Famous virtual sax riffs with SWAM and breath controller

[nordstrom]

This is really good. He has good technique.

 

[video:youtube]

[Mark_OA]

The Audio Modeling instruments are great, especially played with enough controllers for all articulation options. Am looking forward to their brass instruments which should be released anytime now.

 

I like Claudio's YouTube video's. The man has such energy and enthusiasm.

[El Lobo]

Pretty good simulation. Would be acceptable to most non-sax players. Real sax players (i'm one) hear the synthetic sound right away. I have a Roland Aerophone AE-10 (wind controller). Some of the people who have this digital sax-like instrument use it with the SWAM sax sounds and like it.

 

If you want a really good sax sound and you don't play sax, hire a real sax player.

[Dave Bryce]

If you want a really good sax sound and you don't play sax, hire a real sax player.

 

dB

 

[Threadslayer]

Wow. You guys are a lot more discriminating than I am. I thought he sounded pretty damned good. Maybe not for a recording, but more than realistic enough for a live band in a club - maybe in addition to a real sax player to round out a section. I used to play a Yamaha WX5 controller into a VL70m, but I never got it sounding that good.

[PianoMan51]

The question I have for myself (and I own a Rise49 and SWAM viola) is where could I actually use this?

 

The sound realism is maybe 85%, because it"s modeled, and dead-on real phrasing is tough. Okay. So I wouldn"t use this where the sax is 'the" lead instrument. I wouldn"t use it in a bare mix. But it might add something when inside a mix that could cover up the deficiencies. After all this is going on in every film that has CGI effects.

 

But even if the sound were100% on, I wouldn"t use it in a jazz band. Just like I wouldn"t use a harpsichord VST in a baroque orchestra. Now we"re talking about the aesthetics of particular music scenes. I imagine that the SWAM instruments could have been big on stage in the 80s. But those days are gone. Rock bands are moving into the past, like jazz combos and big bands have gone before. In a live setting I would rather hear a guitar play the Baker Street lick than a synth trying to sound like a sax. Or a rich distorted B3 playing the Stevie Wonder horn lines in Superstition. YMMV.

 

For music that is newer than rock, has there been a bifurcation, where some is completely acoustic (think Live From Here) and some has electronics with no attempt to sound like acoustic instruments? If so, I don"t see a place to use these hyper-realistic synthetic acoustic VSTs in those scenes.

 

Other than my studio when I want to have a blast by myself.

[Mark_OA]

Audio Modeling finally announced the release of their new brass bundle.

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

[video:youtube]

 

I'm a trumpet and flügelhorn player for 30-some years and to be honest, these instruments sound fake. The dirty attach on the trumpet sounds nasty and sounds virtually the same among all 3 bundles. As with Pianoteq however, although the sound could be way off or unrealistic, the articulation options for these instruments is well worth it. Mixing these with sample based instruments will get you a long way. I've pre-ordered the bundle. The pre-order discount is probably the highest discount Audio Modeling will ever give you, so if you're interested I would take it now.

 

Mark

[El Lobo]

I'm a trumpet and flügelhorn player for 30-some years and to be honest, these instruments sound fake.

I think the thing is that if you play the instrument being modeled, you hear the fakeness. But if you don't play the instrument, you're pretty happy with the sound. I'm a sax player so the saxes sound fake. You're a trumpet player so the trumpets sound fake. But to us non-trumpet players, the trumpet sounds are close enough to the real thing that we'll accept it as a trumpet. I imagine it's the same with all instruments being modeled â if you play that instrument, it's fake; if you don't play that instrument, it's pretty damn good.

[henryque]

I'm a trumpet and flügelhorn player for 30-some years and to be honest, these instruments sound fake.

I think the thing is that if you play the instrument being modeled, you hear the fakeness. But if you don't play the instrument, you're pretty happy with the sound. I'm a sax player so the saxes sound fake. You're a trumpet player so the trumpets sound fake. But to us non-trumpet players, the trumpet sounds are close enough to the real thing that we'll accept it as a trumpet. I imagine it's the same with all instruments being modeled â if you play that instrument, it's fake; if you don't play that instrument, it's pretty damn good.

 

You are probably right, but the fact remains that SWAM is by far the best approximation to the real thing. It is very enjoyable to play, particularly when using the breath controller as shown in the first video, and of course also affordable, unlike "hiring a real sax player" as also suggested (I assume that wasn't a serious comment, just a provocation)

[El Lobo]

... also affordable, unlike "hiring a real sax player" as also suggested (I assume that wasn't a serious comment, just a provocation)

Uh, no. The SWAM saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor, bari) cost $250. I have all 4 horns. I'll play on your recording or gig for $200.

 

[Mark_OA]

... also affordable, unlike "hiring a real sax player" as also suggested (I assume that wasn't a serious comment, just a provocation)

Uh, no. The SWAM saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor, bari) cost $250. I have all 4 horns. I'll play on your recording or gig for $200.

 

So would I BUT: the investment for the VST is one time and I would need to hire you every time for $200...

 

And you're right about the fakeness and yes, it's obvious for those of us who play the actual instrument, but for a lot of people listening to the music it won't matter and for that, these digital fascimilies will do and come in handy. Recording and mixing my actual instruments cost me a lot more time than using the VSTs and for mock-ups or demo''s, that's worth a lot and good enough.

[Moonglow]

This thing sounds pretty good. While I would prefer to play with a sax player, I can see how it might appeal to a keyboard player that needs to do the occasional sax part...a situation that applies to a band I"m in. I don"t much care for the sax programs in the romplers I play out with, so I"ve been using a synthesized Steve Winwood type of patch for those tunes. The SWAM program seems to be a solid upgrade, but definitely some cash for just a handful of songs. I also don"t like the visual of the headset/mouthpiece and wonder what it would sound like without it.

[mate stubb]

I also don"t like the visual of the headset/mouthpiece and wonder what it would sound like without it.

 

I wouldn't bother. Having had a PLG-150 card with a breath controller in my S-90, I can say that without the breath controller, you might as well be playing rompler sax.

[analogholic]

Aha...so It´s here the SWAM sounds ended up...had no idea about Audio Modeling company....

 

 

But Sample Modeling also have the same brass instruments....albeit in Kontakt version...anyone knows how these compare regarding sound?

 

https://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products.php

 

 

Sample modeling have some interesting added features for the trumpet and trombone:

 

1.New Early Reflections algorithm. A new ER algorithm exploits the directional information of multi-microphone anechoic recordings to recover the full, rich timbre of the instrument along with its radiation pattern, adding proper virtual space to the anechoic sound.

 

2.Virtual Soundstage. This new feature allows precise positioning of the instruments in a "dimensionless" virtual space, using early reflections, pre-delay, convoluted panning and perceived distance algorithms, even in real time.

This will set you free to add a further suitable acoustic environment, without incurring multiple-ambience issues. This can be carried out within the same Kontakt Player, which provides a high quality convolution reverb.

 

3.Real time Timbral Shaping. This revolutionary new feature adds a virtually infinite timbral variety to sample-based instruments, by acting on the amplitude of individual harmonics, or groups of harmonics, even in real time. This is not a graphic equalizer; the controlling bars are not assigned to fixed frequencies, but to the first 10 harmonics of the played note. As a consequence, the affected frequencies vary with the pitch of the note. So, rising, for example, bar #1 will boost the fundamental frequency (first harmonic) of each note played, yielding a rounder sound. Rising bars #3, #4, #5 will increase the intensity of the corresponding harmonics for a more "nasal" sound, etc.

 

4. Microtuning. Another new feature is microtuning, applicable to individual keys even in real time, to better cope with non-tempered scales, so essential in, for example, Middle Eastern and Asian music.

 

5. Expression Mapping. User-drawn rescaling of the expression CC allows better control of the dynamics, particularly with such input devices like breath or wind controllers.

 

6. Breathy Attacks. Simply play at very low dynamics and lowest velocity, and you will get a very realistic breathy noise preceding the tone of the trombone.

 

7. "For Unison Ensemble" IR. A specially devised Impulse Response, markedly reducing the phasing which may occur when several instruments are driven from the same MIDI track (i.e. in unison).

 

8. Unison Ensemble Multi. Special consideration has been given to creation of realistic ensembles from solo instruments, whether driven from separate MIDI tracks, or when playing unison. An advanced "ensemble maker" has been developed, affecting timing, static and dynamic pitch evolution, phase, response to dynamics, pitchbend, velocity, portamento time, in such a way that even if driven from a single MIDI source, each instrument will sound as if played by a different musician.

A ready-to-use Multi, including three specially devised trombones, the ensemble maker, and an appropriate convolution reverb, suitable for unison playing straight out of the box, is included in the package.

 

The unison modes and expression mapping are what interest me most...can´t find anything about these things on the Audio Modeling version...

[henryque]

I also don"t like the visual of the headset/mouthpiece and wonder what it would sound like without it.

 

I wouldn't bother. Having had a VL-1 card with a breath controller in my S-90, I can say that without the breath controller, you might as well be playing rompler sax.

 

I can confirm this. I have several SWAM and Samplemodeling VIs. They are both good but what really makes them shine is the breath controller (I've had one made by TEControl for several years and highly recommend it).

[dongna]

I wouldn't bother. Having had a PLG-150 card with a breath controller in my S-90, I can say that without the breath controller, you might as well be playing rompler sax.

+1

[retrokeys]

The whole question of "fakeness" is really interesting to me. As players we "hear" one thing; as audience members, another. I put the quotation marks in because as one plays, there is much more involved than just audio. We get involved in the instrument. Can't help it. I have an acoustic piano, a Baldwin spinet, and a 1959 Hammond C3 and in the past have owned and/or played Wulitzer and Rhodes and a Clavinet C. I currently have an XK5 and a Nord Electro 6. When I'm playing these various instruments I can tell the difference. Yet, if someone else plays them and I'm just listening. things get a bit more confusing. Mic all these instruments and put them through a PA, less distinction. Record, process and put in a mix and it gets very hard to tell. Don't get me wrong. For years, as numerous band mates could tell you, I have resisted playing horn or string parts on keyboards largely because such would take me away from keyboard parts. I too have said...if you want a sax part, hire a sax player. Yet, in my heart of hearts were I to be wrting and producing jingles again, I would love to have some of these programs. What might be interesting here is for a panel of real horn players be involved in a double blind test of technology versus real on recordings as observe the results....I've always enoyed the clonehwheel shoot outs. Time to expand the game.

 

[nordstrom]

Uh, no. The SWAM saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor, bari) cost $250. I have all 4 horns. I'll play on your recording or gig for $200.

 

What about travel/accomodation costs?

 

[Josh Paxton]

I play in one band where I could see myself using this to step out and join the horn section for a couple tunes, IF (and only if) I could play it from a wireless keytar. Of course that would require me to get a keytar and a laptop rig, so it's probably not gonna happen, but it's a nice idea.

[RandyFF]

I agree with what has been said about rompler sax being unconvincing and fake sounding. That is until I got a Korg Pa1000. The expression that I can achieve from simply playing is astounding to me, same goes with most of the brass, drums and orchestral sounds.

 

I played sax in high school, and have been around plenty of live sax players, so I no there's no substitute for the real thing, they're loud and honky, and capable of a super wide range of sounds! And in the past, the efforts by a keyboard to pull off a sax part by a rompler was pretty limited. I don't know for sure but have heard that with a board like the Yamaha Motifs, they gave you the tools to fashion a full sound, whereas in the arranger boards they have already done the leg work and give you the full sound from the get go, along with various articulations that can be accessed with various top panel buttons, AT, velocity, MW, etc.

 

Then you started getting things like Roland Supernatural sounds that had more of those 'extras' built into the sound, and these days I don't know how much of a distinction there is between a stage piano / workstation, and an arranger. Other than the Pa1000, I haven't had any of the latest generation of boards, I imagine the sound quality has gone up compared to what I know from my Motif XS.

 

I do know that, even without engaging any of the growl / twang / etc. articulations with buttons or whatever, I get amazingly great woodwind and brass sounds just using velocity and AT. I still feel self-conscious playing woodwinds and brass on a keyboard, esp in an exposed setting, but now it's not because it sounds cheezy or unconvincing to me.

 

I'm sure there are many of you that would find fault with the sound quality for woodwinds / brass / orchestral / drums that I'm talking about with the Pa1000, but to my ears it sounds freakin' beautiful, full, and rich. But no, it's no substitute for the SWAM app, but I was wondering why the breath controller couldn't be substituted for a volume / swell pedal in situations where you're not trying to convince a sax player that the sound is decent-

 

Randy

[hardware]

These dogs don"t hunt.

 

The only reason Section sounds work is the intensity of the music, like Bruno Mars, etc.

I can get away with Strings& Horns, strings are actually better section wise, because it fits in a mix.

 

These solo riffs are great for learning how to do bee bop because you can follow along with Charlie Parker type tunes and you know you"re nailing it when you don"t hear him.

I did this with samples from Gigastudio years ago, but it worked because the sounds go by so quick.

With PhysMod as a lead/solo instrument the faster you play the better.

 

Of course I spent years in big brass bands and in Jazz Quintets.

I"d do it all over again for 50 bucks a night too.

 

[Mark_OA]

There's another example posted on AM's YouTube:

 

[video:youtube]

 

This is a perfect example how to use the SWAM instruments and how not to.

 

The layering and tutti parts sound fine and works as long as you mix them properly. The trumpet solo starting at 0:09 however sounds aweful, as does the alto sax following it.

 

Mark

[PianoMan51]

There's another example posted on AM's YouTube:

 

[video:youtube]

 

This is a perfect example how to use the SWAM instruments and how not to.

 

The layering and tutti parts sound fine and works as long as you mix them properly. The trumpet solo starting at 0:09 however sounds aweful, as does the alto sax following it.

 

Mark

I"m surprised how bad that sounded (IMHO of course.) Some of the tutti sections sounded more like an accordion with closely tuned musette.

 

[DrSynth]

The discussions here mirror those those we had on the VL1 dev team back in the early 90"s. THE most important aspect of a 'modeled instrument illusion" is idiomatic playing. Timbre is actually second, though if you"re not a natural player of the instrument being modeled you will focus on timbre first.

 

Thus, since Yamaha abandoned the VL technology, the shift has been to sample based engines with performance modeling. The prior VST"s that do this with sophisticated sample switching has gotten quite capable with the current state of computer horsepower, even without any actual acoustic modeling going on per se. And since the users of these are not typically the natural instrument players, the timbral accuracy makes you overlook the still missing articulative acousical nuances.

 

This is where the SWAM stuff is interesting, combining acoustic and performance modeling. I have the Strings bundle, their pure modeled engine. It"s advantage over the VL1 is the implementation of performance modeling in processing the note input â whatever algorithms/AI they have going on to enhance the keyboard input articulations and phrasing to the idiom of the 'instrument" is pretty cool. Plus the timbres are noticeably improved as well, likely due to better resonator modeling. Going back and reprogramming some VL1 violins I"ve got a few that are very close to the SWAM violins in timbre, but if you can"t nail the violin phrasing and articulations from the keyboard, SWAM plays better.

 

The SWAM reed and brass are a little different and use samples for the driver portion of the model, so to what degree they interact with the resonator part is unknown as you can"t get under the hood of the model. I assume its a hybrid of typical performance based sample switching with realtime resonator modeling which would give advantages in timbral performance nuances compared to sample performance switching alone.

 

IMHO the difference in market success of the VL1 vs the VL70M was less the $$ but that the VL70M was developed focused on wind controller players. We did new voicing with L.A. orchestra/session guys playing their instruments side by side with them playing the VL70 emulations on WX controllers to improve the behavior of the sounds, and it made a big difference.

 

Thus a lot of the 'illusion" as it were comes down to controllers - a keyboard is a lousy controller for reed, brass and string modeled instruments, even with fancy AI between the input and the model. As good as your chops may be, playing a reed model on a wind controller will sound more accurate than from a keyboard. The Yamaha VL Big Band at the 1997 NAMM show is a prime example of natural brass and reed players in action. Claudio is no slouch as a player, but controlling the SWAM reeds with a WX could take it into the uncanny valley of instrument simulation*.

 

Ultimately, while this is all fun to explore & deconstruct, my preferred application of modeling is creating acoustic instrument expressivity and nuance in new and different timbral spaces.

 

Manny

 

*. except, as those noted above in the thread that it"s 'never good enough' for the natural instrument _you_ play⦠though I have seen that opinion get more grey when we"ve tweaked and personalized the VL models for a particular WX players style.

[El Lobo]

I"m surprised how bad that sounded (IMHO of course.) Some of the tutti sections sounded more like an accordion with closely tuned musette.

I agree. I thought of accordion when I heard this.

 

[El Lobo]

IMHO the difference in market success of the VL1 vs the VL70M was less the $$ but that the VL70M was developed focused on wind controller players. We did new voicing with L.A. orchestra/session guys playing their instruments side by side with them playing the VL70 emulations on WX controllers to improve the behavior of the sounds, and it made a big difference.

 

Thus a lot of the 'illusion" as it were comes down to controllers - a keyboard is a lousy controller for reed, brass and string modeled instruments, even with fancy AI between the input and the model. As good as your chops may be, playing a reed model on a wind controller will sound more accurate than from a keyboard. The Yamaha VL Big Band at the 1997 NAMM show is a prime example of natural brass and reed players in action. Claudio is no slouch as a player, but controlling the SWAM reeds with a WX could take it into the uncanny valley of instrument simulation*..

Agreed. Wind instrument emulations are much better when played on a wind controller. I have a VL70m and WX. I don't play it anymore, as I now have a Roland Aerophone AE-10. I haven't used the SWAM horns on it but those who have really like the sounds they get. I've decided not to go further in that direction, though, and to focus more on playing my real sax. And to play keyboard sounds on my keyboard.

 

[analogholic]

Nobody?

 

Swam (Audio Modeling)

 

VS

 

Kontakt (Sample Modeling)

 

Anybody tried both brass libraries, aka trumpet, trombone, tuba & French horn?

[Mark_OA]

Anybody tried both brass libraries, aka trumpet, trombone, tuba & French horn?

 

Ehm, nobody in the world has tried them both, as the Audio Modeling Brad's libraries haven't been released yet. You'll at least have to wait until February 2020 for that.

 

[analogholic]

Anybody tried both brass libraries, aka trumpet, trombone, tuba & French horn?

 

Ehm, nobody in the world has tried them both, as the Audio Modeling Brad's libraries haven't been released yet. You'll at least have to wait until February 2020 for that.

 

 

 

Hahaha...my mistake...sorry

[henryque]

a keyboard is a lousy controller for reed, brass and string modeled instruments, even with fancy AI between the input and the model. As good as your chops may be, playing a reed model on a wind controller will sound more accurate than from a keyboard.

 

And that is why a breath controller is absolutely fantastic in combination with a keyboard and SWAM instruments. In my opinion, better than a wind controller.