A visit to the Moog store ca. 1/11/20

[GRollins]

As many here know, I'm fond of the Moog house sound--at least their traditional sound...I'm not so sure about where they're going now, and frankly I'm not sure they know where they're going. I "reviewed" the One elsewhere. In a nutshell, I didn't bond with it. My impression was that Moog chose to splice some Dave Smith/Prophet DNA into the thing in an effort to entice people who are into Smith's house sound. It doesn't work for me. I don't begrudge them the attempt, but I don't intend to drop money on a One, either, even if the price drops.

 

My primary intent this time was to look at the Subsequent 37, which is some sort of descendant of my Little Phatty. Do I need to replace the Little Phatty? No. I actually like it quite a bit...enough so that I kept it even after getting a Voyager. It was just a matter of curiosity. Would the 37 entice me or would it leave me with the same lukewarm impression that the One did?

 

As background, I need to note a few things:

1) I'm not actually a keyboard player, I'm a string player. Most of you know this by now I guess, but it's relevant for those who might not know because my impressions are not those of a seasoned player with many years of experience on keys. I know what I like and what I want sonically, but that's not the same as being what I call a "real" keyboard player. I have far more (and far better quality) keyboards than I deserve and I freely admit it. My only excuse is that I use the stuff I've got to compose and I hear certain sounds in my head and I'll do 'bout near anything to get those sounds right.

2) Anything I say needs to be filtered through the fact that I was in the Moog store in Asheville, NC. In the past (several trip's-worth) it has been relatively calm and quiet. This time was noisier and more confused, even though it was just a random Saturday in January.

3) People will inevitably take #2 and say my impressions are invalid. They'll also complain that the headphones aren't high enough quality, etc. I looked at the headphones they provided on the 37, but can't remember what they were. That said, my response to criticisms of that nature is that if it takes a pair of $500 headphones to hear the sterling qualities of any given piece of gear, then it's a fail (other than, arguably, in a studio setting) because in a live setting, with the vagaries of room acoustics, crowd noise, and with a PA system of non-hi-fi standards, all bets are off. The audience ain't gonna hear the differences that you think are so important. The Model D has that "it" factor. It sounds good even on an AM radio station. I'm not so sure the One would pass that test; it's too generic sounding. Synth-lite, so to speak. Other than the polyphony, it sounds too much like all the other synths out there, especially given the cost.

 

Okay, so...

1) I didn't much warm to the sound of the 37. Like the One, I had wanted to like it, but came away disappointed. I'll be keeping my Little Phatty (unless I get a Slim Phatty to save room, but that's another question, entirely).

2) Something I didn't expect--the keys are smaller than I'd want. It was sitting next to other keyboards, and the keys were something on the order of 1/2" shorter than the others.

3) Devastating: The pitch kept drifting. I'm not talking LFO-style, I mean random drift. I'm assuming it was temperature related, but don't know the details of how the 37 maintains temperature for the semiconductors in the oscillators. I pointed it out to one of the sales critters and he allowed as how he'd played the 37 the other day and felt that something was off. What the hell? This disturbs me on a deeper level than just my personal inconvenience. Why would Moog have a 37 on the floor that's not at peak performance? Those who might have read my impressions of the One may recall that I was talking to a salesman about how the One wasn't working for me and he'd said that he didn't think the One on the floor sounded all that great, but that it was a firmware revision or two behind and that the one in back sounded fantastic. Well, that may be true, but why is your demo not sporting the latest and greatest of everything? It's not like it takes all that long or costs anything to update a keyboard. What the hell is going on at Moog?

 

While I was there I also spent a bit of time on a Model 10. Much better, other than the fact that it was hooked to some POS miniature 1-1/2 or 2 octave Chiclet keyboard (What? Moog can't spring for a real keyboard on a $10,000 system?). More what I expect from a Moog, but that's not surprising given that it was designed during the same era that I was forming my notions of what a synth was and what it should sound like. Perhaps I'm just attached to the old school sound to such an extent that I'll never like the newer synths. I'll own up to the possibility.

 

While I was playing the 10, I asked the salesman about the Keith Emerson Wall-O'-Moog modular sitting next to it. It was, for the first time ever in my experience, turned on. I asked if I could play it for a minute. He said he'd be glad to let me...but no one knew how to operate it and that some modules didn't work! (WTF? See above.) He said that he knew the sequencer worked and was kind enough to pull out some cables and patch it across to the 10. On the one hand, I got to play with one module out of the Emerson clone/tribute rig. Yay! On the other hand, they've got hardware on the floor that doesn't work properly and no one knows a thing about. Boo!

 

He indicated that Keith's old tech works at Moog and he hoped to be able to get the guy to take a look at the rig. He also said that they would be getting in some sort of sound system that they would be hooking it to...so, no headphones for that synth...? Unclear. Anyway, maybe, just maybe, that will be fixed up the next time I get up Asheville-ways.

 

While personal responses to the 37's sound quality will vary, I would appreciate it if someone with a 37 could let me know if their unit's pitch drifts. I'm pretty sure that the answer will be no, but still...

 

Grey

 

Addendum: In another indication of disarray at The House That Bob Built, the salesman told me that the reason they had the stupid little Chiclet keyboard on the Model 10 was that the guys in the back couldn't be bothered to stop and make a cable (gate, S-trig, and all that jazz to MIDI) for the store. They'd had to order a cable (and maybe the little keyboard?) in off the Web. Whaaat? I...I just...I...dammit, something' ain't right up there in Asheville. I hope I'm not witnessing the beginning of the fall of Moog. That would break my heart.

[The Real MC]

I bought a Voyager RME from the store back in 2017. It was the test unit for the production floor. When I started gigging it, it would drift out of tune.

 

I also own one of the first Voyagers and the tuning is rock solid on that.

 

Opened the hood on both of them and found that the RME had the wrong capacitors in the VCOs (correct values but wrong dielectric). Installed the correct ones and it was much better. But the correct caps were hard to find. I think the factory had to make a substitution but someone in engineering didn't understand the impact of the wrong cap.

[jimkost2002]

Grey, your impressions of the Subsequent 37 are correct.

The Osc Drift and shorter (and also bad key action) were why I chose not to get one.

I also thought the front panel was too crowded as opposed to the Phatty"s.

FWIW, the Subsequent 37CV edition (with sliver front panel) exhibits none of these flaws.

They show up on Reverb or Ebay from time to time.

[Josh Paxton]

I've had a Subsequent 37 for a couple years and haven't experienced any pitch drift, though it's definitely been a "once in a while" board rather than a frequent use board. It was a trip to the Moog store that made me want one. I was playing around with the demo unit, thinking it was nice, but nothing I actually needed. Ironically, the thing that changed my mind was when I hit the "init patch" button. The sound that came out then â just the unfiltered saw wave with an instant-on, instant-off envelope â was the exact sound I had in my head for a particular thing.

 

It is disheartening to hear that they're letting the place fall into such a state.

[ksoper]

My primary intent this time was to look at the Subsequent 37, which is some sort of descendant of my Little Phatty. Do I need to replace the Little Phatty? No. I actually like it quite a bit...enough so that I kept it even after getting a Voyager. It was just a matter of curiosity. Would the 37 entice me or would it leave me with the same lukewarm impression that the One did?

 

I think the Sub 37 is more a descendant of the Sub Phatty than the Little Phatty. Gordon Reid's review of the Sub Phatty acknowledges the difference in the sound. This seems to be where Moog began to diverge from the classic oscillator sound. The Sub Phatty was developed from Minitaur tech.

 

3) People will inevitably take #2 and say my impressions are invalid. They'll also complain that the headphones aren't high enough quality, etc. I looked at the headphones they provided on the 37, but can't remember what they were. That said, my response to criticisms of that nature is that if it takes a pair of $500 headphones to hear the sterling qualities of any given piece of gear, then it's a fail (other than, arguably, in a studio setting) because in a live setting, with the vagaries of room acoustics, crowd noise, and with a PA system of non-hi-fi standards, all bets are off. The audience ain't gonna hear the differences that you think are so important. The Model D has that "it" factor. It sounds good even on an AM radio station. I'm not so sure the One would pass that test; it's too generic sounding. Synth-lite, so to speak. Other than the polyphony, it sounds too much like all the other synths out there, especially given the cost.

 

That "people" was me. And I don't think your impressions are invalid. I just don't think that the Moog Store is the place to demo one of their boards. Seems silly, but Moog is first and foremost a factory. Their store strikes me as more of a factory tour gift shop. "This is what we build and here's how we build it. Take a t-shirt and coffee mug with you on the way out."

 

 

... I didn't much warm to the sound of the 37. Like the One, I had wanted to like it, but came away disappointed.

 

That's cool. When it came out I was expecting a Minimoog on steroids. It's a Minitaur on steroids.

 

...Those who might have read my impressions of the One may recall that I was talking to a salesman about how the One wasn't working for me and he'd said that he didn't think the One on the floor sounded all that great, but that it was a firmware revision or two behind and that the one in back sounded fantastic. Well, that may be true, but why is your demo not sporting the latest and greatest of everything? It's not like it takes all that long or costs anything to update a keyboard. What the hell is going on at Moog?

 

They're building, building, building, and the store is an afterthought. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

While I was playing the 10, I asked the salesman about the Keith Emerson Wall-O'-Moog modular sitting next to it. It was, for the first time ever in my experience, turned on. I asked if I could play it for a minute. He said he'd be glad to let me...but no one knew how to operate it and that some modules didn't work! (WTF? See above.) He said that he knew the sequencer worked and was kind enough to pull out some cables and patch it across to the 10. On the one hand, I got to play with one module out of the Emerson clone/tribute rig. Yay! On the other hand, they've got hardware on the floor that doesn't work properly and no one knows a thing about. Boo!

 

It's never been on when I've been there. When it was introduced side-by-side with Emerson's own synth and him in attendance neither synth was powered up.

 

He indicated that Keith's old tech works at Moog and he hoped to be able to get the guy to take a look at the rig. He also said that they would be getting in some sort of sound system that they would be hooking it to...so, no headphones for that synth...?

 

I just read that the guy who bought the last of 3 Emerson modulars had Gene Stopp to his house to show him how to use it. I think Gene may be the only one who knows exactly how everything works and I'm sure they've got him busy with modular projects. Again, the whole factory gift shop thing.

 

I hope I'm not witnessing the beginning of the fall of Moog. That would break my heart.

 

Mine as well, but I'm not overly concerned. Mike Adams was tasked with keeping the doors open. If he hadn't come on board when he did there would be no Voyager at your house. In the 17 ensuing years Moog has developed and shipped a ridiculous number of units given that they're a small company competing with the likes of Yamaha, Korg, and Roland. And while Moog gives off the happy family-hippy dippy-warm fuzzy vibe, Adams has a no-nonsense approach to manufacturing. Build and ship or die.

 

The next time I go to Asheville I'll holler at you. I can promise you a different experience.

[Jonathan Hughes]

I have a Sub37 and the oscillators have never once drifted.

 

As far as comparing it to the Little Phatty, it doesn't sound a bit different. The Little Phatty is a little smoother sounding, and you can do some nice things with th oscillators interacting with the filter when they're not set to full volume that you can't do on the Sub/Subsequent37.

[GRollins]

A couple of things that are semi-related to what I said above that didn't get said:

--I never expected to become a keybed snob. I mean, really...me? I can't even play with two hands worth a damn, so why should I care about the length of the keys and the pressure and the travel and such esoterica? And yet, here I am, with firm notions of what I want in a keybed. Never saw that coming.

--Pure speculation on my part, because as I said above, I've no knowledge of the innards of the 37, but what if the resistive heating element used to keep the chip(?--I'm assuming that it's not a discrete oscillator) in the oscillator warm had come unmoored? I'm assuming that there's a negative feedback loop that monitors the temperature and increases or decreases the current through the heater to keep the temperature stable. If the adhesive were to give up, then there might be an air gap between the heater and the chip body which would lead to a sort of hysteresis-lag situation where the resistor heats, but is not effective at heating the chip. Instead, the heater heats the surrounding air, the chip warms inefficiently, the servo turns off (or reduces?) current to the heater, then the air cools very rapidly, as in seconds, rather than the much, much slower cooling that you would get as the solid mass of the chip body cooled. There may or may not be pictures of the guts on a 37's oscillator section on the web. I haven't looked. Schematics won't be available, but that's not germaine to my hypothesis anyway, as I'm postulating a purely mechanical problem, not an electronic design flaw. Whether it would rise to the level of a mechanical design flaw--rather than an unfortunate one-off problem with the demo unit at the Moog store--I'm in no position to judge. I have no statistical basis because my entire 37 experience consists of that one unit.

--Something that I didn't put in above because it's muddled in my memory and I didn't want to confuse things: Somewhere in my travels on Saturday I ran across a really ragged-out pair of headphones. It was either at Bagatelle Books, where they have a couch in back with a Grandmother (at least I think it was a Grandmother) on a coffee table, or at Moog. The headphones were so far gone that the fabric cover on one ear pad was ripped to shreds and the foam was coming out. I had to stuff the foam back inside before I could put them on. If it was Bagatelle, that's one thing. It if was Moog, that's another entirely. I didn't want to cast aspersions on Moog undeservedly in my initial post. Approach this observation with caution unless someone from the Asheville area can dip into the places in question and verify. It's too long a drive for me to make just to look at a pair of headphones.

 

The Real MC,

I've got a Voyager keyboard (an early one) and an RME (sorta early). Which caps are you referring to and what dielectric should they have? I'm all in favor of stable tuning.

 

jimkost2002,

I agree that the knobs could use a little more air between them, but after fiddling with Euro stuff for the last six months it seemed like the wide open spaces to me...

 

Josh Paxton,

Yeah, that's all it takes--just one patch. Fortunately, the Little Phatty and Voyager have more than that, but knowing that there's one magic sound hidden in a piece of hardware can change everything.

I'm really, really hoping that I'm wrong about Moog declining, but things like that pathetic Chiclet keyboard and its cable on the Model 10 (and the story of why they're there) are troubling.

 

ksoper,

Along with my notes from my visit Saturday, keep in mind that Moog cancelled the Moogfest. The question that raised for me was whether they were financially sound. Sure it costs money, but it's also good advertising for them and a tax write off. For them to cancel the Moogfest so abruptly and with no explanation and with no (announced) plans to restart it struck me as worrisome. Another point: My lukewarm response to the One has been echoed by a number of others, both here and on other boards. It doesn't seem to be a runaway hit. Yes, I'd have a hard time justifying the money, but if I loved it, I'd say so--I'm not the kind of guy who does the sour grapes thing. I'd drool over it and start watching used prices. Instead, I'm planning on sticking with my Voyagers for, like, ever...especially if it's the last of the old school sounding boards. Hell, maybe I'll stockpile a couple in case one fails.

 

Grey

[mate stubb]

We ain't all Moog people. I've not been attracted to almost all of the ones I've played. But in the current line, the Matriarch sounds special to me.

[GRollins]

Everyone's going to gravitate to the stuff that most closely matches their inner sound palette. I respect the Dave Smith synths, for instance, but the sound just isn't what I hear in my inner ear.

 

There's also the matter of application. When you're blasting a beat at 119dB for people on a dance floor, a more edgy lead line will cut through the sonic clutter. It's all in the frequency domain. I'm more in an "orchestral" mode, where you've got a larger number of different instruments playing at the same time and if you write a solo then everyone else drops back a bit to let that instrument take the lead. That's in the volume/amplitude domain. That suits me better, for any number of reasons. I'm not writing music to dance to, I'm writing music to listen to. Not a popular idea, I admit, but someone's got to buck the trend. The world's up to its ears in dance music. If I go marching along to my different drummer, they won't miss me. I'm okay with that.

 

Grey

[GRollins]

Ooops...I mentioned Bagatelle Books above; I should have said Harvest Records. To the best of my knowledge, Bagatelle does not have a synth in back. Sorry 'bout that.

 

Grey

[ProfD]

Of of the current crop of Moogs in the music store, I dig the Grandmother and Matriarch. Maybe I've just got a thing for older women.

[GRollins]

This is getting a little creepy...

 

(What was that movie...? Harold & Maude?)

 

Grey

[The Real MC]

The Real MC,

I've got a Voyager keyboard (an early one) and an RME (sorta early). Which caps are you referring to and what dielectric should they have? I'm all in favor of stable tuning.

 

C63, C66, and C81 should be 3900nf polystyrene caps. They're in the "waveshaping" section of the analog board. Their appearance should have clear ends on the case.

 

They were hard to find, had to buy them from the UK. Dial Electronics had them.

 

[GRollins]

Thanks. I'll take a look.

 

I keep a fair selection of styrene caps in stock, so even if they're wonky I might be able to burrow into my parts bins and come up with the right stuff. I can't imagine that you'd need more than a 25V rated cap in a Voyager--they use, what, +12, -12, +5, and...something else...10V? I know that the first step in tuning the boogers is to check the voltages, but I don't remember what the rails were off the top of my head. I've got notes somewhere.

 

(Their power supplies are pitifully designed, but that's another matter for another day.)

 

Grey

[The Real MC]

The PSU's are not Moog parts, they're 3rd party.

 

Power rails are +/-10v. A 25v cap would be the smallest I would use.

 

They substituted mylar caps, which were in an red epoxy case.

[GRollins]

It's not like a decent power supply is all that hard to design...surely they've got someone in house who can handle such a trivial exercise (don't make me come up there to hand you a schematic boys and girls, I won't be happy). I'm sure it'll come down to cost; buying an OEM power supply saving a dollar or two, but at their typical pricing I think they could manage to work out something a little better.

 

Grey

[The Real MC]

It's not like a decent power supply is all that hard to design...surely they've got someone in house who can handle such a trivial exercise (don't make me come up there to hand you a schematic boys and girls, I won't be happy). I'm sure it'll come down to cost; buying an OEM power supply saving a dollar or two, but at their typical pricing I think they could manage to work out something a little better.

 

It's a switching PSU. Much harder to design than a linear PSU.

 

Warranty repairs can be a factor. The general repair rule with PSUs is you repair a linear PSU but you replace a switching PSU. Repairing a switching PSU can be a frustrating process.

 

Using 3rd party switching PSUs in electronic products is actually very common. They are superior in watts/in^3, run much cooler, and are much lighter as they use much smaller power transformers. Linear PSUs are pretty much reserved for low power applications anymore.

 

[GRollins]

Aye, but I like things I can repair and adjust. I'm not a big fan of filling land fills with discarded electronics. Just because it's convenient doesn't make it right.

 

Plus, with an analog power supply you're not spewing digital hash into the power lines or rails. Coming from a background in high end stereo equipment, I take things like that very seriously. Analog power supplies sound better.

 

Grey

[The Real MC]

Ever seen the voltage rails on an OBX? That has an analog PSU and the rails are very dirty from the digital switching noise of the embedded system. That was a design issue (they did not have separate grounds for analog and digital circuits)

 

Just because it's an analog PSU doesn't mean it has clean rails.

 

I'm in the DIY club too. While a repairable unit is more convenient and minimizes landfill fodder, as power demands increase you reach a point where the efficiency gets worse. You cross a point where the switching PSU is more efficient and puts less of a load on power utilities, and on the environment. Environment or landfill - pick your poison.

[GRollins]

Analog power supplies don't make switching noise. If the load makes noise, it's not the power supply's fault, although you could argue that the designer should have added ceramic or mica caps to shunt the hash from the rails to ground (as close to the noise source as possible) and/or inductors in the lines to absorb it. Electrolytics don't work at high frequencies--they pretty much cease being effective before you even get out of audio frequencies, much less into RF ranges (which is why bypassing an electrolytic with a film cap is so astonishingly effective). You'd be surprised how many designers are unaware of that simple fact. ESR? Whuzzat? Back to school, boy!

 

If there's so much digital nasty that it pollutes the rails regardless, give the digital stuff its own PSU to save the rest of the circuitry from having to put up with bad neighbors.

 

There are solutions to all these problems...they just need to be employed rather than shrugged off. A lot of this crap is dirt cheap (ceramic caps, for instance), but even those few pennies upset the bean counters. Worse yet are the designers who have the attitude that the power supply is just a utility item; an afterthought. In their view, if it delivers the voltage they spec it's good enough. Not so. They should know better. They need to have their noses shoved in the mess they made, then get whacked over the head with a rolled up newspaper. The power supply is part of the signal path. It matters.

 

In my world, pure Class A power amplifiers running heavy bias currents are common; hundreds of watts of heat dissipation at idle. Tube amps use a lot of current even when they aren't Class A. A Class A tube amp is a beast--the 800 pound gorilla of the audio world. No one uses switching power supplies for high end audio willingly--they sound horrible. I haven't looked at the legal situation in a while, but Europe was trying to pass laws to force audio companies to use switching PSUs. They were pushing back, wanting an exemption. I don't know how that turned out. A keyboard? 20, 30, 50W PSU? Piffle. That ain't nuthin'. Barely a blip. Yes, I want sound quality. I'll pay the extra $10 and carry the extra pound. I used to redesign power supplies--hack them and build a beefier PSU outside with an umbilical leading back to the chassis. I don't have the time to play with things like that anymore, but it's amazing what a few dollars worth of parts and a decent regulated power supply can do for the sound of a circuit. Amps and preamps are usually designed pretty well, but some of the other units, like active crossovers, often cut corners. If I recall correctly, some of my first posts here were about my Yamaha MM8 (wall wart--ugh) having gotten hung because of a power surge here at the house. That's ignorant design on Yamaha's part. All because they cheaped out on the power supply for a $1000 keyboard. Jeez. Inexcusable.

 

Grey

[The Real MC]

Yeah I bought a tiny Yamaha mixer with a wall wart that is under spec'd current wise. Noticed that RIGHT AWAY and replaced it.

 

I frigging HATE wall warts. Terrible products. Refuse to use them for gigging, the barrel plugs slip out because you can't secure them. I use the old Juice Goose 12Paq for low voltage needs, any low voltage gear is in the same rack with the 12Paq and the cables are tied down. In my studio, I'm hard pressed think of ANY gear using a wall wart (using a 12Paq there too). The Yamaha mixer is for band practice room only.

 

Wall wart is a deal killer for gear, unless it offers something REALLY BETTER.

 

I'm not opening that can of worms...

[GRollins]

I'm kinda irritated that Yamaha is so fond of wall warts. The MM8 has one--as a lower mid-line keyboard I could try to overlook it, but face it, the chassis on that thing is virtually empty and it weighs next to nothing, so you can't use those as excuses.

 

My MOXF8 is a little heavier, but still more or less the same situation as the MM8. Note that the weight question--which people always try to use as an excuse--isn't really valid. You're carrying the wall wart anyway, likely in the same gig bag as the keyboard, so it's the same as if it was inside the keyboard.

 

I've got a Motif XS Rack and it's got this brick of an external power supply that's actually moderately heavy. In that case, the chassis is pretty jam-packed and is already huge. It's only 1U, but it's about three feet deep and pretty full. I think they would have been better off using a 2U chassis and putting the power supply inside. As a fringe benefit they could have used a bigger display and made the chassis less deep.

 

Grey