES110

 

3:45 Yamaha P515

4:45 Kawai ES8

5:48 Roland FP90

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

[ElmerJFudd]

The ES-110 and ES-100 don"t have the same action.

When Kawai revised the ES-110 they improved on the speed.

I found it noticeably better for playing.

 

The lighter build, eh, you always sacrifice something sturdiness wise when shedding weight. The speakers are a bit bright sounding - but they all are in this price range. If you need to beef it up, thankfully it has unbalanced outs.

 

It"s a little more than the P125, FP30, PX-160. It"s debatable of course if the action is better than the others. I like it well enough and would definitely prefer it to an S1000/3000. Any of these with a midi out would be great with a laptop or sound module like the GSi Gemini or Dexibel.

[MPN21]

I am asking those of you who have enough experience with the Kawai ES110 digital piano (2017) to comment about how you found it to be for action and piano sound on jazz gigs?

 

I have played the ES110 for all of 20 minutes in a store alongside a Roland FP30 and the Kawai MP7 (too heavy) digital piano. I have also played the Yamaha P125 alongside a Casio PX S1000 at Guitar Center.

 

My important criteria are 2 items:

Weight: Under 28 lbs with onboard speakers. (Casio, Yamaha, Kawai, Roland)

Action: Light, fast, and dynamically responsive.

 

All the models listed above meet the features except for Action: Light, fast, and dynamically responsive. Only the Kawai ES-110 met that requirement for me, "it does not cause fatigue." It's piano sound is not bad, every note is individually sampled which I like. The ES110's other sounds are pretty bad, but they are not on my important criteria list. And I don't need any other functions and are a downgrade from what I am used to . I would be transitioning to the ES110 solely for the action. I need a very light and quick action to avoid fatigue after 15 minutes of solid playing let alone 3 sets or more.

Are you saying that the PXS1000's action heavier than the ES110?

 

[mynameisdanno]

I used an ES110 as a controller for a Nord Stage 2 Compact for about eight weeks of van-and-trailer touring over about a 15-month span. It's currently in storage on the other end of the country, and I kinda wish I had it back up here in the northwest (but I know Murphy's law dictates that as soon as I ask for it to be shipped back, the artist concerned will book more dates!).

 

Of course actions are subjective, but I found it to be a very pleasant upgrade over the Yamaha P95 I had been using since 2011 for various situations where I needed a compact 88 slab with 5-pin MIDI out. A little lighter touchweight than the Yamaha, but not so much as to require a lot of adapting as I found the various Privia PX's I had tried over the years; I always found those to hit velocity=127 way easier than I wanted regardless of internal velocity curve settings, and there's no way to compensate for that outboard. (I haven't spent much time with the PX-S?000's yet but they do seem nice. I sure wish they had 5-pin MIDI. I may have to start resorting to the Kenton USB MIDI Host or similar units if this trend continues.)

 

Can't speak specifically to jazz, this was sort of a country-Americana situation, but we typically played 90-120 minute shows and I spent most of my time on the Kawai, and never had any hand fatigue issues, and never got that "man this action is a drag" feeling you get sometimes just from the familiarity-breeds-contempt effect.

 

As far as build quality is concerned, due to the dimensions of the trailer and the sheer amount of gear that we had crammed into it floor-to-ceiling (it was seven piece band with upright bass and four multiinstrumentalists), we had no choice but to stow it in the trailer resting upright on one end, which intuitively seems to me like a rotten thing to subject a keyboard action to. However, it bounced its way around to every corner of the lower 48 with not one issue and no degradation in the feel or repsonsiveness of the action that I ever noticed. So I'd say put your mind at ease about that part. I wish the power supply DC cord was a little more robust, but I bought a spare and of course never needed it.

 

I can't speak to the internal sounds, I never used them, but I remember the main piano sample not bothering me the few times I turned up the volume on it.

[Jazz+]

Piano sound: Kawai ES8 (ES110) vs Yamaha P255 vs Roland FP90

 

The Kawai playing its C scale reveals a lot to me, it's a very clear and simple test. Also the top octave test. I hear the Kawai as sounding least digital. IMO, the others sound thinner in certain mid range frequencies, which is the perhaps the most critical frequency range for me. I'm am listening with excellent old Sony MDR-7506 headphones

 

Starting at 3:00 C scales

 

[video:youtube]

[Jazz+]

Not arthritis, more like general playing fatigue. And also some tendinitis in the wrists: repetitive stress, no tingling.

[ElmerJFudd]

In my experience, a digital action that bottoms out hard is tough on the wrists. Some are more forgiving than others - and the aggravater is playing at low volume and/or with a weak dynamic curve where you wind up compensating repetitively for volume by digging in too hard. Do you have tingling in the finger tips as well?

 

The only relief for tendinitis is rest from playing - unfortunately. You"ll need to take a break. When you return to playing, stretch (neck, shoulders, forearms, fingers), warm up and cool down. Age isn"t our friend - but we can keep the years at bay with good health and good habits.

 

Also, right now while you have aggravation isn"t the best time to be testing out actions.

 

[Jazz+]

Thanks EF,

 

Yes, tendinitis needs careful management. I have been managing it since the 3rd grade. I always take a break every 45 minutes and the day after. Must stretch gently more often. I tend to not play hard to the key bed bottom, I am pretty good at playing in the upper portion.

I have played the ES110 action next to a Roland FP30 and it was like night and day in terms of "fly away" key response. The Roland made me work hard. So the ES100 it is.

My favorite actions are those Mason and Hamlin 9.5 foot grands made between 1900-1930 with a down weight of 35 grams and an upweight of 25, "fly away key actions". Some of old C. Bechstein 9 foot piano grands have it too.

[pinkfloydcramer]

I've had mine over 2 years, no problems even after it took a nasty spill from waist high level to a concrete arena floor. Never a problem with hand fatigue. Action seems perfectly responsive, not sluggish. The main piano sound should work well for a jazz combo gig, IMO, although may not cut like a Yamaha for louder environments.

 

I have only heard the ES 110 FOH once, played solo briefly, but it sounded very good to me- although my opinion doesn't count for much on that since I have a hearing disability. For solo gigs, people seem to enjoy it's sound through my Motion Sound amps. I know I do. Partially because of the Kawai take on soundboard resonance. The built-in drum patterns are fun, too, especially #17, NOLA 2nd line. I don't see how Jazz could go wrong with the ES 110.

[LarsHarner]

I currently have had a ES8 for 4 + years, so as a portable purchased a ES110 and had 2 i needed to return due to keys to close to each other rubbing and cutting off- another piano had a key the didn't go down all the way- now I do realize these are isolated incidents given the large sample of pianos sold but I had a few other opinions as well:

 

I did not find the speakers to have enough bass and thought it sounded thin in some aspects- note it uses the EX sample of the ES8 (not all 4 pianos)- I would not disagree in saying it sounds nice for jazz piano- but as I play a lot of rock and blues I need more of a bottom end and the P125 filled that role better. ( I did own a P95 and P105 breifly in the past).

 

 

I will agree ES110 is a bit quicker than the P125 action- but as a whole the P125 fits me better. Casio did a nice job with the PX1000S, but onboard speakers are very important to me and the Yamaha sound is clearer in the bottom few octaves of the piano.

[Mark Schmieder]

The Kawai models seem consistently to sound the most balanced to me, over the past few years. After I've sat at a Roland for a while (sometimes even less than 15 minutes), I become acutely aware of issues that bother me a whole lot, as much as I tweak the sound in-person to see if it's unbaked and just my preference or part of the raw sound (and I think it's the latter). Not as three-dimensional, depth or heft, but a bit boomy while also think in the uppers and mids. I tend to prefer the Yamaha sound as a result, but don't like Yamahas much per se, even for rock anymore (I'll take Bechstein or Bluethner instead).

 

I can sort-of live with the Boesendorfer sound though, now that it's included due to the Yamaha buyout. But I suspect my Kawai preference is going to remain permanent, and after all, I intended to buy one in 1987 or thereabouts, before it was canceled (in the USA at least) due to a combination of underestimates on development time/costs/difficulty and overestimates on potential market size (it was years before Kawai finally tackled the Portable/Stage Digital Piano market).

 

Much of it is personal taste, but listening just now, several times, I think the Roland can sound nice in a mix, or in the context of a recording, but it never feels or sounds like the real thing to me from the point of view of player/instrument connection and an intimate playing environment. And maybe that's OK; especially when performing or recording and not practicing for one's own pleasure or musical development.

 

In spite of what I said about Yamaha, I am quite able to live with one series vs. the other, but I always forget which, until I'm back in a store and can compare. I just know it's the one designed more for classical, so probably it's the CFX and related models, as I think the S7 and related models are the ones designated more for rock/pop (and even jazz, where I prefer a classical sound anyway)? But I do like the feel of Yamahas; it's often a tie with Kawai as both are quite good and have slightly different strengths. For some reason though, Roland's Ivory Feel never feels as solid too me; a bit of side-to-side wiggle (which admittedly some acoustic pianos have too).

 

Thanks for posting this though, as it shows that the lower priced Kawai models, often praised here, are indeed worth considering after all.

[16251]

I seem to be following the lead of Jazz+. I am now a defector to the Casio PX-S3000 and ordered a Kawai ES110. I didn't have a problem with the action of PX but I admit, every time I played it, I had to adjust my technique, but I never felt it was damaging my hands. Before I purchased PX, I tried the other sub $1000 pianos as I wanted built in speakers and weigh less than 30 lbs. I tried ES110 but only played through built in speakers and I wasn't at all satisfied with sound first time I played it. This past weekend I decided to drive to NH from MA to demo again, but this time with headphones. I was impressed with samples. The Rhodes was considerably better than anything I heard in this segment. I didn't have to adjust my technique as the action was much closer to a real grand. I also liked that each note is sampled, which I guess Casio isn't.

 

Things I disliked about Casio PX-S3000: I bought S3000 cause I didn't like Rhodes options in S1000, but after many tweaks I still couldn't find an acceptable Rhodes on S3000. The main acoustic sample is Casio's best feature. Because the piano case is so thin, when I played I sometimes hit the rhythm on/off button; bad placement of that function (know there is a way to disable buttons but it is not convenient and removes spontaneity.) I also went for S3000 cause of the knobs but I found the preset knob functions poorly conceived and not very useful for what I had imagined I would use them for. Not having Midi built in frustrated me (I know that is now common in this price point and I could buy a interface (but there's another $60,) but Kawai has it - yeah!) I hated that I had to spend extra money for half damping pedal (Kawai comes with half damping pedal.) Also, never really needed three pedals since I'm not playing classical on these keyboards. Generally, I disliked many things about OS on Casio. Also, when I used split function, Casio engineers set left side (bass,) at a lower volume level. I got around this by setting up registrations but IMO the default should of been equal volumes and let user by touch sensitivity control left/right volumes. I also wasn't planning for the need to set so many registrations.

 

The ES110 doesn't have DSP's but since it has Midi and space on right side of wider case, I can utilize my Reface CP when I have urge to add effects to electric piano and clavinet.

 

Interesting time line: I drove to NH for another reason and decided to try ES110 with headphones. I got home and wasn't sure at this point but decided to post Casio on Craigslist on Saturday. On Saturday night I got an email from Guitar Center with a 15% coupon, which I get regularly. On Sunday I got an email from someone that wanted to purchase Casio that day. Because I used coupon when I bought Casio/casio case/pedal board. I only loss $70 and the Kawai with coupon was still less money, so I ended up with some extra cash.

[AnotherScott]

Not having Midi built in frustrated me (I know that is now common in this price point and I could buy a interface (but there's another $60,)

 

It's not just the money. There's extra setup time, needing to run another wall wart to a power strip to power the adapter, additional possible points of failure, something else you'd need to carry a spare for if you really want to be prepared (and that's more $ again), and the USB jack itself is not as rugged as a standard MIDI jack (nor ground isolated, though I don't know whether that matters in this scenario). It's good that those adapters exist, but it's best to avoid needing them if possible.

[Jazz+]

My review:

 

The ES110 has a very full and realistic mid range that I miss in the other brands I have auditioned. I use it for jazz gigs thus require a carrying weight less than 30 pounds and also insist on having built in monitors. Of course, when playing live, I always augment the onboard speakers with an external amp or the PA. The other models I compared the ES110 with were the Roland FP10, Roland FP30, Yamaha P-125, and the Casio PX-360 and PX-S3000.

 

I discovered that the ES110's action is more accommodating to my technique than the others in its class. I can fly away on the keys more accurately and with less effort, which is a necessity for me when playing bebop jazz lines. I can't tolerate an action that fights me in any way. I also notice I am much less fatigued on the ES110 action, thus inspired to play more. The CP4 is the only other action I like, but its carrying weight and lack of onboard monitors put it off my list. I also think the ES110 sounds are superior to the others in its class for straight ahead jazz: piano, Rhodes, organ, and vibes. In my opinion, the Kawai samples simply have fuller mids, presence, and more realistic piano overtones. It's warm sounding with sparkle too. I can get a legato flow in my bebop runs rather that that over emphasized hammer attack strike sound that some brands have.

 

I did need to tame the vintage Fender Rhodes electric piano because its default setting is far too jumpy, meaning it barks to easily and the tines are overly dingy. So, I set the Touch to Hard and saved it to a Registration. I don't have to play harder now, it simply keeps my touch from triggering the higher velocity samples with the over hyped barks and bell dings. Thus the edited Rhodes is quite nice now, it tamed both the previously jumpy dingy bell tone and the jumpy bark, both are far less pronounced, as they should be, it's just right now. I also turned Off the Rhodes Auto-Pan effect to focus my soloing lead lines more. By the way, I've owned a real Rhodes since 1979, and have always aimed for Herbie Hancock's clean tone vintage Rhodes as heard on the CTI recordings.

 

I reduced the brightness on the jazz organ, saved it top a Registration, and it's not bad.

 

Conclusion. The Kawai ES110 is the clear winner in its class, at least in my mind. Highly recommended.

[AnotherScott]

Of the lightweight hammer action boards with speakers, my favorite Rhodes sounds are probably in the Casio PX560 (between the ones it comes with, and the optional downloadable ones programmed by Dave Weiser). If nothing else, the PX560 EPs are far more tweakable than those in any of the others (whether from Casio, Kawai, or Yamaha). But the ES110 is good, and quite a bit less expensive, and I think has better acoustic piano. Obviously the PX560 has far more features and sounds, lots more split/layer functionality, etc., but that doesn't matter if you just need a few sounds and the Kawai has 'em. Action here is just personal preference, I think.

[Jazz+]

For me, It's all about the action. I seek an action that presents the least amount of physical limitations; the action that least hinders my abilities to do my best when bebop soloing at tempo 300 for hours on end.

[Throbert]

The last time I plugged audio to my hammer keys was when I had a Pro II, I never use onboard speakers as well.

I always use my RPX and/or one or more VIs and I'm plenty happy with my ES3. The only reason I'm looking at

the ES110 is to loose 18 pounds but I might gain a bit from the newer action. Wish It had wire USB.

[Polkahero]

I tried out the ES110 a couple of years ago when seeking a lightweight 88-weighted stage piano with built in speakers, but I ended up returning it as the onboard speakers weren't loud enough not to mention they point towards the floor? I do remember the action being fairly light and fast which was nice. Ended up going with a Kurzweil KA-90 which has much more powerful speakers although the action isn't as good (more sluggish and black key pivot points suck). Probably will try out a Dexibell P7 next to hopefully upgrade the action and speakers not to mention better piano sounds.

[Jazz+]

Btw I played the Kawai ES110 you just changed over to. I see where you and Peter are coming from. The action is really light and it sounded good for single note lines...even with the pitiful headphones (yet again ) at Kawai.

 

I think the ES110 is good for single note lines because it's piano doesn't have a powerfully bright hammer attack, therefore it produces a very legato line that flows. The mid range frequencies of each note have a fullness which also helps the legato flow; I play rather percussively so it's really a plus to have a legato leaning instrument and also a lighter action for speed and less hand stress. I also like how Kawai had their piano tuned when they did their sampling sessions; nice for my solo piano jazz ballads.

[drawback]

I have a couple of questions...

 

1. As a stage piano, in split mode, is it possible to set both sides to pedal sustain?

 

2. As a controller, how does one set up CC"s for program change and fx? MIDI learn? Function menu? Virtual Tech App?

 

EDIT- located and read the OM. Not gonna do it for me.

[Kawai James]

Hello drawback,

 

I've just responded to your PM, but will re-post the reply here just in case:

 

1. As a stage piano, in split mode, is it possible to have both the left side (bass) and right side (piano) sustain?

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the damper pedal will sustain both the left side and right side sounds when pressed.

EDIT: my colleague confirms that in Split mode, the damper pedal does *not* sustain the left sound.

 

The ES8 and some other models have a "Lower Pedal" setting to specify whether or not the damper pedal should sustain left side sounds in Split mode, however the ES110 lacks this setting so I assume the damper pedal will always sustain both left and right sides. I will confirm this point with a colleague in R&D just to be sure.

EDIT: my colleague confirms that, while there is no "Lower Pedal" setting to adjust, the default - and indeed, only - behaviour is "Off" - i.e. the damper pedal does not affect the left split sound.

 

2. As a controller, is there an option for assigning cc messages? For example if I want to run Neo Soul Keys and have a panel button control say, tremolo, can I assign that to toggle either through MIDI Learn or as a Function accessed through the Virtual Tech App etc.

 

No, I don't believe the ES110's panel buttons transmit MIDI CCs, therefore it will not be possible to assign functions in an app/software via a MIDI Learn etc.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Kind regards,

James

x

[Throbert]

I don't use my 88 for any thing other than keys to midi The 110 isn't

a controller, just looking at it should be obvious. You'll need something

else to plug pedals to manipulate and route.

[drawback]

Thanks James - I appreciate the response - that would be great if you could confirm on the sustain pedal, thanks!

 

I"m more interested in the light action and connectivity of the ES100 as a controller, and at this price point I"d consider something like a NanoKontrol as an easy add-on for the CC"s. I was just wondering what bare minimum you could do with what"s there.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Kawai James]

Ah, my colleague confirms that in Split mode, the damper pedal does *not* sustain the left sound.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Kind regards,

James

x

[AnotherScott]

interested in the light action and connectivity of the ES100 as a controller

In the lower price and weight range, the options would appear to be Numa Compact 2X (light action but by virtue of being semi-weighted) and Casio PX-5S (kind of an in-between action, not the lightest feeling hammer action, but not heavy). The Kawai MP7 had a nice light hammer action... I haven't played the newer MP7SE (action is not the same).

 

[drawback]

Thanks James & Scott - I"ll have to keep looking but it"s become clear there"s still nothing out there that won"t demand some kind of compromise!

 

Sorry to take this thread sideways.