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Another B3 technique question


Dr88s

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the triggering of the 9 tonewheels occurs separately across the travel of the keys, so if you don't press the key fully, you won't hear all 9 tonewheels (in a drawbar setting where all 9 are active, in this discussion). So a light slap/tap will sound different for drawbar setting 888888888 than a full press will. The sound also can be different from key to key, depending on how the bus bars are connected.

 

So out of curiosity, what order are they triggered in (e.g., lower harmonics first?), or is it random? (Hammond ignoramus here, sorry.)

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The problem is that the left handed slap just sounds like dissonant random keys being played rather than a percussive pop. Sven had explained it's not possible on a clone; I was hoping that I could at least recreate some semblance of this.

 

Are any of you able to do this on a clone? If not, I could also try split my Nord and recreate the same drawbar settings for both and try play the rhythmic pattern on the same 'notes' with both hands...

 

I do this sort of thing on various clones, and while it's not quite as much fun as on a real console, it still "works" with no problem for me. Things to bear in mind: make sure your left hand is in the right range; make sure the slaps are really short; and don't hit too many notes at once.

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The order is not random, but it's not consistent, either. I forget what order the busbars are in, but when you take into account things like momentum and key contact flex, there is a lot of entropy.

 

Dr88s -- if you are hearing random keys instead of percussive noises, chances are you either pulling too many (high) drawbars, or are playing notes that are too long.

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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Dr88, this trick is very feasible on a clone. As long as it's a fast action. (I wouldn't be inspired to play those rhythmic chords on a weighted piano-type action.) Even better if it triggers high and not at the bottom of the key travel.

It also sounds great on Clavinet or other simple, fast action keyboards.

 

You could start by playing the same chord an octave apart. If it sounds too full in the left hand, just drop one of the notes.

 

Bfields, regarding the order in which the harmonics trigger, on my four Hammonds no two notes are exactly the same although there are certain patterns.

 

(As a side note, about a year ago in a thread on this topic, I threw around the idea that a clone with three -assignable-contacts per key would be enough to realistically emulate the nine contacts for the most usual drawbar settings. And now, lo and behold, the XK5 with its three virtual contacts. :wave: (Where's the tinfoil hat emoticon?!))

"Show me all the blueprints. I'm serious now, show me all the blueprints."

My homemade instruments

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I do this sort of thing on various clones, and while it's not quite as much fun as on a real console, it still "works" with no problem for me.

 

Dr88, this trick is very feasible on a clone. As long as it's a fast action. (I wouldn't be inspired to play those rhythmic chords on a weighted piano-type action.)

 

Very helpful and very encouraging information.

Back to practice for me.

 

BTW Bourniplus, I never looked too closely at your avatar before; what a riot.

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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The problem is that the left handed slap just sounds like dissonant random keys being played rather than a percussive pop. Sven had explained it's not possible on a clone; I was hoping that I could at least recreate some semblance of this.

 

Are any of you able to do this on a clone? If not, I could also try split my Nord and recreate the same drawbar settings for both and try play the rhythmic pattern on the same 'notes' with both hands...

 

I do this sort of thing on various clones, and while it's not quite as much fun as on a real console, it still "works" with no problem for me. Things to bear in mind: make sure your left hand is in the right range; make sure the slaps are really short; and don't hit too many notes at once.

I would add to this, granted coming from a taste for the more 'direct' sounds of a Baby Face Willette, or Ray Charles playing a Hammond through a Hammond speaker, one way to make up for the lack of the 9 contacts on a clone that allows you to edit the key contact level is to boost the key contact level. That's where the clones try to make up their inability to replicate the things that happen on key on, whether it's instantaneous or a held note. Emphasizing the key contact effect goes a long way toward making those sorts of slaps more realistic.
A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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Progress report:

 

Dirtied up the sound in ways you had suggested.

 

Playing the three against four pattern, RH hitting C-E-A, LH one octave below tapping (not really spanking or slapping) A-E.

 

Bringing the LH closer to the RH and playing less notes makes a heck of a difference. It certainly ain't Gregg Rolie, but it's sounding a whole lot more passable. No doubt with more practice and more tweaking it might actually sound 'good'.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - this forum is such a great resource.

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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Santana always uses a pretty large band and is very loud. He always gets that kick ass rock band in your face sound. Gregg is playing that against what, 3 or 4 percussionists plus drums plus everybody else? That's a very busy rhythm section. In the context of a live and loud concert video the fact that the LH hand slaps might be muddy falls into the category of "who cares?"

 

In the real world of most of us who are lucky to have one percussionist plus the drummer (but usually just a drummer, no percussionist), and the fact that we're usually playing in much quieter venues, that LH slap really stands out. When I had my B3 I had to use the lower manual for the LH slaps with the 16' off. Trying it on the upper manual like in this vid just didn't work no matter how I set up the drawbars because the LH was always much too strong. For me anyway and I sure could be wrong, the LH was just the "balance" to make the RH pop with the correct rhythm. And yeah, you really need some drummer DNA in you to do this. You have to be able to sit down by yourself and make it groove against a metronome. If you can't it comes off sounding like a fight in a junkyard.

 

Bob

Hammond SK1, Mojo 61, Kurzweil PC3, Korg Pa3x, Roland FA06, Band in a Box, Real Band, Studio One, too much stuff...
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In the real world of most of us who are lucky to have one percussionist plus the drummer (but usually just a drummer, no percussionist), and the fact that we're usually playing in much quieter venues, that LH slap really stands out.

 

...

 

You have to be able to sit down by yourself and make it groove against a metronome. If you can't it comes off sounding like a fight in a junkyard.

 

Valid points, but:

 

I only get to gig out once a year at a fundraiser show, but it's a pretty big event. We do have two percussionists in addition to the drummer. The venue is loud but the acoustics not muddy - it's the most popular venue in the city for non-stadium acts (Snarky Puppy played there last year, for example). There's a professional sound crew and it's mixed for video afterward so while the audience probably wouldn't hear any difference regardless of the LH settings, *I* would later on...

 

The weird thing about that groove is that I can play it almost indefinitely on instinct alone, but the second I start concentrating on the pattern or try count it out it all goes to hell...

 

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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  • 3 years later...

I"m going to follow up this thread three years later.

 

After three years of revisiting this thread and trying to follow the tips provided, I *FINALLY* got it yesterday. The trick was slapping that left hand HARD, much harder than I"d ever hit my keys before. I still have difficulty sustaining the pattern indefinitely as I will lose it the second I start to think about it in any way.

 

Just a quick note of thanks to everyone involved three years ago. It took a while, but I got it!

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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Great!

I still have difficulty sustaining the pattern indefinitely as I will lose it the second I start to think about it in any way.

 

Just a thought, following on what I wrote three years ago, you might try playing it in a one-bar pattern:

R R L R - R L R R - L R R L - R R L (and a 16th-note rest)

 

And in a two-bar pattern:

R R L R - R L R R - L R R L - R R L R -

R L R R - L R R L - R R L R - R L (and an 8th-note rest)

 

Maybe along a click that gives an accent every four beats, or an actual drum beat, as slow as it needs to be.

"Show me all the blueprints. I'm serious now, show me all the blueprints."

My homemade instruments

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Great!

I still have difficulty sustaining the pattern indefinitely as I will lose it the second I start to think about it in any way.

 

Just a thought, following on what I wrote three years ago, you might try playing it in a one-bar pattern:

R R L R - R L R R - L R R L - R R L (and a 16th-note rest)

 

And in a two-bar pattern:

R R L R - R L R R - L R R L - R R L R -

R L R R - L R R L - R R L R - R L (and an 8th-note rest)

 

Maybe along a click that gives an accent every four beats, or an actual drum beat, as slow as it needs to be.

 

Watching the video excerpt it appears to me that the L hand is not doing double hits; ie the pattern is (maybe could be) | LRRL RRLR RLRR LRRL | RR..... ?

 

"I'm well acquainted with the touch of a velvet hand..."
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Just wanted to congratulate you for providing such a great example for us all. Asked for advice/help, and then kept at it (for years!) and grew as a player for your effort and dedication. A lesson for us all. And an example of what makes this forum such a great place.

 

Jerry

 

I"m going to follow up this thread three years later.

 

After three years of revisiting this thread and trying to follow the tips provided, I *FINALLY* got it yesterday. The trick was slapping that left hand HARD, much harder than I"d ever hit my keys before. I still have difficulty sustaining the pattern indefinitely as I will lose it the second I start to think about it in any way.

 

Just a quick note of thanks to everyone involved three years ago. It took a while, but I got it!

 

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Thanks for the beautiful post, Jerry.

 

Though my participation here waxes and wanes from month to month, I love this forum. The folks here are so helpful and knowledgable and dB keeps it civil and on topic.

 

I am a firm believer in following up, especially when I'm the OP of a thread. So much can be learned by others when there's some closure with a comment on what finally 'worked'. I've learned so much from the people here that I feel it's my responsibility to do what I can to help others have the same experience.

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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You don't have to hit the keys hard, just very fast, fast enough that they barely make contact. As others have mentioned, it works better, sounds better, and is much easier on a vintage Hammond due to the bussbar contacts under the keys. It also works on the XK5 due to the multi-contacts. But on other clones, it is more difficult to achieve and never sounds 'right' because every drawbar is either on or off simultaneously.
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You don't have to hit the keys hard, just very fast, fast enough that they barely make contact.

I was having the same thought. While "hard" and "fast" are similar, especially coming from a piano perspective (where velocity is literally what MIDI uses to determine how "hard" you're playing), it's not quite the same thing, and especially in the case of organ, with a typically a high (or on XK5, multiple) trigger point which doesn't require that you press the keys all the way to the bottom to trigger a sound. There are probably multiple techniques one could use, but looking at the video, he's using the side of his palm in a "rolling" motion (from the back of the keys toward the front), and I would not think there is great "force" being used, as opposed to "speed."

 

it works better, sounds better, and is much easier on a vintage Hammond due to the bussbar contacts under the keys. It also works on the XK5 due to the multi-contacts. But on other clones, it is more difficult to achieve and never sounds 'right' because every drawbar is either on or off simultaneously.
The character of the key click is probably a factor as well. On the real thing, there is a click with each contact, which is why the click is more of a "smush" (and also on release). Even on the typical single-contact clonewheel, the click sound should be the sound of multiple contacts closing, and so the authenticity of the click might be a factor in how well a clone can do this as well. And that noise itself presumably helps a quick strike from being too full of specific audible tones.

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I missed this thread the first time around; very glad you followed up, Dr88s. Plenty of things to try, and practice. This IS a helpful and knowledgable community; also humbling :)

 

 

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

We need a barfing cat emoticon!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Alright folks, one last revival of this thread then I"ll promise I"ll let it be.

 

I had the chance to finally play this live at a show last night; though I lost the rhythm a couple of times, the end result was satisfactory for this piano-trained guy who sees organ playing as an esoteric art privy to a select few.

It was livecast; here"s an excerpt.

 

Many thanks again to everyone who helped me with this.

 

[video:youtube]

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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Alright folks, one last revival of this thread then I"ll promise I"ll let it be.

 

I had the chance to finally play this live at a show last night; though I lost the rhythm a couple of times, the end result was satisfactory for this piano-trained guy who sees organ playing as an esoteric art privy to a select few.

It was livecast; here"s an excerpt.

 

Many thanks again to everyone who helped me with this.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

I think you are thinking into this too hard.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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