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Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! #3019769 12/17/19 01:06 AM
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Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy!

It's been a long time. My old turntable broke well over a year ago, and I finally decided to get a new one. I didn't get top-of-the-line. I just wanted something that had anti-skate, USB, and a phono output. I got a Music Hall USB-1 for about $200 by the advice of a sales rep at Crutchfield.

I know there are different kinds of distortion with digital and analog vinyl. Is one better than the other? Depends on what kind of distortion you want. Both color the sound differently and neither one sounds like a good Tascam, Studer or Ampex studio machine.

So I pulled a random LP out of the pile which happened to be "The Baddest Turrentine" by the great tenor sax player, Stanley Turrentine with an all-star cast of the finest jazz men of the 1970s. I have this on CD as well.

As soon as the needle dropped, I was in ecstasy. BIG, FAT, WARM sax tones, round acoustic Ron Carter bass sound, mellow George Benson, Eric Gale, Cornell Dupree jazz guitar and so on for all the other great musicians. The CD version has an unrealistic edge on all the instruments.

https://www.discogs.com/Stanley-Turrentine-The-Baddest-Turrentine/release/695940

I don't care what anybody says, I like analog better.

But I'll probably still listen to the CD more often, because of convenience. And my treasured LPs will last longer if I only play them when I go for serious listening.

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Bob "Notes" Norton
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Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3019772 12/17/19 01:39 AM
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If your CD was an early vinyl-to-CD conversion, lots of those early CDs sounded really bad - harsh, way trebly, brittle.

A good vinyl pressing of good material played on a decent system can sound great - like it's got a sweet syrup poured all over it.

It's not accurate like CDs can be accurate - but sometimes a little blurring makes us all a little easier to look at smile

nat

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3019773 12/17/19 01:45 AM
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Quote
The CD version has an unrealistic edge on all the instruments


Here's analog's dirty little secret: If people mastered digital the way they mastered analog, it would sound like analog smile

Seriously. Analog imposed constraints on sound reproduction that, when respected, gave that "analog" sound. Basically, with analog you're re-discovering dynamic range, no hyped treble, and no hyped bass. You had to respect those constraints, or the test pressing would be rejected. If you put the same kind of treble on vinyl that people put on CDs, that +20 dB RIAA treble curve would make the record unreproducible.

My next "non-me" project is mastering for vinyl - a collection of jazz songs written/sung by Martha Davis (the Motels). It's her, piano, and acoustic bass. I can't wait! She was lucky to find someone old enough to know how vinyl was mastered smile

BTW Notes - I did session work in NYC in the 70s, and some of the people from Stuff had been hired on a couple gigs. Cornell Dupree was amazing, I was so sad to hear when he died. Gordon Edwards blew my mind on bass - he's a big guy, just sat down and played bass with a perfect touch. I learned more watching him for a few hours than I would ever have gotten from going to music school. Richard Tee wasn't called on to do anything fancy, but whenever he played, it was tasteful and he was just a cheerful, nice guy. Those were the days! I never regretted dropping out of college to get a real education.

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3019809 12/17/19 12:19 PM
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In addition to the mastering that Craig wrote about - absolutely correct - recording and production was different in the original vinyl days, as were listeners. Because of a limited number of mixer channels, and later, recording tracks, mixes were less complex. The emphasis was on musical blend rather than extreme detail of every instrument.

And people listened that way, too. If there was a distraction from the aural input, it was to read the jacket notes while the music was playing. People listened to the RECORD rather than analyzing what kind of strings were on the guitar used for the fifth rhythm layer or the pride in hearing an edit or punch-in on a CD that was masked on the LP.

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3019817 12/17/19 01:43 PM
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I can't remember the last time I had a turntable but I have managed to hold on to a small stack of LP's, perhaps 100 or more. I suspect we'll be moving this summer so I've been trying to hold off on purchases but I look forward to getting a turntable again and listening to some records, it was a big part of my youth for sure!

Last edited by Greg Mein; 12/17/19 01:43 PM.
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3019823 12/17/19 02:16 PM
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I remember reading an article by one of the inventors of the CD 25 or 30 years after the invention. He explained the problems that were inherent in the format in terms I partially understood. I had electronics in college but it was all analog at the time and it was a loooooooong time ago.

The summary was that digital adds high harmonics that were not present in the original sound. That kind of distortion is not as obvious as say LP surface noise, but it changes the tone of many instruments.

He said they sold the format to the record companies on cost of production and materials and explained the compromise of sound to them. The labels, knowing how to sell things sold it as CD-Quality sound, (which definitely was an improvement over the then popular cassettes).

I have heard my two favorite 20th century tenor sax players live more than once, and their sax tone is not noticeably different from a good LP recording, but very noticeably smoother than any CD I've ever heard them on. I guess it must be the high harmonics added.

And I have "The Baddest Turrentine" on both CD and LP. The same mastering, the same recording session and the LP sounds much warmer and the sax tone sounds much more like Stanley.

I have heard digital recordings on the SACD format, and to my ears SACD sounds much better. Probably the higher bit rate produces a better representation, and perhaps high harmonics so high I can't hear them (that's a guess). I would have replaced all my important CDs in that format but sadly, the public didn't embrace the format and it faded away.

I've also noticed that in symphony orchestra recordings, the strings sound just fine on the CD, especially the violins. Perhaps because I don't play violin. But I do play bass, guitar, sax, drums, wind synth (which is already digital), flute, and some keys.

Turrentine yesterday, Getz goes on today, perhaps some Mark Murphy with Richie Cole too.

I never had a chance to go into a recording session with the greats that you did Craig. I wish I had. I was in the house band of a jazz jam in the late 1970s. The guitarist used to teach jazz guitar at the University of Miami and also was in Ira Sullivan's band for some time. Some truly great jazz players came to sit in, Ira Sullivan, Red Rodney, Duffy Jackson, his daddy Chubby Jackson and others. They were definitely out of my league in experience at the time, so mostly I listened, tried to learn, and played safe enough things so as not to embarrass myself.

I'll probably swoon over my LPs for a few days now (I have over 600) and then it'll just be back to being a part of what I listen to, like it was before the old turntable went belly-up.

I'm not saying analog is better, just different. If I listen to a symphony orchestra I prefer it on CD, if I listen to sax players, I prefer LP.

Notes

Last edited by Notes_Norton; 12/17/19 02:38 PM.

Bob "Notes" Norton
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Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3019850 12/17/19 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
I remember reading an article by one of the inventors of the CD 25 or 30 years after the invention. He explained the problems that were inherent in the format in terms I partially understood. I had electronics in college but it was all analog at the time and it was a loooooooong time ago.

The summary was that digital adds high harmonics that were not present in the original sound. That kind of distortion is not as obvious as say LP surface noise, but it changes the tone of many instruments.


Perhaps the biggest issue (and this might relate to what you're saying) is that distortion works differently on CDs compared to the analog world. With analog, louder sounds get more distorted. In digital, softer sounds get more distorted. With a CD's 16 bits, a signal that's 12 dB below full scale is working with approximately 14 bits of resolution. At 24 dB below, it's around 12 bits. Thankfully, we don't have situations any more like CD players using 12-bit converters (the case with many early ones!), and admittedly, 14 bits isn't too bad. But with more distortion comes more harmonics, and maybe that's the high frequencies the person was talking about.

Quote
I have heard digital recordings on the SACD format, and to my ears SACD sounds much better. Probably the higher bit rate produces a better representation, and perhaps high harmonics so high I can't hear them (that's a guess). I would have replaced all my important CDs in that format but sadly, the public didn't embrace the format and it faded away.


I agree that SACD sounded better, and I'm not a "wine snob" audiophile. I think the biggest difference with SACD was that the output filter could be extremely gentle. With the super-high clock rate, you could probably just twist a couple wires together, hang them across the output, and have enough capacitance to filter out the clock. I feel the brickwall filter used for 16-bit/44.1 kHz can't help but color the sound. Another difference is that I believe the mastering for SACD was done with greater care.

Quote
I'm not saying analog is better, just different. If I listen to a symphony orchestra I prefer it on CD, if I listen to sax players, I prefer LP.


I still think it's possible for a CD to sound like vinyl, but adding vinyl's constraints when doing CDs would probably grate against most engineer's sensibilities. We'll see how my mastering for vinyl affects the Martha Davis album project when comparing the vinyl end product with the digital master.

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3019858 12/17/19 06:51 PM
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There is a thread somewhere in the fora regarding digital and harmonics. I don't remember where I saw it.

One way to gain an understanding of what happens is to research pipe organs and how the builders found that they could create the illusion of a lower frequency bass pipe with two smaller pipes, the interaction of the frequencies creates a lower note (sub-harmonic). This was done to have a larger sound in a room that could not accomodate the longer pipes needed for bass.

The ceiling frequency of 44.1 for CDs was determined by taking the highest possible frequency that a human with perfect hearing could detect, adding a small margin for assurance and then doubling it.

What Notes is hearing is simply two higher harmonics generating a sub harmonic that is within our range of hearing.
This is the primary reason that we have A to D convertors that go up to 192khz, that is an attempt to move the problem up beyond our ability to detect it.

Takes up a ton of ones and zeros!!! Analog doesn't have a "cutoff" point in the same manner and tends to smooth these sorts of anomalies out by the time you've gotten to vinyl.

Between that effect and the other codecs, this is why .mpeg files often don't sound that great. They are the "cassette deck" of our current state.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: KuruPrionz] #3019871 12/17/19 09:15 PM
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sorry, couldn't resist grin


[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3019997 12/18/19 05:36 PM
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I still believe the most important factor in the sound quality of what any of us hear at home is the speakers.
If one spends even three times as much on a pair of stereo speakers as they spend on their amplifier, I believe the limitations of the speakers will be introducing at least 90% of the fidelity loss.
The quality of the the audio source (such as a high quality cartridge playing a high quality LP, or a CD player playing the audio CD) is perhaps equally important.

Back in the Stone Age, my freshman year of college in 1979, the guy who had the best stereo on the dorm floor had this equipment:
- an expensive ($100+) phono cartridge, in a POS turntable
- a low consumer grade Technics amp with only 15 watts RMS per channel
- a pair of gigantic 2-way speakers with 15" woofers (Gauss?) and some type of horn tweeters.

Because the speakers were so absurdly efficient, they made his 15 watt RMS per channel amp sound great.
And he could sterilize with the volume when he turned it up.

He spent his money in the right places. Most people do not.

Those who are informed enough to use an expensive cartridge are probably using excellent speakers. I wonder how much this might be shaping our discussion here.

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: harmonizer] #3020005 12/18/19 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by harmonizer
I still believe the most important factor in the sound quality of what any of us hear at home is the speakers.
If one spends even three times as much on a pair of stereo speakers as they spend on their amplifier, I believe the limitations of the speakers will be introducing at least 90% of the fidelity loss.
The quality of the the audio source (such as a high quality cartridge playing a high quality LP, or a CD player playing the audio CD) is perhaps equally important.

Back in the Stone Age, my freshman year of college in 1979, the guy who had the best stereo on the dorm floor had this equipment:
- an expensive ($100+) phono cartridge, in a POS turntable
- a low consumer grade Technics amp with only 15 watts RMS per channel
- a pair of gigantic 2-way speakers with 15" woofers (Gauss?) and some type of horn tweeters.

Because the speakers were so absurdly efficient, they made his 15 watt RMS per channel amp sound great.
And he could sterilize with the volume when he turned it up.

He spent his money in the right places. Most people do not.

Those who are informed enough to use an expensive cartridge are probably using excellent speakers. I wonder how much this might be shaping our discussion here.


Uh oh, he went there!! :- D
Great post btw.

And then, there's the room. Does it sound good or hideous?
Great speakers in a bad room or bad speakers in a great room?

I do agree, you need great speakers. And, it is probbaly best to get speakers that are optimized for the playback, studio monitors can be a bit too "honest".
Great headphones are not a bad choice either.

Great speakers in a great room is a wondrous way to listen. I am not there but I've heard it. I've heard calibrated and aligned 24 track Studer 2" tape at 30ips playing back in the control room too.
Rarified air to be certain...

Still, when I hear "Do You Love Me" by The Contours blaring out of the crap speakers in the ceiling at Goodwill, which is a nasty sounding room, it stops me in my tracks.
That's "broadcast quality" pumped into some 8" weefer / twooters and it it still rocks.


There is never enough time to be in a hurry...
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020024 12/18/19 10:19 PM
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It's always the mechanical things that have limitations. I think speakers are only about 5% efficient at best in turning amplifier power into moving air. Cartridges and mics have to be good.

I agree audiophiles are probably going to be picky enough to have a good system. But there's another factor. I have a friend who is super into vinyl, and he scoured the world for the gear that was top-of-the-line hi-fi gear in the 60s and 70s. His reasoning was that the records of that time were played back on those systems, and therefore were tailored for those systems - which meant the truest reproduction of the music would occur with the playback systems of that era.

I'm not that much into the audiophile thing, because I prefer to spend my time making music instead of listening to other people's music. So my studio sounds really good, and my listening to CDs is done over studio monitors pressed into living room use. That kind of casual approach isn't well-suited to vinyl, which if nothing else, is not a "casual" medium. My vinyl is still in great shape because I cleaned records carefully before playing, to avoid having the cartridge grind dust into the grooves. (Remember, the stylus is so tiny, that even with a gram or two of tracking force, there's still a lot of downward pressure.)

Now all I need a turntable to play them, and the interest/incentive to do so...

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020038 12/19/19 12:19 AM
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They way I see it is this:

CDs = convenience with the price distortion of harsher tonal coloration (added harmonics that don't belong there)
LPs = warmer tone with the price of surface noise and and inconvenience

For my "Home instrument Bias" of saxophone the difference is most obvious. Stan Getz, Stanley Turrentine, Zoot Sims, Scott Hamilton, Michael Brecker, Gato Barbieri, Joshua Redman, Bob Mintzer, Paul Desmond, Richie Cole and others don't sound like themselves on CD. Probably my H.I.B. has me more attuned to the nuances of saxophone tone because I constantly work on mine.

Today I put on an old LP of Gustav Holst's "The Planets". An LP I bought decades ago, before CDs. I still like the LPO/Boult interpretation, however I decided that for symphonies, the tone doesn't seem to make much difference, and the CD experience is better (no album flipping, no surface noise).

In the long run I have to say I'm glad I have both available to me.

Insights and incites by Notes

PS in my car, everything gets ripped to a 192k mp3 because while concentrating on driving I can't play close enough attention to the music and the road noise covers all the nuances anyway.


Bob "Notes" Norton
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The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Anderton] #3020089 12/19/19 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderton

Now all I need a turntable to play them, and the interest/incentive to do so...


Audio-Technica has several turntables from good entry level through budding audiophile level ($100 - $500 range). The $100 model is fine for enjoying the music on your LPs and 45s. They come with a variety of output options - direct cartridge output, RIAA equalized consumer line level output, Bluetooth, and USB digital. You must have some friends at A-T who will get you a good deal.

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Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020166 12/20/19 02:50 AM
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I'm a musician. I have a nice Marantz integrated amp, but I use old PA speakers (I've got a set of top-of-the-line Carvins with 15" woofers).

I'm still in analog heaven, but I'll go back to the convenience of my CDs soon and only crank up the turntable for special occasions.

When I get some time I have a few more LPs that I want to make digital copies of. It's the real reason why i bought the new turntable and why I didn't buy a high-end turntable.

Insights and incites by Notes


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The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020440 12/22/19 02:42 AM
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Lately, I've been on a vinyl resurgence, and thought I needed a new stylus...
But, I recently listened to a really clean disc, and realized that I have a bunch of dirty vinyl, or, maybe, just really worn, but, I have some hard to replace items that I'd like to try cleaning.
I have a Discwasher pad, but have been using RO water to clean before play.

I've seen videos of people soaking records in tubs of water, or scrubbing with dish soap...

Any tips for cleaning that might be less...of that?

Thanks. smile



I'm a lot more like I am now than I was when I got here.




Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020448 12/22/19 03:51 AM
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I would also be interested in tips. Years ago I had a pad that was sort like a wooden handle and cushioned part covered in fabric with a filling port for some sort of fluid designed to to both clean and remove static. Don't know whatever happened to that.

Back in the day I had one of those fancy linear tracking turntables that would actually sense tracks by optically looking at the grooves for the silence between tracks and you could program it to play tracks in any order. Too much technology, it crapped out and was dead in the water. Years later I was lucky to find a nice Technics direct drive turntable at a pawn shop for $50. The Ortofon cartridge on it was worth more than that. Been using it ever since.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020485 12/22/19 03:36 PM
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I did some searching and saw things as varied as special high-tech tools down to rubbing WD40. I'd avoid both extremes.

I dug out an old disk that didn't really matter that much to me. It's a symphonic piece that I have on CD. I put it on without cleaning and it skipped in less than 10 seconds. I probably hadn't played this one in 20 years. As much as I like the sound of saxophones on vinyl, symphonies are fine on CD, I don't hear that much difference and I don't have to flip it in the middle. So this was the prime example to experiment with.

So I used water and the tiniest drop of Dawn dish-washing liquid. I chose Dawn because it is the one recommended for my coated plastic eyeglass lenses. It's supposed to be gentle on plastic.

I rubbed in circular motions with the pad of my index finger rinsed, gently dried and then allowed it to completely air dry before playing.

It played all the way through but with a lot of surface noise. Per the advice I read on the 'net, I played it again and the noise was minimal.

I have no idea if this is the preferred way to clean a record or not.

Any input pro or con is welcome.

Insights and incites by Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton
Owner, Norton Music http://www.nortonmusic.com
Style and Fake disks for Band-in-a-Box
The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020502 12/22/19 07:28 PM
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Years ago we used to spray static guard on a cloth and use it to wipe the record.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020503 12/22/19 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
I would also be interested in tips. Years ago I had a pad that was sort like a wooden handle and cushioned part covered in fabric with a filling port for some sort of fluid designed to to both clean and remove static. Don't know whatever happened to that.

That's what I used as well (it did a great job), along with an anti-static zapper that had polonium inside. Good thing I didn't eat it smile

Originally Posted by Notes_Norton

So I used water and the tiniest drop of Dawn dish-washing liquid. I chose Dawn because it is the one recommended for my coated plastic eyeglass lenses. It's supposed to be gentle on plastic.

I've always understood that to be the preferred way to wash records, and that washing does make a difference.

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020520 12/22/19 09:44 PM
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I SO do NOT need to hear this. complain

I just bought a boxed set of Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac so I could get the 5.1mixes. Came with a vinyl copy.

Even my wife could see the danger. shudder

dB

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Dave Bryce] #3020525 12/22/19 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Bryce
I SO do NOT need to hear this. complain

I just bought a boxed set of Fleetwood Mac Fleetwood Mac so I could get the 5.1mixes. Came with a vinyl copy.

Even my wife could see the danger. shudder

dB

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020600 12/23/19 12:26 PM
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Here are a couple of pretty good articles about record cleaners:
Manual Cleaning Tools and Solutions
Record Cleaning Machines $500 and up

This is an old but very comprehensive article on the subject of cleaning phonograph records.

And the Record Doctor V is a semi-automatic wash-and-vacuum record cleaner that's had some good reviews.

I'll keep my eye out for new and exciting record cleaners at CES coming up in a couple of weeks.



Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Anderton] #3020678 12/23/19 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderton
an anti-static zapper that had polonium inside.


The most fun you could have with those was to point and shoot at someone in panty hose. I’ll leave you to guess the rest wink

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3020692 12/24/19 01:03 AM
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Notes_Norton Offline OP
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pantyhose zapping with polonium????

If there is a UTube video of this it's probably NSFW grin


Bob "Notes" Norton
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Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: davedoerfler] #3021006 12/26/19 08:43 PM
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H
hard truth Offline
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Originally Posted by davedoerfler
sorry, couldn't resist grin


[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]


The expense and inconvenience are part of the appeal of the vinyl revival.

An excerpt from my article at http://www.oranjproductions.com/vinyl.htm

"..What annoys me is that the vinyl fad is based on elitism and misinformation. Misinformation that has convinced far too many people to pay twice as much for a vinyl record than for the CD. That higher price for vinyl provides higher profit margins for sellers and incentivizes giving more space to vinyl in the stores.

This trend is not harmless. The popularity of vinyl is harmful to the cause of getting more good music to the masses, because it reduces opportunities for musicians to get their records into stores. The few remaining record stores now have half (or fewer) of the number of titles in their stores because new vinyl releases takes up so much space. This results in less variety and choice for consumers. I used to be able to find most of the titles I was seeking during a trip to a record store, now the odds of finding the title I want is slim. As a result, I have to buy online, taking the money out of our local economy and helping strengthen the bigger internet retailers. I am also concerned that in the long run the vinyl record fad will kill off what is left of the brick and mortar record business..."

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3021010 12/26/19 09:13 PM
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Mike Rivers Offline
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I've seen a few articles lately about an artist choosing to release his new material as streaming or vinyl only, no CDs. These, of course, are independent artists, so they're exercising their independence. In a world where radio is no longer the primary way of introducing new music and new artists, I suppose it can work out OK. Most of these are non-touring artists, so they won't be carrying along a box of LPs to sell at gigs.

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: hard truth] #3021020 12/26/19 10:11 PM
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Anderton Offline
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Originally Posted by hard truth

An excerpt from my article at http://www.oranjproductions.com/vinyl.htm


I read the whole article, it's excellent. I do think another reason people think vinyl is "better" is because you can't get away with the same kind of extreme mastering that you can with digital.

As to record stores, I think vinyl may be the last gasp of people not wanting to give up physical media entirely. I used to go to the Saturn store in Frankfurt (sort of a German "best Buy") and listen to CDs for hours, then buy my favorites. In the mid-90s IIRC the shelf space for CDs kept getting reduced, and replaced with video games. There were fewer and fewer CDs every year. I don't think vinyl is taking over space that would have gone to CDs...it's taking over space that would have gone to something else anyway. In the local big box stores, DVDs took over CD space, and it's just a matter of time before DVDs disappear, too.

Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3021105 12/27/19 03:26 PM
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The inconvenience is a factor, surface noise another, but for some things (not all) it sounds better to me.

Especially saxophone tone. Being that sax is my primary instrument, and has been for most of my life (so far), I'm picky about tone. More particular than the average listener.

So if I'm going to seriously listen to a Stan Getz, Stanley Turrentine, Charlie Parker or Paul Desmond album, I'll put it on the turntable. The tone is much more realistic. If I am only going to casually listen to the same thing I'll play the CD. I've heard all of these players except Parker in person, and their tone is much truer on vinyl.

For symphonies, I prefer listening to them on CD. No surface noise, I don't have to flip, and perhaps because I'm not a violinist, the CD doesn't seem to affect the tone of the strings much.

MP3s on a digital walkman in the car because with road noise, it really doesn't matter.

For me, one format isn't the only answer.

Insights and incites by Notes


Bob "Notes" Norton
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Re: Vinyl, LPs, Turntables Oh Boy! Listening to analog is joy! [Re: Notes_Norton] #3021110 12/27/19 03:55 PM
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There are six bands that I love above all others: The Beatles, Rush, Black Sabbath, Yes, Genesis (70s vintage), and Queen. I have all of their albums (and many more by countless other bands) on wonderful, pristine, audiolicious CDs

But you know what I'm thinking of doing? I'm seriously considering buying vinyl versions of 'The Six'. Not to listen to. Oh no. CD is way superior to vinyl. I just want to handle the vinyl, read the liner notes, follow the printed lyrics, lose myself in the full-size artwork....whilst listening to the music on CD

I'm probably insane. Or am I?


Edit: I had 'The Six' on vinyl, but sold my entire collection to a DJ several years ago. Vinyl was so un-hip at the time...

Last edited by BMD; 12/27/19 03:58 PM.
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