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So. The Poly D.
#3017291 11/25/19 06:26 AM
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Not knowing price... It looks like a very useful synth. I like paraphonic fwiw, and thats what it looks like. The sequencer looks like the special sauce, and the effects are a nice bonus, although we don't see the drive in the demo. No presets? Probably not. Still, its sort of a poly minimoog. I don't demand full polyphony, there's still a lot of expression available with paraphonic. I'm intrigued to see the price.

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Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017294 11/25/19 08:32 AM
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Things to like:
The keyboard, form factor, 4 oscs (or 3 plus an extra LFO, I guess), the big sound, the chorus and distortion. I hope they didn't get rid of the internal routing for filter feedback.

Personally, I don't care about paraphony or sequencer.

Things to not like:
The misleading name, and the need to use patch cables to apply velocity and aftertouch.

And - at this point, I would have loved patch memory and delay/reverb. I would gladily have paid more.
Speaking of which: The appeal of this instrument will depend in good part on the price.

Re: So. The Poly D.
marino #3017299 11/25/19 10:16 AM
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Yes the price is going to be interesting. In Europe the Model D is £249 (Bax Music) and the Odyssey is £380. The Deep Mind Six is a real bargain at £430. So I think they will pitch it between the Ody and the DM6 - say £399. I'm in if that's the case.

Some of omissions from the Model D :

A440 tone
Feedback (so you have to do the original trick with the headphone out)
Less patch points available

As for the Model D - I think it will continue to sell (Euro rack, semi modular, you can have a true duophonic Model D for less then £500).

Love to see a roadmap for the Behringer synth range for 2020. Here's the story so far:

Attached Files
Screenshot 2019-11-25 at 10.12.26.png (110.53 KB, 748 downloads)
Screenshot 2019-11-25 at 10.12.35.png (57.71 KB, 730 downloads)
Last edited by ChazKeys; 11/25/19 10:18 AM.
Re: So. The Poly D.
ChazKeys #3017303 11/25/19 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ChazKeys
Some of omissions from the Model D :
Feedback (so you have to do the original trick with the headphone out)

Mmm, are you sure of this? It sound like a rather silly omission.

Re: So. The Poly D.
marino #3017304 11/25/19 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by marino
Originally Posted by ChazKeys
Some of omissions from the Model D :
Feedback (so you have to do the original trick with the headphone out)

Mmm, are you sure of this? It sound like a rather silly omission.


Yes I'm wrong the External In is still there! If nothing is connected to the input on the back this will route the output from the synth back into the filter. No A440 though - maybe a combination of key presses?

Re: So. The Poly D.
marino #3017310 11/25/19 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by marino
at this point, I would have loved patch memory

I'm not sure it is even possible to have patch memory on a true Minimoog design. Sequential Circuits did make an external programmer to add preset recall to (modified) Minimoogs, but it replaced the Mini's envelopes with its own, and could not control every parameter. If you altered the Minimoog design to be fully programmable, using differently designed envelope circuitry for example, it could conceivably no longer be as sonically faithful. If you're not that much of a purist, I guess you can hope for a larger poly version of an SE-02.


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Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017314 11/25/19 02:11 PM
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So my first reaction is that this is truly a tremor inducing instrument. Guitarists in your vicinity may be forgiven if they start to quake.

Secondly, it covers a lot of ground doesn't it? Leads and basses, brass stabs, even (with that lovely chorus) strings and pads. One surprise is the omission of a delay circuit, since Behringer was able to place one in the Neutron. (A delay with tap tempo is very useful on stage) Still, there are dedicated delay effects in the market place for that. Behringer has wrung a lot of timbral variety with a bare-bones simplicity which allows them to reduce their risk of defects. A practical decision imo.

Thirdly, I am nervous for my friends at Moog. They have been responsible for a lot of inspiring innovations over a couple of decades. In the last two years, big chunks of their market footprint have been invaded by Behringer and it's (generally good) copy-cat circuits. Many of us who would have picked up a Grandmother or Matriarch without thinking may now have to scratch our heads and choose. I wish Moog the best. Let's hope this brings out another round of profitable innovations from them. While I don't doubt Behringer's capacity for original analog ideas (as with the Neutron) I am not certain of their commitment to painstaking analog luthiership after the competitors have been driven out or have retreated up-market.

Poly D and Osmose propel us further into a golden age of synthesizer keyboards, in both the analog and digital lanes. It's a good time to be doing what we are doing. cheers

Re: So. The Poly D.
Tusker #3017329 11/25/19 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tusker


Thirdly, I am nervous for my friends at Moog. They have been responsible for a lot of inspiring innovations over a couple of decades. In the last two years, big chunks of their market footprint have been invaded by Behringer and it's (generally good) copy-cat circuits. Many of us who would have picked up a Grandmother or Matriarch without thinking may now have to scratch our heads and choose. I wish Moog the best.


“...without thinking...” is right. Other than being monos these are completely different synths. Other than Animoog Moog discontinued all synths that claimed to be a mini or equivalent.

Of course in reality these are all just different types of pianos.
keys2

(But I see your point wink )

Last edited by Markyboard; 11/25/19 04:53 PM.
Re: So. The Poly D.
Tusker #3017330 11/25/19 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tusker
It's a good time to be doing what we are doing. cheers


Can't argue with that.




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Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017337 11/25/19 05:47 PM
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Nick at Sonicstate is weighing in ....

Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017341 11/25/19 06:04 PM
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Price given towards the end of the video is $699 US. I was tremendously excited when I saw this posted late last night. Now that I've slept on it some of the design decisions are a bit of a head scratcher for me. Watching Nick struggle with getting voices tuned and envelopes to trigger correctly in paraphonic mode makes me wonder if this is feature we really need in 2019. I never wanted a paraphonic Minimoog, but always wished it came from the factory with oscillator sync. He's questioning the inclusion of a Juno chorus in lieu of delay and reverb, and so am I.

If I think about it as the Behringer Model D with an extra VCO and keyboard attached I feel better about it.

Re: So. The Poly D.
Bill H. #3017352 11/25/19 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill H.
Watching Nick struggle with getting voices tuned and envelopes to trigger correctly in paraphonic mode makes me wonder if this is feature we really need in 2019.


Yes Bill, the tuning really hurt to watch for me also. Been there. Don't want to do it again. This synth is not going help any of us with a dance band gig or even most pop/rock gigs right? You cannot switch sounds in a song. Even between songs you probably won't be able to (if the band is any good at keeping people on the dance-floor whistle ) right? For those gigs, it's hard to beat something like a REV 2 or a Deepmind, or a Peak.

So to me, that leaves jam bands, electronic ensembles (or solo acts)... people who have the stage space for an additional one patch instrument, albeit with a huge sound. Add a lunchbox modular and feed the CV's on the back and it's quite a nice component of a modular rig. This instrument would work well for one of my jam band gigs where sonic exploration is desired but the synth plays the same role in every song.

One thing that Nick didn't address (and Loopop also) in an otherwise excellent review, was to nail the question of whether four oscillators can actually drive the filter without using the headphone-out-to-audio-in trick (which has a different sonic character and diminishes the filter resonance). If Behringer merely raised the headroom on the mixer to accommodate the fourth oscillator, that would be desirable. You would still be capable of a range of classic sounds with the rasp and the resonance. The sound of the instrument in the Behringer demo seems to indicate this is what they did ( i.e. they didn't ditch the mixer for a "higher fidelity" non-overdriving mixer). It would be good to know for certain, because the pre-filter saturation is part of the original Model D's magic.

Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017354 11/25/19 07:14 PM
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Neat idea, and cool looking synth. At least it has a keyboard.

Re: So. The Poly D.
Bill H. #3017384 11/25/19 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill H.
Price given towards the end of the video is $699 US. I was tremendously excited when I saw this posted late last night. Now that I've slept on it some of the design decisions are a bit of a head scratcher for me. Watching Nick struggle with getting voices tuned and envelopes to trigger correctly in paraphonic mode makes me wonder if this is feature we really need in 2019. I never wanted a paraphonic Minimoog, but always wished it came from the factory with oscillator sync. He's questioning the inclusion of a Juno chorus in lieu of delay and reverb, and so am I.

If I think about it as the Behringer Model D with an extra VCO and keyboard attached I feel better about it.


Regarding the chorus over delay, I think it would benefit no matter what with a delay, but I think the chorus is really only there so that when playing polyphonically with only one oscillator per voice, the chorus is needed to thicken the sound. Playing it monophonically I'm not sure how useful the chorus feature is.

That said, as a mono/poly owner who always pined for a minimoog, this seems like a pretty good idea! I've heard rumours Behringer is planning a mono/poly clone, so I'm tempted to sell my original mono/poly before there is a cheaper version, and get one of these......but then I stop and realize that honestly my reface CS actually covers most of what I use an analog synth for. Also in Canadian funds I strongly suspect the poly D (a name ruined for me because my wife watches Jersey shore) is going to be over $1000.


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Re: So. The Poly D.
Tusker #3017386 11/25/19 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Tusker
This synth is not going help any of us with a dance band gig or even most pop/rock gigs right? You cannot switch sounds in a song. Even between songs you probably won't be able to (if the band is any good at keeping people on the dance-floor whistle ) right? For those gigs, it's hard to beat something like a REV 2 or a Deepmind, or a Peak.

So to me, that leaves jam bands, electronic ensembles (or solo acts)... people who have the stage space for an additional one patch instrument, albeit with a huge sound.

Or just for studio/recording use.


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Re: So. The Poly D.
Shutoku #3017387 11/25/19 10:01 PM
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I'm also struggling a bit with this concept. The new Moog Matriarch is 4osc paraphonic so it's seems to be a nod in that direction. The Juno chorus means you can produce Juno 106 type pads I suppose. However, if it's the same circuit from TC June-6 chorus pedal then it is not the same circuit as the original 106.

If it comes in at £699 then that's too much. Why didn't they just beef up the Model D to full size and turn it into a MiniMoog clone and sell it at the same price as the Odyssey. Or add presets and sell it for £499.

Hmm a bit foxed... like the guy says in the video "releasing too many synths".


Last edited by ChazKeys; 11/25/19 10:06 PM.
Re: So. The Poly D.
Tusker #3017400 11/25/19 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill H.
I never wanted a paraphonic Minimoog, but always wished it came from the factory with oscillator sync. He's questioning the inclusion of a Juno chorus in lieu of delay and reverb, and so am I.

I'm totally with you, they included (good) multieffect on the Odissey, so why not on this one?! Or at least the Neutron delay.
About osc sync: Old Minis could be modified to produce sync. With four oscs, this could be even more desirable: Two oscillators in sync with an envelope or velocity changing the harmonic content by modulating the pitch of the syncronized osc, and two more oscillators left for detuning and stuff....

Originally Posted by Tusker
So to me, that leaves jam bands, electronic ensembles (or solo acts)... people who have the stage space for an additional one patch instrument, albeit with a huge sound. Add a lunchbox modular and feed the CV's on the back and it's quite a nice component of a modular rig. This instrument would work well for one of my jam band gigs where sonic exploration is desired but the synth plays the same role in every song.

You forgot the keyboard virtuoso from the prog era, able to change settings very quickly while playing, or in pauses: People like Patrick Moraz, Kerry Minnear, Vittorio Nocenzi... and for really complex reprogramming, you could always include a guitar or drum solo in the arrangement. grin



Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017404 11/25/19 11:25 PM
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I was loving it, but when Nick turned up the emphasis at 17:35 and it lost most of the bottom end, I had a sad.

Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017415 11/26/19 12:20 AM
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Two first impressions based on the video review above:
1) Some of the pots seemed physically wobbly when he was pushing them from the side a bit.
2) I'm...I'm just not feelin' it. I have a Behringer Model D and love it. I was ready to be impressed, but I'm coming away with a little of the same feeling that I had after playing the Moog One. Nice, but I don't plan on asking Santa for one. Actually, I think if I was to somehow decide that I wanted to buy something from Behringer, I'd probably opt for a second Model D. Yes, I'm aware that the cumulative cost should be considered, but I got my first D for a little over $250 owing to a sale. I've seen reports recently of D's being sold for just under $200. Okay, so if I got, say, three Ds, starting from scratch, then that would be around $600 (assuming that I could still find them at that price or perhaps buy used). I've already got a sequencer. I've got a good delay that I think will also do chorus, although I only ever use it for delay. So then I poly-chain three Ds and run them via MIDI or perhaps CV from Euro stuff and I'm not far out of the running. If I use my Fatar critter that I built, I've got 76 keys, so I'm ahead there already, versus 37 keys.

Incidentally, my D stays in tune over more octaves than either of my Voyagers (one keyboard, one RME) and, yes, I've tuned both Voyagers. They were horrendously wonky when I got them. Now they track pretty well for, say, four octaves, maybe a little more. I haven't really made a study of it. But the D, out of the box, tracks pretty much the entire Fatar, with no tweaking.

I'll sleep on it. Maybe listen to some more demos. Maybe find one that I can physically touch and test drive it. But for now I'd probably go for another D or two if I felt the need to do all that.

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Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017416 11/26/19 12:34 AM
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I like the form factor, but there have been so many variations, its now mostly a Lego thing: does it or does it not pile on enough LFOs, effects, colored LEDs, etc. to make the grade. I've owned a couple of Moogs; this version seems righteous to me, online sound limitations acknowledged. They were always part of a chain of things like noisy phasers. Effects really bring out the core voice. This angle on it seems poised to be hot-rodded like any other. Primary target: people who can't afford a Moog One, but still claw at the door like ladder-filter zombies for a decent taste of it.

As far as the market shape goes... when I first started dabbling, an old friend and I had a pile of mismatched high & low gear from several makers, including a gritty PAIA modular he built. Tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I suspect that quite a few people have a high end piece or two (Kronos, Nord), a couple of mid-range items like modules (Euro, tabletop or older 19" rackmounts) and then some scattered cheapo bits. This 'Mini' sits right between the second and third tiers, IMO. Objectively, the overall design is solid. (I'm unimpressed with paraphony as a bit of a parlor trick. Its mostly a string/organ/pad sort of thing that can be handled far better elsewhere.)

This applies to my software rig as well. I have some high end-ish things, several middle-type things and a few embarrassingy funny/ crappy items. As with hardware, I can still hit a key and unexpectedly hear the awful sound of C'thulu processing a big Italian meal. That's synthesis for you. love rolleyes


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Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017419 11/26/19 01:16 AM
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It reminds me of a cross between a Minimoog and a Korg Mono/Poly. Still I think a Korg Minilogue is a better value.

Re: So. The Poly D.
ChazKeys #3017430 11/26/19 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ChazKeys
Why didn't they just beef up the Model D to full size and turn it into a MiniMoog clone and sell it at the same price as the Odyssey.


Exactly my thoughts. After what Behringer did with the Odyssey, I feel a bit deflated. Just give me a D with a decent sized front panel that I can adjust without tweezers, a three octave full sized keyboard, and we're good. The Odyssey's Klark Teknik effects would have been icing on the cake.

If I get one (and I still may) it would be primarily for the same sorts of things I used a Minimoog for: the most badass lead synth ever. Set on top of a stack, it's got the look and hopefully it's got the sound. I just hope they get the filter overdrive problem figured out before production.

Re: So. The Poly D.
Bill H. #3017444 11/26/19 04:59 AM
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If you're hoping to cover classic mini stuff, you may get bit by the 37 keys (the MM had 44). Four-voice makes 37 keys feel even tighter. (The MonoPoly had 44, too.) I'd have made it either 44 or 49. Then take advantage of the extra width to move the left panel controls (except wheels) up to the console, and have that piece detachable so you could also used it as a module.


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Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017449 11/26/19 08:48 AM
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bOOOOg

...but in all seriousness, HOLY CRAP!


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Re: So. The Poly D.
EricBarker #3017479 11/26/19 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by EricBarker
...but in all seriousness, HOLY CRAP!


finally... a comment in this thread that doesn't make me go "Yikes, tough crowd!"


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Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017483 11/26/19 04:32 PM
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Poly D listed on MusicStore in Germany for £598/$646 - more than I was hoping. That is £100 more than 2 Model Ds or 2 MS1s. When you look at the price of the MS1 and the Odyssey, which are full size clones i don't see a £250 price difference for 2 extra oscillators and paraphony. The Ody also has Klark Technic effects too which are very usable. Another comparison - this is the same price as a DeepMind 12.

Here some screen grabs

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Screenshot 2019-11-26 at 16.30.13.png (209.18 KB, 299 downloads)
Screenshot 2019-11-26 at 16.23.49.png (285.55 KB, 297 downloads)
Re: So. The Poly D.
mcgoo #3017484 11/26/19 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgoo
Originally Posted by EricBarker
...but in all seriousness, HOLY CRAP!


finally... a comment in this thread that doesn't make me go "Yikes, tough crowd!"

I feel much better about it after watching this video:



So apparently in unison mode it behaves like a four osc mono synth, but dynamically allocates voices if you want to slip in a few chords here and there. For my purposes that may actually be useful.

Via USB you can address various utilities like pitch bend range and key priority (low, high, last) - which really helps make it practical these days.

I'm not happy about having to use patch cords for the synth to use key velocity and aftertouch, but at least you can do it.

As I said before this is not the way I would have souped up a Mini, but the design choices seem to be well thought out. Given the sexy wood case. $699 is reasonable. I imagine I'll pick one up when available.

Re: So. The Poly D.
Bill H. #3017486 11/26/19 04:57 PM
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I'm not sure if I'll want to spring for one of these or not. For the work I do the ability to save and load patches is essential, so I've already got a pair of Roland SE-02s which are awesome.

Nevertheless this is a really tempting toy and an amazing value of $699.00. I don't understand how anyone could look at this little miracle and come up with anything critical to say, I just hope Behringer keeps it up.

Re: So. The Poly D.
TechEverlasting #3017502 11/26/19 06:22 PM
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Yes to that!
A bit or perspective ... you can buy 5 Poly Ds for the price of a Moog Model D reissue. And they both have wall warts!

Behringer have been spoiling us with their low prices and the Poly D might be viewed as a flagship product - it does look very good. The DeepMind 12 was £1000 when it was launched so I suppose the Poly D will come down in price. I wonder if they will ship in Europe before Christmas - wouldn't object if I found this under the tree!

Last edited by ChazKeys; 11/26/19 06:22 PM.
Re: So. The Poly D.
scottasin #3017520 11/26/19 07:54 PM
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As other people have stated before, the wiring and cost of creating presets on an analog synth is NO SMALL FEAT, and would likely double the price of one of these. Yes, it's a big tossup, but it would force you to get REALLY GOOD at locking in tones very quickly. Since Behringer's goal is low cost, and the original mini didn't have presets, at those prices it's an obvious cut.


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