Working with Bassists?

[mate stubb]

I play left hand piano in my band, but never left hand organ. The piano sound I use doesn't boom and stays out of the bass player's way.

[BbAltered]

The soul band I play with does a version of Stevie Wonder's I Wish. In this case, it is the bass player stepping on my part!! I allow it and I don't give him any grief for it. We play that bass line together and it is extra punchy. My RH comps the clav part.

 

 

[Barryjam]

I Wish is another example where the main bass/Rhodes riff is simple quarter notes played exactly the same throughout the song, so duplication sounds great. But it can get muddy during the prechorus unless the two players work together to keep the groove.

[Barryjam]

This also got me thinking about 'Don"t Stop Believing,' where the piano bass is essential to the intro but is clearly syncopated. Then the bass comes in but is NOT syncopated. Both players need to listen carefully and work together to get this right.

[Barryjam]

I play left hand piano in my band, but never left hand organ. The piano sound I use doesn't boom and stays out of the bass player's way.

 

 

this! I play in a Chicago tribute band where I"m frequently playing left hand (even duplicating bass) on AP, Rhodes, and, of course, FM EP, but I never touch the keys with left hand on organ (except for palm smears).

 

But, again, these are heavily rehearsed songs, played with an ensemble focus, where the bass player and I hear and iron out our differences.

 

[EricBarker]

I don't alter my playing too much with bass players, but I stay away from much below C-below-middle-C or so. I'll often play the LH an octave up from where I normally would. I also don't sit on notes much down there with bass players. I'll typically opt for quick-attack sounds like piano and make sure they don't sustain. Playing some sort of bass helps anchor my feel, but I can just do it in a higher register. DEFINITELY stay away from synth bass or leads in the low end, the only exception being when you're going for a processed bass tone where you and the bass player play in unison (like on most Muse covers).

 

It took me a while to get used to playing with bass players, but I love it now. Some of my best friends are bass players and I dabble in the 4-string myself. My favorite is upright (so fun to play), wish it was used more often.

[CowboyNQ]

Do you all typically stick to the upper octaves when working with groups/arranging parts?

Hey Derek,

 

Every covers band I've been in will attempt to stick to the arrangement as done by the original band, within reason. Seems to work ok 99% of the time.

 

For me where this stuff rears its head is when we cover a song without keys in the original. Then a fair bit of consideration needs to be given by the keys player as to what they will/won't choose to play. If they choose to play in the song at all, that is. No more to say on this subject other than there's a stack of great advice preceding this post.

 

Good luck!

 

[RandyFF]

Wow, so many valid POV. A lot to absorb, esp liked eqing LH bass so it wasn't so bassy, still playing the bass line if that helps you but turning it way down, and not sustaining your sounds.

 

I'm really curious about those of you that play LH bass for a band. As much as I love playing LH bass, I'm not steady enough to be relied on exclusively. In my practicing these days, I'll let the LH take the lead, the RH compliments it, and in that way I'm getting closer to having a steady pulse that can be counted on. In fact, in jam scenes, if I'm playing LH bass and there's no bassist, I mostly ONLY play that so I can keep it steady.

 

In the jam scenes I hang out it in, it's not as defined as playing in a full band. I'm mostly surrounded by congas, so there's not much bass drum and bass creating a rhythm section. That's alright by me, I often feel like the bass drum over-simplifies the beat, pounding it out on the 1 or whatever. Congas have alot of spiciness, like dancing feet, they're wonderful to play with.

 

I enjoy playing with a bass player, letting him walk around, while I play a bass line that is often an octave lower and playing 1 note for every 4 of his. To me it sounds fantastic, I love having both bass parts, the super low notes that boom out if you've got good speakers, what a feeling, and the articulated line a good bass player will bring out.

 

As many have said here, it's all about what the song calls for, your working relationship with the bassist, having sounds that compliment each other, etc.

 

 

 

 

[timwat]

I just did LH bass for a whole gig in Pebble Beach this weekend. The singer / BL (I've never played with him before) comes in, says the BP flaked and can I kick bass for the gig.

 

95% jazz and a few blues and R&B tunes. Yeah, I can do that.

 

The hard part for me is the hand independence keeping bass steady and RH soloing. My lines and phrasing suffered that night, but I wasn't going to get amateur on the groove and wanted to make sure I held it down, especially as the drummer wasn't the most swinging.

 

There are several guys out here in the bay area who do a killin' job with LH bass as normal part of their repertoire. I'm not one of those guys yet. Maybe when I'm older and grayer.

 

 

[EscapeRocks]

This also got me thinking about 'Don"t Stop Believing,' where the piano bass is essential to the intro but is clearly syncopated. Then the bass comes in but is NOT syncopated. Both players need to listen carefully and work together to get this right.

 

You mean the way it alternates between the intro/between verses bass line, and verses bass line, right?

 

Intro, and before 2nd verse

 

During the first two 2 verses "just a small town girl/just a city boy" and "A singer in a smoky room......"

 

Of course the chorus sections "strangers, waiting..." you're on synth, and the bass is doing it's own thing.

 

Verses 3 and 4, follow the verse pattern, but you're on synth by that point just playing the quick stabs. No piano bass there.

 

The pre "don't stop believing" signature riff the bass follows the intro pattern, and continues however long they carry out singng Don't stop......

 

 

 

[elif]

I enjoy playing with a bass player, letting him walk around, while I play a bass line that is often an octave lower and playing 1 note for every 4 of his. To me it sounds fantastic, I love having both bass parts, the super low notes that boom out if you've got good speakers, what a feeling, and the articulated line a good bass player will bring out.

 

Dumpstaphunk is a band with two bass players. They play different parts. We cover one of their songs

, alas, with only one keyboard bass player. I think it loses something but the BL likes it. I suspect that most of the audience have never heard the original anyway,

 

[Outkaster]

It's really not hard if you develop your instinct in where to play. Some guys just know it and more have to work at it. You have to understand your role as a keyboard player in a group setting.

[Barryjam]

This also got me thinking about 'Don"t Stop Believing,' where the piano bass is essential to the intro but is clearly syncopated. Then the bass comes in but is NOT syncopated. Both players need to listen carefully and work together to get this right.

 

You mean the way it alternates between the intro/between verses bass line, and verses bass line, right?

 

 

 

Yes. I incorrectly played it like the intro during the verse, until my bass player politely corrected me.

[EricBarker]

> Don't Stop Believing

 

OMG, I never noticed the change. I've been doing it like the intro throughout the entire first section. Been playing it wrong for years! I feel dumb now. I also notice it's not 100% consistent: there's one point where the piano plays on the pickup while the bass plays on the downbeat. In our band, piano has always played the bassline throughout the entire first section anyway (even before I joined the band), so I don't have to coordinate on that song. I add a synth-bass sound to my left hand so it sounds more-or-less like piano/bass playing together.

 

Not sure if it's worth it to try and change at this point or not. It's not the kind of thing most people will pick up on, and the most important thing is absolute precision during that passage.

[timwat]

> DSB

 

Yeah, a few years ago in another covers band the bass player politely asked me to listen to the original - he had played in a Journey tribute and they were very mindful of the nuances. And my LH wasn't lining up with him.

 

So I spent a little listening and noting each measure - is it 1 or the push? And it's a great thing when bass and keys are locked on that, it really seems to support the vocal line a lot better.

 

But now the thing is when I play DSB with a BP who hasn't gotten the whole thing nailed - once again LH doesn't line up.

 

So FWIW, my 0.02 is if your BP is going to study it too, it makes a noticeable difference in the song (IMHO). But both bass and keys need to be on the same page on this.

 

Tim

[EricBarker]

And that's probably why I never learned it correctly, for whatever reason, my band has a history of having the keyboard play the intro alone... maybe the bass player used to go and get a drink (there were several bass players before me, so who knows). I never had to lock in. I always knew that the original had bass, but we just didn't.

 

One thing is none of our bass players are effects hounds. Anytime there's some big chorus or synth bass, I always double it to create the more synthy sound. For instance, all Muse songs we cover (Uprising, Starlight, used to do a few more), originally are just bass though heavy fuzz or a bass synth. When we cover it, I just double the bass with a distorted or synthy tone to fill it out.

 

Funny how it's the opposite with DSB

[Stokely]

I generally stay out of the bassist's sound area, and he generally stays out of mine Meaning, I very very rarely play a lower octave sound, maybe as some special effect but even there he tends to take on that stuff with pedals and whatnot--and hey, have at it, how often do bassists get to get crazy

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Praise band usually doesn't have a bass player (I started with them playing bass, but when my fretting hand started hurting, switched to LH key bass), but I generally hold up a bass line working with the drummer for a good groove. Add some simple RH stuff with the other keyboard. On some of the songs where appropriate, may focus only on organ, orchestral, choir, percussion, whatever seems to add and not detract from the song. Often use that for first verse & chorus, then add a little bass, then more bass.

Since I've played real electric bass (Gibson RD Artist with Moog electronics in it), now 5-string Les Paul; I have a fair feeling for making it sound at least mostly realistic (admittedly I do like to do octaves sometimes with low notes that no electric bass produces).

 

When playing with others where there is a bass player, almost always let them do their thing and focus on other areas that enhance the music.

 

[MotiDave]

This also got me thinking about 'Don"t Stop Believing,' where the piano bass is essential to the intro but is clearly syncopated. Then the bass comes in but is NOT syncopated. Both players need to listen carefully and work together to get this right.

 

You mean the way it alternates between the intro/between verses bass line, and verses bass line, right?

 

Intro, and before 2nd verse

 

During the first two 2 verses "just a small town girl/just a city boy" and "A singer in a smoky room......"

 

Of course the chorus sections "strangers, waiting..." you're on synth, and the bass is doing it's own thing.

 

Verses 3 and 4, follow the verse pattern, but you're on synth by that point just playing the quick stabs. No piano bass there.

 

The pre "don't stop believing" signature riff the bass follows the intro pattern, and continues however long they carry out singng Don't stop......

 

 

My bass player jumps in and doubles my LH from the start of Dont Stop. Well, from the 2nd bass note as I don"t give him my cue to jump on my LH line. He shouldn"t play yet but I don"t care - have fun bro and jump on in. Its a cover song, wgaf.

 

One thing Ive noticed is a lot of key players don"t play the brass synth stab parts in the second half of the song, which I find odd as I really like that contrast to the first half piano accompaniment, personally. Instead they play some variation of the piano part throughout. Odd to me, i love that synth stab part, though as it goes on I"ll add a few more stabs here n there.

 

Btw - you were the one that taught me the LH line syncopation difference key is no vocals vs. vocals. Yup, right here at KC. I knew it was different but I didn"t notice the link to the vocals and always felt 'guessing'. You, sir, are genius and generous with your knowledge!

 

God bless KC, eh?

[harmonizer]

In our 7 person covers band, there are only a few songs where I play a left hand part on keys which gets down into the bass range. We play "The Letter" based on Joe Cocker's live version, which includes prominent left hand bass notes on AP. "Working for the Weekend" has prominent left hand synth bass notes which parallel the bass line. On "Life in the Fast Lane" I play a clav part which mirrors the bass line. With the exception of some occasional notes to add emphasis, i.e between verses, that's about it, for a song list that has about 60 songs in our current rotation.

 

My number might be smaller than others, because keys is a second instrument for me and my skills are not that good, and we don't play keyboard feature songs such as Billy Joel or Elton John.

 

We have a competent bass player so there is no benefit in me getting in the bass player's range unless the song specifically calls for it.

 

There is a similar concept in having our rhythm guitarist and me not step on each other if we are both playing chords on a song. Often we play different rhythms - one of us playing the chords as more held notes while the other plays something more rhythmical, or we will play in different octaves.

 

Consider that when playing live, the sound mix that the listener hears live will be more chaotic than when listening to a studio recording at home. So that arrangement you hear in the studio recording might need to be cleaned up in order to work live. Get the dirt and mud out, or else it's not gonna work live.

[Tusker]

I echo the general advice to stay out of the bass player's way. Most bass players I play with really appreciate that courtesy. However, that's just a place to begin a relationship with a neighbor. Sometimes flexibility is needed ....

 

A practical example is to double the bass line to thicken it up as others have mentioned. In rock contexts, a distorted B3 behind the doubled bass and guitar can help glue the elements of a riff together. Of course you only do it if your band mates welcome it! There also times (particularly in intimate settings), it doesn't hurt to have a bit of mud to contrast with clarity and precision elsewhere in a song or set. The lower strings in an acoustic piano are the most powerful and harmonically rich sounds in the instrument. There is a time to use them.

 

An excellent acoustic bass player with whom I am fortunate to play, helped me with a vocabulary of having two instruments exploring low drones. He had gigged for several years with a Greek jazz pianist who was quite fond of (harmonic and inharmonic) low drones in his Mediterranean and Central European influenced compositions. He wanted to teach me this, so very tentatively I start exploring territory near him and he would smile approvingly. We ended up having this additional dark color in our palette that could take the emotion to a different place.

 

Of course, in a larger ensemble or a party band, that sort of thinking doesn't apply.