Velocity Control on Synths

[Markyboard]

Why is velocity control on synths not only OK but pretty much expected and even the norm? I know it can be very expressive and comes naturally to those who grew up on piano but...

 

1) Are we playing synths (non-piano like sounds) more like pianos because we tend to automatically assign velocity to volume and filter control?

2) Have we forgotten the volume pedal and the different approach it brings to playing a synth? I know many of us use expression pedals but I'm guessing they're used in addition to velocity control - at least for me.

3) Why is the organ treated differently in this regard and why not use velocity on clone-wheels when it's available? Does anyone here use velocity to bring out different drawbars? Seem like a natural application but my gut tells me very few take advantage of this or even frown on it. I'm going to give this a try just to experiment.

 

I started thinking about this reading the Osmose thread which brings more parameters under finger control. Don't get me wrong, I love this idea along with standard velocity which I use all the time. Except on synths that don't have it - then I use pedals. In fact it got me thinking that maybe I should turn off velocity control on some of my Voyager patches. I've also read comments regarding the Minimoog reissue and the upcoming Behringer Poly D where people wish velocity routing didn't require a patch cable. Seems like kind of a strange request for a Minimoog unless someone wants to use velocity more often than not.

 

[stoken6]

Interesting topic. I used to enjoy switching rotary sim with aftertouch - not true to the heritage, but useful if you're playing:

- Piano+organ split

- Standing

- And need control of sustain pedal

Half-moon is difficult to reach, and footswitch impossible.

 

Ideas for velocity control on an organ would be: switchable percussion, C/V depth, keyclick volume...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Real MC]

Neat uses for velocity control:

- route modulation to EG depth on a filter. Very nice for emulating emulating percussive sounds including guitar.

- if your synth has built-in effects, route velocity to send level such that the softer you play the more effect send.

- for ring modulation patches, try routing velocity to the pitch of the carrier or the modulator.

- route velocity to the trigger of an EG. IE for choir patches trigger the EG to bend pitch when playing hard.

- pitch of the hard sync'd VCO

- PWM - alternate way to vary timbre with velocity

 

I use tricks like these on my Andromeda.

[Al Coda]

In fact it got me thinking that maybe I should turn off velocity control on some of my Voyager patches. I've also read comments regarding the Minimoog reissue and the upcoming Behringer Poly D where people wish velocity routing didn't require a patch cable. Seems like kind of a strange request for a Minimoog unless someone wants to use velocity more often than not.

 

Yes,- there are still synth patches working better w/o velocity control,- or there should be better scaling in the "lower end" of velocity control,- means:

WHEN you only want a bit of velocity control, but with excellent resolution.

Aftertouch introduces the same problem.

It often jumps from zero to whatelse and is hard to control.

I don´t think it´s matter of MIDI because it also appears when using the local kbd.-actions.

Most say 128 steps of resolution is not much,- but it´s evident most people can only recognize about 15 steps of dynamic resolution.

 

Manufacturers know and possibly that´s the reason why we´d have to pay a kingdom for a controller putting out a continuous stream of CC values, regardless which MIDI CC control number it is.

I understood most keyboard instruments use MIDI internally too,- see Kurzweil.

But most don´t make their own keybeds and rely on Fatar etc..

 

A.C.

[Theo Verelst]

It's usually a systematic approach for good synthesizers/ROMplers/workstations, where those 127 levels are mapped such that make sense to play, just like a piano, or in some other way that gives a player the feeling the response makes musical sense. The tactile experience for a piano player can be quite accurate!

 

T

[Shamanczarek]

Velocity on a MonoSynth or Organ might be of minimal use but on a PolySynth it can be put to good use. On the DX7 the velocity could be set to control the levels of different operators which could vary the dynamics of a patch. My first (and only) velocity analog PolySynth was the Oberheim Matrix 12. The Matrix has Velocity and Release Velocity. Among many other uses it is great for varying the Attack, Decay, and Filter cutoff by how you play which can add realism to String and Brass patches. Hit a chord slowly and get a softer tone with longer fade-in attack or play quickly and get a brighter tone with sharp attack. Let off a chord slowly and get a long release or let off quickly for a short release.

[The Real MC]

Velocity on a MonoSynth or Organ might be of minimal use

 

I beg to differ. I have exploited velocity to vary the transients of the filter envelope generator, which is great for gradual transition of guitar muting effects to full open. Works great on my Moog Voyager.

 

[GovernorSilver]

Why is velocity control on synths not only OK but pretty much expected and even the norm? I know it can be very expressive and comes naturally to those who grew up on piano but...

 

1) Are we playing synths (non-piano like sounds) more like pianos because we tend to automatically assign velocity to volume and filter control?

2) Have we forgotten the volume pedal and the different approach it brings to playing a synth? I know many of us use expression pedals but I'm guessing they're used in addition to velocity control - at least for me.

3) Why is the organ treated differently in this regard and why not use velocity on clone-wheels when it's available? Does anyone here use velocity to bring out different drawbars? Seem like a natural application but my gut tells me very few take advantage of this or even frown on it. I'm going to give this a try just to experiment.

 

I started thinking about this reading the Osmose thread which brings more parameters under finger control. Don't get me wrong, I love this idea along with standard velocity which I use all the time. Except on synths that don't have it - then I use pedals. In fact it got me thinking that maybe I should turn off velocity control on some of my Voyager patches. I've also read comments regarding the Minimoog reissue and the upcoming Behringer Poly D where people wish velocity routing didn't require a patch cable. Seems like kind of a strange request for a Minimoog unless someone wants to use velocity more often than not.

 

In my case, I never owned a non-velocity sensitive analog synth until much, much later, when I bought my Korg MS-20 Mini. Not having lived with a real Minimoog or other classic non-velocity sensitive synths, I never got a similarly direct experience that you and other esteemed gents who bought their first synths in the 70s had as far as using volume pedals to help manage dynamics on a synth. Thus, I was stuck with the piano mentality for a while.

 

I also didn't understand how to use envelope controls and such to compensate for lack of velocity control over volume and filter/envelope. The short video lesson series that Jordan Rudess did on the Moog Little Phatty helped the light bulbs turn on for me.

[Markyboard]

In my case, I never owned a non-velocity sensitive analog synth until much, much later, when I bought my Korg MS-20 Mini. Not having lived with a real Minimoog or other classic non-velocity sensitive synths, I never got a similarly direct experience that you and other esteemed gents who bought their first synths in the 70s had as far as using volume pedals to help manage dynamics on a synth. Thus, I was stuck with the piano mentality for a while.

 

I also didn't understand how to use envelope controls and such to compensate for lack of velocity control over volume and filter/envelope. The short video lesson series that Jordan Rudess did on the Moog Little Phatty helped the light bulbs turn on for me.

 

I think you understood the jist of this topic Paolo . This is about NOT using velocity control and how that impacts the way in which we approach playing expressively. At least that was my intent. I normally use all kinds of different destinations for velocity - no problem there. But on a mod monster like the Andromeda for example try not using velocity on anything. Use anything else. See how this affects your expressiveness. You may find your playing is much less piano oriented - at least I did.

 

The other point is using velocity on a B3 clone . Curious as to why expression is relegated to the expression pedal only and why synths are treated differently.

 

[GovernorSilver]

 

I think you understood the jist of this topic Paolo . This is about NOT using velocity control and how that impacts the way in which we approach playing expressively. At least that was my intent. I normally use all kinds of different destinations for velocity - no problem there. But on a mod monster like the Andromeda for example try not using velocity on anything. Use anything else. See how this affects your expressiveness. You may find your playing is much less piano oriented - at least I did.

 

The other point is using velocity on a B3 clone . Curious as to why expression is relegated to the expression pedal only and why synths are treated differently.

 

Joe Zawinul was the one player that I recall who talked about using volume pedals to manage synth dynamics rather than relying on velocity. He had a background in playing accordion long before he went pro, so he was already accustomed to relying on something other than velocity to manage the envelope of a sound. You can't get louder notes by whacking the keys harder on the accordion - you have to instead change how you squeeze on the thing.

 

This is the Jordan Rudess video that helped me change from a piano perspective. He explains how he practices scales with legato and tweaking envelope decay. This in turn led to me understanding what is possible by setting the envelope so that you get sound at one dynamic level upon initial key press, which can, say, swell in to a louder dynamic level if the key is held long, and how it can be controlled simply by playing stacatto notes vs. notes held longer.

 

[David Emm]

 

I largely gave up on aftertouch years ago, because it always seems to be implemented in a stingy, all-or-nothing manner. I wish it was more ingrained across the industry, but, well, you know. I've enjoyed routing aftertouch a few times, but mostly, meh. Its a finely-wrought feature on (for ex.) Kurzweils with just a smidge of programming, but below the high enders, forget it. I'd prefer tight release velocity any day. I've used control pedals for bringing in reverb, changing patches or a bit of live panning, but in truth, I've assigned most of my doings to the Y-axis of a joystick. It seems the most organic to me.

 

I relate to the piano comments, as that's my main angle of approach. I massage the velocity with care, because the best non-velocity-based synth sounds breathe more when you get the envelopes right. Timing the filter amp can = very musical pseudo-touch effects, so overlaying it with the right velocity curve feels very appealing. Gov. Silver got it right.

 

There's a lot to be said for layered routings, but I've found the right splice between piano technique and my own form of Moog-ish knob playing.

 

[CowboyNQ]

Why is velocity control on synths not only OK but pretty much expected and even the norm? I know it can be very expressive and comes naturally to those who grew up on piano but...

Not 100% in line with your original point but certainly related Mark, I've often wondered why many of the preset "synth" sounds on my rompler have velocity sensitive volume control. It drives me nuts, and I'm a piano player. I spend a good deal of my time removing it to make my synth patches "gig ready".

 

[Tom Williams]

I think one of the major evolutions of keyboards was the fortepiano. It added note-by-note expression to the polyphony that was already inherent in keyboards (slight exception: clavichord, whose volume was infinitely variable between piano and pianissimo...)

 

The piano's one lack was/is the ability to swell an already sounding note. Organs could do that. But they don't have damper pedals.

 

So along comes the modern synthesizer, which can do both, and sometimes channel or even poly aftertouch. All of these things give me as a musician multiple ways to expressively modify a sound, just as a guitarist or sax player can pluck at different locations / play a harmonic / add vibrato / do a hammer-on / squish the reed to make it squeal / let some breath escape / play marcato / yada yada yada.

 

Heck yeah! -- I use velocity wherever I can, although sometimes subliminally. On a guitar patch I might use velocity to change the initial pluck volume more than the actual "meat" of the sound; and/or I would map velocity to the obvious filter parameter.

 

On KB3 (Kurzweil clonewheel) I sometimes map velocity -- just a little -- to percussion or to keyclick volume. Why not have note-by-note expression in addition to legato / marcato playing?

 

I sometimes throw in a little velocity oomph on multi-layer pipe organ patches for the same reason. Hit a low note harder and add 16' bourdon; hit a high note harder and brighten the Mixtur IV. Why not?

 

Indeed, when I consider legacy synths, my usual reason for avoiding them is lack of aftertouch or (worse yet) velocity as a playable parameter. I want as many realtime modulation sources as possible, in order to express the most emotion possible, every time.

 

Hypocritical Disclaimer: I do play a PX-5S and I own a theremin.

[Markyboard]

Why is velocity control on synths not only OK but pretty much expected and even the norm? I know it can be very expressive and comes naturally to those who grew up on piano but...

Not 100% in line with your original point but certainly related Mark, I've often wondered why many of the preset "synth" sounds on my rompler have velocity sensitive volume control. It drives me nuts, and I'm a piano player. I spend a good deal of my time removing it to make my synth patches "gig ready".

 

That's interesting. When trying to duplicate certain sounds from familiar songs I would think this is a must. Do 3rd party "vintage" sound banks take this into account or is everything typically "enhanced" with velocity?

 

For rolling your own patches anything is fair game as long as you like the result. But after rearranging some of my foot pedals over the last couple of weeks it occurred to me that not using velocity opens up some new possibilities. Kind of like a painter (the artist kind) that decides not to use red, or maybe a certain size brush ?

 

[CowboyNQ]

Why is velocity control on synths not only OK but pretty much expected and even the norm? I know it can be very expressive and comes naturally to those who grew up on piano but...

Not 100% in line with your original point but certainly related Mark, I've often wondered why many of the preset "synth" sounds on my rompler have velocity sensitive volume control. It drives me nuts, and I'm a piano player. I spend a good deal of my time removing it to make my synth patches "gig ready".

 

That's interesting. When trying to duplicate certain sounds from familiar songs I would think this is a must. Do 3rd party "vintage" sound banks take this into account or is everything typically "enhanced" with velocity?

Very much depends on the rompler and the patch in my limited experience. As I"m a re-creator not a creator I really would prefer it if the starting point for these vintage sound emulations were velocity-less. That"s just me, maybe others love it!

[Markyboard]

 

On KB3 (Kurzweil clonewheel) I sometimes map velocity -- just a little -- to percussion or to keyclick volume. Why not have note-by-note expression in addition to legato / marcato playing?

 

I sometimes throw in a little velocity oomph on multi-layer pipe organ patches for the same reason. Hit a low note harder and add 16' bourdon; hit a high note harder and brighten the Mixtur IV. Why not?

 

Why not indeed - very cool. I'm still going to see if I can map velocity to individual drawbars. It will probably feel very strange, not the B3 experience that we're used to. Then again since I'm not really a B3 player maybe this is my calling .

 

Indeed, when I consider legacy synths, my usual reason for avoiding them is lack of aftertouch or (worse yet) velocity as a playable parameter. I want as many realtime modulation sources as possible, in order to express the most emotion possible, every time.

 

When it comes to buying a new synth I'm with you. As far as vintage synths I've never bought one. But being vintage myself I still have a few .

 

[PianoMan51]

When did velocity get added to keys? When I got out of the business in 78 all my electronic boards (organ and synth) had no velocity sensing. When I bought a DX-7 in 85 it had it and I was overjoyed.

[Adan]

When it comes to clonewheels, I'm as guilty as anyone of being trapped in the dogma of "it's got to be as close as possible to the real thing." Authenticity, as opposed to trying to do something creative and interesting with the sound, is the holy grail. When I think about it in the abstract, it seems a bit silly. But when I put my hands on a clonewheel, my brain automatically goes into that mode.

[Tusker]

I use velocity sensitivity on some synth patches and eschew them on others, particularly ones that are driven by breath control. I use pedals as well and find them very helpful. Mark raises a very important point!

 

To amplify some of the historical perspective in Tom Williams' excellent post, the modern day keyboard (as exemplified by the organs, pianos, synthesizers, etc.) is a product of the industrial revolution. Using the same mechanical technology as factories from three hundred years ago, it allows polyphony in a manner that other physical instruments (excepting some plucked and struck strings like dulcimer, lutes, harps, etc) cannot do. No other mechanical instrument interface allows as many lines of melody to be played simultaneously. In effect the primary "killer app" of the keyboard is that of being a compact orchestra, band or choir. It allows you to zoom out.

 

However in most implementations of the keyboard, the trade-off is that once a note is struck, you have very little control of micro-expression. Sure on an organ you can swell, on a synth you can pedal a filter open, bend pitch or crossfade in a different timbre. However, it's typically 1-4 things to the degree your hand or breath or pedals or lfos or envelopes can modify on the fly. It's nothing like the 10-15 degrees of freedom the human voice has, even after the note has sounded (I'll spare you an exhaustive list but here are a few examples: pitch, volume, multiple formants, fricatives, rasps, breaks, etc) Pedals, breath and left hand controls on a keyboard are not a strength but a supplement to an inherent weakness in the interface.

 

Granted, evocative music can be made with a mere 1-2 degrees of freedom. (

... and admittedly not all music needs to be evocative in the same way.

 

What should we do if we enjoy zooming in? I'd suggest that we approach the question of fine control with taste, knowing that a keyboard instruments's primary strengths are more in zooming out than zooming in. With keyboards, most of the time, more may actually be more.

[Markyboard]

Excellent post Tusker.

 

 

...knowing that a keyboard instruments's primary strengths are more in zooming out than zooming in. With keyboards, most of the time, more may actually be more.

 

Maybe...but I will not zoom out quietly.

 

[Markyboard]

When it comes to clonewheels, I'm as guilty as anyone of being trapped in the dogma of "it's got to be as close as possible to the real thing." Authenticity, as opposed to trying to do something creative and interesting with the sound, is the holy grail. When I think about it in the abstract, it seems a bit silly. But when I put my hands on a clonewheel, my brain automatically goes into that mode.

 

You"re not alone. I just took a look at B5 and while you can assign a different CC to each drawbar, velocity is only mapped to contact speed. But I should be able to map different velocity ranges to unique CCs in Reaper. I have a feeling even if I can do this I"ll wonder why I bothered

[Markyboard]

When did velocity get added to keys? When I got out of the business in 78 all my electronic boards (organ and synth) had no velocity sensing. When I bought a DX-7 in 85 it had it and I was overjoyed.

Yamaha CS80 was first followed several years later by DX-7 and Korg DW-8000 (per Google). I remember just around the release of the DX-7 thinking why would you want to dynamically control a synth links a piano? It became clear once I got the DX-7 soon after.

 

[Tom Williams]

When did velocity get added to keys? When I got out of the business in 78 all my electronic boards (organ and synth) had no velocity sensing. When I bought a DX-7 in 85 it had it and I was overjoyed.

I seemed to remember renting a Roland electric piano when I was in High School and discovering -- during choir tour -- that I could pull out the volume knob and it suddenly had velocity sensitivity. I and the other student pianist were amazed. It may have been very early, like 1976.

 

A quick Svengle turns up 1974 (my freshman year) as the earliest possible date:

 

My First Roland <- (a web link)

[Markyboard]

When it comes to clonewheels, I'm as guilty as anyone of being trapped in the dogma of "it's got to be as close as possible to the real thing." Authenticity, as opposed to trying to do something creative and interesting with the sound, is the holy grail. When I think about it in the abstract, it seems a bit silly. But when I put my hands on a clonewheel, my brain automatically goes into that mode.

 

You"re not alone. I just took a look at B5 and while you can assign a different CC to each drawbar, velocity is only mapped to contact speed. But I should be able to map different velocity ranges to unique CCs in Reaper. I have a feeling even if I can do this I"ll wonder why I bothered

 

Well I did it and posted the demo Here . Actually it"s kind of cool and when I saw the post regarding Larry Goldings" use of preset keys I immediately thought midi CCs could easily be adapted to achieve similar results.