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Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3017372 11/25/19 09:13 PM
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I had my eye on the Moog Matriarch and Elektron Analog Four MKII, which isn't as new as the others but still has a great sound and sequencer. But the Osmose won my wallet vote for this year.

KC Island
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: samuelblupowitz] #3017448 11/26/19 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by samuelblupowitz
Also, looks like they're right on the money with MPE's potential for modeled acoustic percussion, something I'm finding a little underutilized by Roli, whose offerings tend to be much more contemporary-electronic in that realm.

TBH, I've never played ANY non-acoustic instrument that felt better for hand percussion than a Seaboard. I've done a lot of djembe, conga, and frame drum playing on the Roli, and it just feels right. This is one thing I feel that the rubber surface does better than a traditional keyboard. I've also played on vibes with mallets as sort of a "poor man's MalletKat" with some decent results. Not gonna lie, the Osmose looks fantastic, but there's some amazing things about the Seaboard once you get used to it. I just wish Roli would get their head away from cheesy synth-pop and do more robust modeling. Equator is a surprisingly good synth, but as someone here said, it's limited sample set and lack of scripting make it more suited for layering many instruments than creating single ones. As I've pointed out, Equator is like if you married Massive with a Rompler from 1996, neither a bad thing, but limiting. Maybe one of these days, Audio Modeling will release a full developer environment for SWAM, but I'm not holding my breath.


"All's fair in love, war, and the recording studio."

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Arturia Keylab88, Mojo61, Seaboard Rise49, Vortex Keytar (RIP), Trumpet
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018245 12/03/19 11:11 AM
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A discussion at Sonic State ... they get into the glorious details, the way that Nick Batt always does ... smile

The discussion of it's role as a Midi controller with (for example) a poly aftertouch receiving synth such as the REV2 was very interesting to me.



Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018282 12/03/19 06:06 PM
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mate stubb Offline
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I love this concept! Notice how far back the key pivots are - they did that to make the black keys as expressive as the white ones. Sound engine is great too. Extremely tempted, just wish I could touch one first.


Moe
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"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018285 12/03/19 06:16 PM
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So what does MPE and MPE+ offer that regular CC assignments don't? And, what are these engines doing differently that are designed for MPE?

In watching the SS interview, it looks like you'd have to train yourself to have a super delicate initial touch! Which also means that as you playing and incidentally touching keys next to what you're playing, that you could be accidentally triggering unwanted notes, I imagine particularly the black keys. And the depth of the AT looks like it has more than the depth of most fully depressed keys on regular boards-

Altogether this looks like a board to be used for lead and solo lines!


Korg PA 1000 / NS 88 Classic / iRig Keys I/O 49
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Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018300 12/03/19 07:30 PM
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I couldn't stand it, and just put in a pre-order.

I'll end up waiting close to a year for delivery, they are talking next fall. I love the idea of position sensitive keys. I love the sounds I heard from the engine on the demo video. I love the idea of having poly aftertouch for my other instruments that can receive it (Chroma!!!)

I realize that I may have to develop a new more delicate touch, and that I may not be able to bang out fast passages. It's a bit of a gamble, but I have spent my life dreaming of a board that can do this, so I put my money where my mouth was.

love saber love


Moe
---
"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: mate stubb] #3018306 12/03/19 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mate stubb
I couldn't stand it, and just put in a pre-order.

love saber love


This is right up your street, brother. Congrats!

I am going to wait until I hear more about orchestral library compatibility and whether can get per-note expression from the libraries That's really what I want to be doing with the next rig, so I'll just wait and also buy a new computer and spec everything out together.

But man, polyphonic modular with per note expression. love

Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: Randelph] #3018310 12/03/19 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Randelph
So what does MPE and MPE+ offer that regular CC assignments don't? And, what are these engines doing differently that are designed for MPE?


You might want to check out this link. When you send a CC, all notes being played on a keyboard (or a zone of a keyboard) are going to hear and obey that cc, whether it's asking for vibrato or opening a filter. With MPE, only one note gets that message while other notes you are holding down might be getting alternative messages or none at all. In MPE each note has it's midi channel so to speak. Not sure of all the details of MPE+ as defined by Expressive E and Haken, but I understand it's essentially MPE at a higher resolution.

Originally Posted by Randelph
Altogether this looks like a board to be used for lead and solo lines!


Yes, but the biggest benefit is when you play multiple lines and they are all expressive. smile

Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018327 12/03/19 11:54 PM
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uhoh7 Offline
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well the Pre-order has sold out......

now we have a year to learn Haken concepts...yikes.

I thought the synth sounded fantastic and very distinct in the demos.

I can't believe it's taken this long to realise what Glenn and so many others seemed to make happen:


I hope somebody puts up a better ytube example of lateral finger movement by piano virtuosos, I could not find one I've recently seen from the 50's which was really dramatic.

Every week there is a new synth, and every thread on keyboards is full of whining about actions: for good reason. Finally there are piano-like actions..kawai and some of the wood key variants. Congratulations, Fatar et al, you are approaching late 18th century quality in some of your actions. If members don't have a Hammond or much time on one, put your fingers on a real one sometime, does not need to be on. No synth action I have tried is remotely close. The bakelite plastic is a unique material for one, but the main this, as most know, the keys extend deep inside the organ to the hinge, so a finger press on a black key right up at it's "end" feels near identical to a white key out at the edge. Find a synth like that. Please tell me what it is---besides Osmose.

The lack of imagination in keybed design, in contrast to so many other aspects of instrument design, is lamentable. Why? Many of the bigshots play themselves....

The seabed and other new style controllers really are innovative and interesting....but like everyone says.....not easy. Too different.

The MPE MIDI issue is daunting maybe----I could not believe the lack of love at Namm for MIDI 2.0 by many famous synth figures-- I think I heard Dave Smith poo-poo it. Just goes to show genius is fleeting...what did Einstein do after 30? The rest of his life was basically "being Einstein". Another know-it-all, like the rest of us LOL.

I'm just now retiring from 35 years of teaching skiing. "Downhill" Skiing started in the early 30's and fundamental ski design really did not change untill the 90's. Only the external threat of snowboarding broke the stubborn mindset of designers and it still took a decade to make really nice shaped skis.

The same thing is true of motocross bikes today. Glacial advancements since mid 2000s. The last bike I bought was illegal to race without adding weight!!!! In 1973 the top factory bikes weighed as little as 175lbs. Today they are near 250. OK my trials bike is 160, but you can't sit down LOL

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Spanish Horse by unoh7, on Flickr

These days I mostly ride my electric mountain bike: which is considered an evil development by many mountain bikers....there it is in a nutshell. Trail impact is identical, but e-bikes are too easy. Arrgh.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
L1050754 by unoh7, on Flickr
This is probably the most useful toy I ever bought. I rarely drive even my modern cars once the snow melts.

Hooray for Osmose!


Last edited by uhoh7; 12/04/19 12:07 AM.

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Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: uhoh7] #3018349 12/04/19 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mate stubb
Extremely tempted, just wish I could touch one first.

I felt the same way, but with the deposit being 100% refundable and the certainty that we'd get more hands on impressions before next summer? I didn't take long to decide to jump in. I'm sure it will feel unusual, but watching a variety of keyboardists play it without apparent issues was sufficient to give me hope. It's not like the average unweighted synth action is anything I'm particularly enamored of.

Originally Posted by uhoh7
well the Pre-order has sold out......

Only the 40% off deal has sold out. There's now a "second chance" offer that's still an attractive 33% off. It's also time and quantity limited, so if you're tempted then now would be the time.

For those eager for more information, Sonic LAB has their first look up:



Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R
MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Roland TD11KV
Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic, C-1 Classic, Hellraiser Extreme
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018362 12/04/19 06:05 AM
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I got in at the 33% off. I think I was also convinced by the vids that I would be able to play it. I really love the sound of the Haaken engine too.


Moe
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"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018397 12/04/19 03:01 PM
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I've listened to one demo which sounded sad but musically usable. Logically, there is a need for a zero response time controller with great static and dynamic accuracy, and an electrical connection to carry the needed informations per second, for which Midi is a bit slow, depending. An analog keyboard on an analog synth, and analog controls on an analog synth (without a microprocessor in between for memory) is a good comparison, but of course isn't polyphonic, and doesn't have fancy forms of polyphonic touch.

The MPE+ samples signals at about 500 Hz, the MPE (non +) at 25, so I suppose the latter can do more or less what (USB?) MIDI is capable of, and the newer protocol is about an order of magnitude faster, which I"d prefer still quite a bit faster for full touch neutrality, and coupled with at the very least a fixed latency response, which appears not to be guaranteed at all, very important for expression, though, just like the digitally driven sound source you connect to experiment with this.

T

Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018453 12/04/19 08:00 PM
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For people who want to learn more about MPE and why it's so important, please check out this thread in The Computer Lab forum. The thread has been dormant for a little while, but I plan to revive it by talking about my experiences with the many MPE controllers I have used and owned, and adding a bit about the Osmose.

It is a highly significant development, and really something that can be quite alien to traditional keyboard playing. The only other company in the world making a keyboard with a traditional-looking and near-traditional-feeling MPE keybed is Syntonovo in Holland, and the PAN isn't MPE because they claim MIDI is nowhere near fast enough to do what they need it to. Add to that the fact that the PAN is something like $4500? dollars, and the Osmose is a real bargain.

I view the Osmose as a more familiar way for traditional keyboardists to get into MPE, one that isn't crippled by a bad synth engine out of the starting gate. Even at full price it will be tremendously affordable in comparison to other designs, and as Mr. Clouser noted, it will be much easier to adjust to than the K-Board Pro 4 (which I still own and enjoy).

mike


Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, whoop de doo)
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Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: Dr Mike Metlay] #3018456 12/04/19 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mike Metlay
The Osmose will use the exact same EaganMatrix engine as the Continuum and ContinuuMini.


I correct myself. The Osmose's engine will actually be three times as powerful as the previous one, according to a hardware developer at Expressive E who shared some specs on another forum.

mike


Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, whoop de doo)
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Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: Tusker] #3018461 12/04/19 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tusker
Great summary of the issues, Dr. Mike. Thank you smile

Dare I ask, what happened four months ago?

You're more than welcome, Tusker. This stuff is my bread and butter and I love talking about it (see my thread in the Computer Lab forum, where I will probably copy and paste this post).

Four months ago, I was in the middle of a pretty drastic period of self-searching and woodshedding, trying to figure out if any of the existing MPE controllers out there was going to do the job for me. The K-Board Pro 4 had just arrived, and I was already doing extensive work with (deep breath here) the ContinuuMini, Joué, Sensel Morph, LinnStrument, Seaboard RISE, Seaboard Block, Lightpad Block, and Artiphon INSTRUMENT 1, not to mention the huge number of not-quite-MPE controllers I was also evaluating, everything from the Push 2 and Launchpad Pro to the Irijule TheoryBoard and (in a very limited way) the Syntonovo PopAnalog.

Not only did I have to learn how each of these controllers worked, but then I had to determine how they did what they did, what their strengths and limitations were, whether any of the limitations were nonstarters (either in general or for me particularly), how their capabilities mapped to musical expression, and finally and most importantly of all... which of them went past pleasing my left brain with feature sets and implementation, wormed their way into my right brain, and pulled me all the way through the mire and out the other side, effectively becoming "invisible" to the creative process and encouraging music that was relatively free of technical fiddling.

If the Osmose had been announced then, I would have gleefully chucked all of them and taken out a deposit on an Osmose, effectively stifling my MPE explorations for the year it would take for the instrument to arrive and necessitating a deep dive into my ContinuuMini to really get a grasp of EaganMatrix - which, to be honest, is about as much fun to work with as an assembly-language debugger. There's no guarantee that the Osmose would be what I wanted or needed, and I would have squandered a vital opportunity to really learn about this stuff... and in the process, about myself as a musician. As it is, I was comfortable with my eventual choice of a primary MPE controller, noted one or two others with very notable strengths of one sort or another that were worth keeping around if only for limited applications, and was in the process of finding good homes for the rest of them when the Osmose was announced. As previously mentioned, I was able to look at the Osmose in an objective and cool-headed manner and avoid instantly shelling out for it in the hope that it would magically solve my issues with performance.

(This also means that I now have several MPE controllers up for sale; that's not to say they aren't great, because all of them are in some way or another, but more to say that they aren't my particular cup of tea. Someone else will probably get great use for them, and I plan to list them in the Garage Sale thread soon, as well as on Reverb.)

mike




Last edited by Dr Mike Metlay; 12/04/19 08:26 PM.

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Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018490 12/04/19 10:40 PM
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Dr. Mike, Great summary of the the MPE landscape and issues. I am one who tried a Seaboard and just couldn't get along with it. It was more expressive than a standard keyboard, but also frustratingly incapable of nuance that I wanted to generate.

To the thread, I think the thing about the Eagen Matrix that stood out in the video was when they noted that every single pin in the matrix can accept modulation from any of the controller data streams. While it makes it complex to program, that kind of modulation and subtlety has to be a lot of what makes the sounds so expressive. The Solaris calls this "modular style modulation" - destination-based routing. Any mod source can affect any destination that accepts modulation. It is kind of an unlimited mod matrix. Once you use it a normal mod matrix seems a bit odd. In the Solaris, you think you want to modulate it, there's a choice of close to 50 things you can use. But most of them are not tied to physical control. They are LFO's, the oscillators, rotors, etc. In the Eagen Matrix the options tie to physical control that appears to be significantly higher resolution than other things.

I do think Theo is right on controller scanning rates. I have a Non-Linear Labs C15 keyboard. It does not use MIDI. It does scan the keyboard and controllers 4,000 times a second. It creates a very connected and subtle playing surface. The pitch bender feels as natural as doing bends on a guitar. Higher scanning rates and controller data flows are a very good thing for live manipulation.

Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: uhoh7] #3018499 12/04/19 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by uhoh7

I'm just now retiring from 35 years of teaching skiing. "Downhill" Skiing started in the early 30's and fundamental ski design really did not change untill the 90's. Only the external threat of snowboarding broke the stubborn mindset of designers and it still took a decade to make really nice shaped skis.
Oh yea the new put a snowboard on each foot tech. You know there used to be the phrase
"skiing the deep" but now a days it's just water skiing on the snow. turn around look and say
yea thous crappy looking turns look like you put a lot of effort in to carving them.


Triton Extreme 76, Kawai ES3, GEM-RPX, HX3/Drawbar control, MSI Z97
MPower/4790K, Lynx Aurora 8/MADI/AES16e, OP-X PRO, Ptec, Komplete.
Ashley MX-206. future MOTU M64 RME Digiface Dante for Mon./net
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: Dr Mike Metlay] #3018502 12/04/19 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Mike Metlay
Originally Posted by Dr Mike Metlay
The Osmose will use the exact same EaganMatrix engine as the Continuum and ContinuuMini.


I correct myself. The Osmose's engine will actually be three times as powerful as the previous one, according to a hardware developer at Expressive E who shared some specs on another forum.

mike


Thanks for the hot tip!

https://community.polyexpression.com/t/expressive-e-osmose/409/69

So to your knowledge, Continuum has only one DSP, while Osmose will have 3, thus having triple the power? Or does Continuum also have a triple DSP board, but Osmose will get a processing bump?

Although keys is not my main instrument, I too appreciated how quickly Nick adapted to the Osmose as an instrument, which indeed must be reassuring to keyboardists.

Last edited by GovernorSilver; 12/04/19 11:53 PM.
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: GovernorSilver] #3018634 12/06/19 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by GovernorSilver
So to your knowledge, Continuum has only one DSP, while Osmose will have 3, thus having triple the power? Or does Continuum also have a triple DSP board, but Osmose will get a processing bump?

There's an "EaganMatrix Expander" for the Continuum that triples the available DSP power. The Osmose contains the equivalent of a Continuum plus the expander.


Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R
MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Roland TD11KV
Electric: Schecter Solo Custom Exotic, C-1 Classic, Hellraiser Extreme
Re: Osmose keyboard [Re: marino] #3018649 12/06/19 10:48 AM
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Not being able to resist PolyAT, even in the form of MPE, I think it may be worth a try. They are scheduled to be at NAMM, so there will be a chance to play it. I just hesitate because of my Kickstarter experiences.

Oh and btw- motorized mtn bikes suck. Glad they are not allowed on our trails in AZ. You want a motorized bike for commuting? Then I don’t have a problem.

Last edited by Marzzz; 12/06/19 10:50 AM.
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