Sound versus convenience

[Dr88s]

My main board is a Nord Stage 2EX. I find both its drive and Leslie simulation to be decidedly 'meh".

 

In the garage sale forum I almost bought an OD pedal to improve my organ sound, but not having EFX loop I/O, using it would mean having to bring my ventilator or Lester K pedal as well. Someone else ended up buying the pedal and it was probably a good thing because as much as I want to achieve 'that' sound, the convenience factor of bringing one board with no additional hardware doesn"t justify the added price and complication (at least for my needs).

 

What are your thoughts on going that extra mile to get the perfect sound versus settling for 'good enough' to keep the schlep factor and setup time to a minimum?

[Baldwin Funster]

Unless it's a high profile or high paying gig I opt for convenience. If the rig sounds alright and I play good that night, in the end that's all that matters. If I get in and out of the venue faster and easier my stress level is reduced and I can live to fight another day.

[nursers]

Unless it's a high profile or high paying gig I opt for convenience. If the rig sounds alright and I play good that night, in the end that's all that matters. If I get in and out of the venue faster and easier my stress level is reduced and I can live to fight another day.

 

Exactly this - and unless you have the perfect PA system, a near quiet audience and a handful of other keys players in the audience focused solely on you, NO-ONE is going to notice the difference. Sadly of course

[Adan]

I don't think there are valid generalizations when it comes to how you weigh convenience versus other factors. Everybody slices this up differently. I like to have the option of scaling up or scaling down, but of course that means having more gear around.

 

For me, over time, there's been a very clear trend towards convenience. I'm certainly not the same person who would take a rhodes suitcase or a Hammond chop to a gig. Of course it isn't just that I'm older and have less free time, it's that the alternatives or so much better and continue to be so. If you're of a certain age, then those trendlines proceeded in parallel and created a synergy towards less shlep.

 

It isn't just shlep, it's also your personal bandwidth. The more you have to think about whether you packed, say, the wall wart you need for your ventilator, the less you're able to relax and let your mind focus on music, or if not music then just finding a peaceful state of mind. I've often been my own worst enemy in this regard, but I try not to be that anymore.

 

[J. Dan]

I like a scalable approach. For the day to day covers gig, a Kronos with a lower tier controller handles all my needs. Depending on the gig, stage size, setup time, and energy level, I can add an amp sim as an insert using the Kronos ins and outs. I can also bring an analog solo synth and run it into the Kronos in so that any voices from the Kronos or analog synth can be routed through any amp sim or internal Kronos IFX and/or MFX and be all internally mixed. Lower tier controls sounds in the Kronos and Kronos can have its keyboard trigger internal sounds layered with the lead synth, furthermore if I want to go all out, I can also bring out a Keytar controller, wireless midi, and a midi solutions box to control sounds in the Kronos and/or lead synth and route controls as needed. I have alternate patches that I can do with a limited setup (just the Kronos) that sound ALMOST as good. Each gig I can decide if it's worth the trouble to bring extra stuff and scale appropriately.

[Guven Ilter]

Unless it's a high profile or high paying gig I opt for convenience. If the rig sounds alright and I play good that night, in the end that's all that matters. If I get in and out of the venue faster and easier my stress level is reduced and I can live to fight another day.

 

This is exactly the sort of mentality I have adopted over the years.I have a Nord Stage 3 and with the samples and synth section worked on for several months, I ended up with a set for two acts that I play in. The sounds are good enough for small venues with oversize bass and guitar amps the suppress even the drums, but for larger venues where I have less worries about the stage sound mixing with PA, I carry a second board (a Nord Lead A1 or Yamaha MX49, depending on the type of gig), even a third (a Moog Subsequent 37) at times. Most of the time, I find myself comping with my main board, and I play the others three or four times during the whole show.

 

It's a wholly different story in the studio though...

[Outkaster]

If I can't get over something sonically then it ruins the musical experience. As long as I am physically able I will bring and 88 note Forte or CP88 out on a gig. People ask why and I tell them it's how I put my best foot forward. Too many musicians (and I see this all the time) want to be "close enough" or just "good enough" for any gig. They never realize it isn't about them it's about the audience. That's said I understand about the weight of things for some people. It seems the industry is focused on light weight keyboards, guitars and amps. I see talk of it all the time on the music scene. For me there is just things I won't sacrifice to put my best foot forward musically.

[Adan]

They never realize it isn't about them it's about the audience.

 

I never realized this!

 

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

"....Sound versus convenience.."

 

I struggle with this all the time. Other than the real deals (wurli, rhodes, hammond, acoustic piano, Clav D6) I feel I currently have the best sounding rig that I've ever owned. The Gemini module provides all of that and now also a decent acoustic piano as well. I alternate between the internal leslie and Vent. So this rig now includes 2 keyboards, Gemini Module, Voce Midi drawbar unit and Vent. Hookup time and other stuff to connect (power conditioner, pedals, mixer) which are also all boxed up for carrying, so setup includes unboxing, midi cords, power adapters, pedal setup, mixer (unboxing) and connections. Once setup I'm very happy with the sound, it's getting to this point which is frustrating (30 minute setup/breakdown). For quick gigs it's the PC3, Voce V5+/Vent and keyboard amp. I can have this setup/broken down in 10 minutes. Doesn't sound as good. I'm constantly caught between the long setup and good sound or the quick setup and not as happy with the sound. I will say though that even with a quick setup I still use the Voce/Vent and the "added" time to set them up is probably 2 minutes. When we practice I just go with the PC3 only and plug into the PA. Think about the old days where you needed a bunch of keyboards, we've certainly come a long way.

[PianoMan51]

You"re either going to kick yourself during the setup and teardown,

 

Or...

 

You"re going to kick yourself during the gig.

[rockinredeye]

For the longest time I carried three keyboards, one of which was a Hammond XK-? and a Motion-Sound R3-147, plus amp and other stuff. 12 years ago I bought a Kurzweil PC3 and never looked back. I'm not trying to convince anybody that its organ sound or Leslie simulation is perfect, but, a few years ago one of our guitarists told me that he always got a little thrill when I turned the Leslie on tremolo! I never knew he felt that way. Anyway, it sounds good enough to me that I really enjoy playing it; and I used to own a real Hammond and Leslie 147 (in the '70s.) I'd love to have a Mojo or similar and a Vent, but that's just too much stuff and I don't play for a living. I'm a one board guy with a pedalboard, IEMs and no stage amp. Done.

[David R]

Agreed on the concept that it's a sliding scale. There is enough redundancy in my small rig so that I can take only the Nord or only controller/laptop to 85-90% of my gigs. If it's a B3 or Rhodes heavy gig the Nord usually wins. If it's a tight setup in terms of time and/or space I'll hack it out with the laptop. If it's a recording session, since Pro Tools doesn't lie, I go for the best of what I have and/or what's available at the studio.

 

In your situation, the question I would ask is "how much distorted organ do I actually play?" If it's enough to warrant the extra schlep and setup then go for it. For my taste, the Tall & Fat isn't an improvement over the drive in the Ventilator but that's just me.

[Michael Wright]

You"re either going to kick yourself during the setup and teardown,

 

Or...

 

You"re going to kick yourself during the gig.

Usually when I leave something at home, I miss it during the gig.

[CEB]

Depends on context of the gig. Not being snarky but it does depend. Certain gigs I carry a ton of organ junk and some gigs Motif organs sit better in the mix. Rarely have I weighed sound vs schlepage. Usually I weigh sound vs how easily can I automate patch control. If it"s a classic R&B organ gig I"ll carry a Hammond and either Yammy or Kawai. If it is a fast pace show gig with tons of patch changes it"s Kronos and FA setup under control of SetList.

 

But age is changing things. But I"m being promised a tech if I play another year. I hope it"s good help.

[Dr88s]

Thanks for the replies; I agree with most of you.

 

I really tend to think that the audiences I play for wouldn"t appreciate the differences that the added gear would make; while the differences might sound significant to me, they would likely be too subtle especially in a mix for the average listener to notice.

 

 

[Mr. Nightime]

I tend to agree on the context of the gig. I am currently in 2 bands, and the musical approach determines what I bring.

 

In my Classic Rock band, my playing is pianocentric, so I bring the Yamaha MM8. There is enough organ work, and that's where I don't compromise, so I set the SK-2 on the upper tier.

 

In my Funky Blues band, I'm on Hammond 90% of the time. My first gig with them, I brought my main setup, and made a change in between sets. It became so painful to play the Hammond so much on the second tier that I put the Yamaha back in the truck, moved the Hammond down to the first tier, and removed the second tier from the stand.

 

The next gig, the Yamaha never left the truck. The SK-2 has a quite passable piano sound to it, especially if I use the 8-pin Leslie out to the Vent then to my board for the organ, and a different channel for the extra sounds, so they can be set differently on my board.

 

That is the only difference that I'll make. Amplification stays the same.

 

Unless I REALLY want to rock out, then instead of my QSC K10 pointing toward me as a monitor, I'll break out the pair of Mackie Thump 12s, putting them behind me. Normally not needed because I run through the FOH in both bands. Classic Rock band the bass player owns the PA and runs sound, the Funky Blues band, the guitar player owns and operates it, and both love to actually hear the keys, unlike some sound men (but that's from an older thread.)

 

Either way, I have it figured out how to do the schlep in one trip.

 

I figure the audience deserves my best sound, even if they do not have the discerning ears to realize the difference.

 

I might bring the Wurlitzer 200 to one of the Funky Blues gigs when I finish the mechanical restoration.

 

 

 

[CowboyNQ]

I try not to push myself past the point of diminishing returns.

 

Of course it can be hard to define where that point is, and depending on the return one is after it will obviously be different for different players.

 

It"s currently a really interesting question for me as I"m in the midst of trying to add a bit more scalability to one of my rigs. It"s like trying to whittle down a wedding guest list as I attempt to determine what should and shouldn"t make the cut in differing scenarios.

 

[WesG]

For me, it matters most how I feel when I am playing the instrument. It is really tough to play your best on an instrument you can't bond with. I know full well that most of the audience can't hear the difference between a VR-09 and furniture, but I schlep furniture all the time......because it just feels great, and inspiring, to play it.

[Bootsy]

A few years ago, we made the decision (as a duo) to move towards lighter equipment. It reduced the physical demand and amount of set-up time before/after gig. The increased energy from the lighter equipment caused us to play better and have shorter recovery time which allowed us to play more gigs. While from a pure sound point, we may have compromised a little authenticity but I think we're playing better. Well worth the convenience for us!

 

FWIW - my main gigging rig is now Casio PX-5S with a Bose L1.

[AnotherScott]

Too many musicians (and I see this all the time) want to be "close enough" or just "good enough" for any gig. They never realize it isn't about them it's about the audience.

But the sonic differences are probably only noticed by you, and perhaps 3 listeners, 2 of whom are also in the band. ;-) I agree with this...

 

I really tend to think that the audiences I play for wouldn"t appreciate the differences that the added gear would make; while the differences might sound significant to me, they would likely be too subtle especially in a mix for the average listener to notice.

 

But also, to some extent, this...

 

For me, it matters most how I feel when I am playing the instrument. It is really tough to play your best on an instrument you can't bond with. I know full well that most of the audience can't hear the difference between a VR-09 and furniture, but I schlep furniture all the time......because it just feels great, and inspiring, to play it.

 

It's not just sound vs. convenience, it's sound-and-feel vs. convenience. And with lighter boards, I think it's harder to get sufficiently satisfying feels than it is to get good enough sounds, and especially as it gets easier to get quality sounds from an iPad, or VSTs in a tablet format. The compromises are increasingly more in the realm of actions and control surfaces.

 

If I were playing strictly for the money, I'd lean 95% toward convenience... but I also do it to get pleasure from it, so I have limits. That said, there were a couple of gigs I did last year with nothing but my AX-Edge. Sometimes a half dozen sounds and 4 octaves can get you through the gig, and the keytar is a different kind of fun experience.

 

I've done lots of rehearsals with only one board. But most gigs are going to have two boards... it sounds better, it feels better, I play better, and since I'd be taking the second board for backup anyway, I might as well set it up and enjoy it. Plus it minimizes the need to set up splits ahead of time, I usually just call up each sound as I need it, on one board or the other. So I'm trading off one kind of convenience for another.

 

OTOH, there is the occasional gig where I've take 6 boards!

 

[cphollis]

Five years ago, I would have enthusiastically answered "sound matters more than schlep". I would bring at least three boards, all sorts of outboard processing, a mixer and my own pair of PA units. And lots of cables.

 

As of now, "schlep matters more than sound", especially with the bars and private parties that make up the local scene. That goes for the band PA and lights that I also do.

 

I'm now down to a single Nord Stage 3 Compact with a weighted controller underneath. A single pair of stereo outs. Zero external processing. A single SS CPSv3 for stage sound, with mono out to FOH. One trip with the cart, 5 minute setup/teardown. No stress or effort either.

 

As far as the sound goes, I think the Nord emulations are good enough to fool 95% of listeners when it comes to APs, EPs, B3, etc.

 

And that's what I'm after these days -- "good enough".

[allan_evett]

Unless it's a high profile or high paying gig I opt for convenience. If the rig sounds alright and I play good that night, in the end that's all that matters. If I get in and out of the venue faster and easier my stress level is reduced and I can live to fight another day.

 

This is normally my approach to basic, club gigs and even non-headlining fest dates. So many times in the past I would stack up two or three keyboards, and/or a rack with outboard effects, computer, etc.. That was appropriate for a high profile 'Floyd tribute in 2015 and some previous original gigs, but it feels wasted on bar audiences. When doing covers for people to dance it's about gettting them into the groove; and I've learned by experience that piles of state-of-the-art gear in those circumstances goes over the crowd's heads.

 

While I agree with Outkaster about putting my best foot forward, I also try to balance in a certain amount of practicality. Sometimes I'll bring an 88, especially if any solo piano or accompanying is involved. But for band work, a weighted 76 works just as well. Previously I stacked two keyboards for every band gig; lately I've been letting the gig type and staging logistics decide that. If it's one keyboard though, it'll be one that I know very well and enjoy digging into.

[KuruPrionz]

I want simplicity.

Stuff happens, things go wrong.

In my experience as a gigging musician, a sound man and a recording studio rat, cables and the jacks they plug into are the cause of most problems.

Bad power at the club used to be common but has improved a great deal.

 

So, every cord represents 3 potential problem points if something goes wrong. I just want to play, not figure out technical problems.

 

I agree with the feel, it has to feel good to play well.

 

And I think you can get great music out of just about anything that isn't blown up.

I do bring a spare amp to important gigs - NYE is coming up quick! I may leave it in the trunk of the car and only schlep it if needed.

FWIW, I am a guitarist but this thread covers a universally pondered topic. Our bassist used to lug a big Mesa rig around with 2 cabs. It sounded great but huge and heavy, he has a bad back from shagging it about.

He bought modern bass gear with lightweight powerful amps and speakers. Still sounds great but much less work.

 

And we are getting a new, smaller lighter better PA system for Xmas. It took 2 of us to heave the 1-15 JBL speakers up onto the poles. With a subwoofer, we don't need huge heavy mains. And the sub can be dollied in and stay on the floor. So sometimes it is simply a $$$ issue.

[Anderton]

There are always tradeoffs involved. As KuruPrionz points out, there's more than sound vs. convenience. There's reliability, setup time, teardown time, maintenance, etc.

 

Most of the audience is listening to the song, not the sound. So anything that furthers the song/performance is always worth prioritizing. But, that also means if you're not happy with the sound of your keyboard, it's going to affect your performance, which affects the song, which affects the audience reaction. If on the other hand you're not really bothered by the sound, but sometimes you just think "it would probably be nice to have a better Leslie sound," then I think it's worth making the tradeoff for simplicity, convenience, and reliability.

 

I kept downsizing my guitar rig over the years. Every downsizing streamlined the performance by 50% more, for a 5% hit in sound options. I played better with a streamlined performance, which made the sound issue pretty much moot.

[Dr88s]

If on the other hand you're not really bothered by the sound, but sometimes you just think "it would probably be nice to have a better Leslie sound," then I think it's worth making the tradeoff for simplicity, convenience, and reliability.

 

This would describe my situation and is an important distinction.

 

[CowboyNQ]

There are always tradeoffs involved. As KuruPrionz points out, there's more than sound vs. convenience. There's reliability, setup time, teardown time, maintenance, etc

So true. I"d add financial cost to this equation too, including fuel, freight and backline hire.

[Adan]

I'm rarely bothered by less than amazing sounds on a live gig. Hearing myself the way I'd like to sound on a recording has very little to do with how I play. In some situations I'm lucky to hear myself at all!

 

Much more important is having the right feel on the keys, and having a finger-to-ear connection.

 

My ideal set up is a weighted keyboard for pianos, a waterfall for organ (dual manual would be nice but also messes with the ergonomics), and then 1-3 synths. One voice (at a time) per keyboard, no octave shifts. The point of this is not so much achieving perfectly authentic sounds, but simplifying my thought process so that there is no extra thinking in deciding where my hands go for each octave of each sound.

 

Every compromise from the ideal is a further hurdle to spontaneity. But I make those compromises all the time.

[KeyMoe]

For me in a gigging situation it's mostly about sound versus convenience, within reason. The sound I am getting out of my rig is more for me than anyone else.

Makes me feel good when my rig is sounding how I want. Especially since I solely use IEMs.

[Bosendorphen]

I agree on bar gigs and particularly quick get up - play- get off showcase type gigs. I've used just a Numa Compact 2 for the last two years and since we added an electric violinist (who plays through effects) I have less lead work to do since he covers string, brass, guitar and even flute lines quite well. So the Numa with programmed splits and layers is quite enough and I really like the action. I've occasionally added my Mellotron Micro but that's no major schlep.

[brenner13]

I play better on instruments that I think sound better. However I don"t haul six keyboards and four amps to gigs anymore either. Convenience now has me gigging nearly all sounds with MODX7 and Numa Compact2. Super lightweight rig that does everything adequate to quite well. Still craving a better Hammond experience...about to pounce on a Viscount Legend Module if my bands can secure a few more decent gigs in 2020.