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Working with Bassists?


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Fairly new to the keyboard game and just beginning to try playing in an actual group setting. I was invited to rehearse with a group. First song went ok. The second was Kool & The Gang's "Celebration" after we concluded the song, the bassist tells me to lay off the left-hand. I understood his point as during the verses as we were both playing the same rhythms during the choruses. We then start on O'Jay's "Love Train". Heeding the bassist's request, I stick to single sustained notes in the octave below middle C. 15 seconds into it, he waves a halt, and tells me again to lay off the left-hand. So I finish out the evening playing only right hand parts.

 

My question is, is this typical in group settings? What I was playing was not overly busy or particularly loud. Do you all typically stick to the upper octaves when working with groups/arranging parts?

 

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Derek

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Depends on the sounds. He pronbablly didn't like you muddying up the low end frequencies. Sometimes I'll simply eq LH parts to take out the low end.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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"Working" with bassists... heh... oh, don't get me started on bass players.... :whistle:

 

But yeah, it's normal to stay away from the lower notes on the keyboard, as they will generally muddy the lower end of the sound, which has to be clearly defined by the bass and the kick drum.

There are many exceptions off course and it also depends on the music, the arrangements and what type of bassist you are playing with.

 

The best way to use your left hand would typically be adding more different sounds to the mix, rather than adding many octaves of the same sound.

I.E. you can use two different keyboards OR just make a split on your one keyboard, for example with an organ for the right hand and an electric piano for the left hand (or whatever the song calls for), and transpose both sounds so you can play them both in the mid- to upper octaves.

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I play with four different bassists. Two are absolute PIA's about the left hand and two don't care at all. For the two that are PIA's I move my left hand up one octave (for organ I just pull out 4 and 2 DB's and shut down 16 and 8 and can still play in the normal range). i also back off the bass on my mixer; this sometimes is enough on the non-organ channel.

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Even if you've EQ'd out the low-end, or moved up an octave, if you're playing a bass line, then that makes two people playing a bass line. Either you're playing different variations on the line, which can sound kinda sloppy, or else the two of you need to be in lockstep, which is less freedom for the bass player.

 

The same would go with multiple people playing the lead line.

 

Unison bass and piano can sound nifty:

 

but not on every song.

 

So, yeah, things like: chords (possibly rootless) in your left hand, play fills with your right? Or leave the left-hand stuff to the rest of your band and concentrate on your right. Part of the fun of playing with people is you no longer have to be a one-man band.

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I'm both a keyboard player and a bass player, so I know there are a ton of different ways this can work (or not work). Style can be a big part of it, as there's no particular "right" or "wrong;" it's all about taste and arrangement choice. It's been one of my peculiar interests as a musician figuring out different ways to approach this, both as a bassist playing with pianists, and as a keyboard player dealing with a bassist who might not approach the bass the same way I would!

 

It sounds like you're doing some classic R&B covers in your band; is that generally what you do? These tunes tend to have prominent bass parts that need to cut through to drive the tune, and a warm keyboard sound like a Rhodes can clutter that register up even if you're just playing a pad. The suggestions above (playing mid- or upper-register chords on two different sounds, EQing out low and low-mid frequencies) can both be effective. I've also found that if you do it at well-chosen moments, doubling the bass part exactly can be extremely effective, but I wouldn't want to do it for a whole tune unless there were a really compelling musical reason (thinking Doobie Brothers' "What a Fool Believes," where the bass basically plays the pre-arranged keyboard left-hand part). If you do decide to double the bass, phrasing and articulation are paramount to keep the groove consistent, and it's something you should work out with your bassist in rehearsal.

 

When I'm playing organ in a band setting, I rarely play bass notes at all (again, unless there's a compelling reason to accent the bass part exactly). I'll use my left hand for drawbar adjustments, Leslie speed changes, chordal stabs, percussive slaps, and occasional motion within chord pads (since you don't have the luxury of a sustain pedal to let you move as smoothly from voicing to voicing). But if you watch, say, Mark Stein with Vanilla Fudge, you'll see a lot of the time his left hand isn't on the keyboard at all during vocal sections. He's just playing a pad and singing.

 

With acoustic piano sounds, it can be a lot more tricky to figure out what works. Again, a lot of it depends on the style, and precedents set within that style. A lot of piano-driven rock or singer-songwriter music has the piano really hammering out the root notes of the chord in the left hand while the right plays chords and licks -- most Elton John, Billy Joel, Carole King, and Ben Folds tunes rely heavily on this approach. In this case, the band, and the bassist, often learns to fit around that; the piano usually isn't playing the bass part exactly, but is taking up a lot of low-end information, so the bass either plays solid and simple to fit into that, or will do more melodic parts to complement it. The idea there is that if you took away the band and just left the piano and voice, it would still sound like a complete song, so the band just brings more color and dynamics to the arrangement.

 

But someone like Chuck Leavell, during his time in the Allman Brothers, had a much more textural/supportive role while playing piano. He would occasionally play fat voicings with octaves in the left hand, but he'd also play delicately, playing midrange chords in the left hand while playing melodies higher up with his right hand (you can hear him move between both approaches in "Jessica"). Roy Bittan is all over the place with Bruce Springsteen, but he often plays two-handed chords and melodies in the upper register to get out of the murky midrange where the guitars, bass, and sax live. However, during a big build, in something like "Jungleland," you'll hear him introduce the lower register to add mass and power while you build into the band entrance.

 

I could talk about this all day (maybe I already have). Hopefully there are some useful ideas for you in there! Happy to talk about it some more if you're looking for more specifics.

 

 

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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I came up playing in bands with a bass player so I just organically developed my organ style particularly to stay out of the bassist's way, but when I play piano I always have a left hand bass line going. If I don't it throws off my rhythm and just feels wrong. These days I mostly play solo piano, so when I do occasionally sit in with a band I have to to watch it or I end up stepping on the bass player's toes. One way I work around this tendency is to use a split, or a second keyboard for my left hand and rather than filtering out the bass with eq, I just turn the volume way down on the left hand and let the muscle memory flail away down there, no harm no foul. Another way to contain your left hand urges is to keep it busy playing horn stabs or string parts or something so it doesn't have time to wander down the lower keyboard.

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

-Mark Twain

 

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Can you hear what the BP is playing, and is what you're playing complementing him?

 

If you're doubling an octave above, not good. If you're conflicting with him (register, rhythm, notes), not good. If your left hand is pounding out roots, not good.

 

Apart from that general observation, its hard to be specific without hearing you both play.

 

Try listening to the original studio recording of Celebration and pick out what Kevin Lassiter is playing...and just as important, what he's not playing. That might be enlightening as compared to what you were playing.

..
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Cover band ? Once you are in charge, and assuming he/she does not sing like an angel, fire the bass player.

 

Easy to replace the bassist, unless he is Tony Levin or some other skilled jazzer.

 

Sorry, bass players ;)

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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Cover band ? Once you are in charge, and assuming he/she does not sing like an angel, fire the bass player.

 

Easy to replace the bassist, unless he is Tony Levin or some other skilled jazzer.

 

Sorry, bass players ;)

 

We fired the keyboard player. We asked, explained, cajoled, no change. He could not stop mucking up the low end.

 

There should always be only one bassist.

Bassists who can lock a groove with the drummer are the reason the dance floor fills up.

 

A friend once told me "Whatever I play, don't play that."

it is excellent and solid advice for all musicians. Keyboards and guitars can collide as well but it is much easier to solve with timing, register shifts and most importantly, both parties realizing that they don't have to play everything all the time.

 

Everybody wanting to play all the time will flatline the music and songs will lack character.

Listen to successful popular music, collisions are very rare.

Silence is the greatest Art/Skill of a professional musician.

 

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I play with four different bassists. Two are absolute PIA's about the left hand and two don't care at all. For the two that are PIA's I move my left hand up one octave (for organ I just pull out 4 and 2 DB's and shut down 16 and 8 and can still play in the normal range). i also back off the bass on my mixer; this sometimes is enough on the non-organ channel.

 

+1!

"This is my rig, and if you don´t like it....well, I have others!"

 

"Think positive...there's always something to complain about!"

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a keyboard player can play bass. Locking into the groove is not that difficult. Playing bass with flair can be done.

That is my point. With basic , meat and potatoes material.

 

And more heresy. You can roll your own bass tracks. Of course, there has to be agreement.

 

The keyboard player may not want that role, true.. Or the band may want to fire the keyboard player.

A highly skilled bassist can be a great addition with an excellent drummer.

However, this is not my context and otherwise, not my assertion.

 

And its fun to take a different tack ;)

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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I think Sam covered this in his encyclopedic treatment of the topic, but some piano styles have to be two-handed and have to include the bass, otherwise you just can't get the right feel out of it. But I think that's a fairly limited exception to the general rule that keys should stay out of the bass player's way.

 

I've never played in a rockabilly band, but I suppose if I did I'd have an understanding with the bass player about how we'd work together given that I'd really have to have my left hand going in order for my right hand to work. There'd probably be a lot of whiskey involved.

 

Understanding that less is more is part of the usual learning curve for anyone new to playing keys in a band.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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I"m a bassist who quit to become a keyboardist, and my experience with bands over 30 years pretty much parallels what"s been said here. However, without venturing into joke territory, I would like to say a few words about bassists that you might encounter playing in bandsâ¦

 

It is not at all uncommon for bassists to be insecure about how seriously they are taken by the rest of the band. Generally, when a bassist and drummer find each other and lock in tight as a rhythm section, the two of them have more power as a unit than either would as a separate player. If you put those things together, you can run into a situation where the rhythm section defends its turf perhaps with more zeal than necessary.

 

In those cases, especially if you"re the new guy, diplomacy goes way beyond figuring out which parts you can and cannot play. When in doubt, lay out, until you have a really good idea of the personalities involved. If the rest of the band asks you where you are, politely tell them that you"re staying out of the way of the bassist until you"re comfortable with how the arrangement seems to be working. There"s no need to be confrontational. Just to make sure that everyone understands that you"re trying to be a team player.

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

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I play in several groups with the same bass player who appreciates that I generally stay out of his way, often sticking to right-hand parts. But we recently did a show of Queen covers - Freddie Mercury played a lot of left-hand octaves and it's a key part of the sound of his piano songs. So I agree with Majuscule that we shouldn't always avoid the bassist's range. I'd never join a band where I was forbidden to play left-hand parts at all - many songs depend on those parts.

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I hate the blanket statement that keyboardists should stay out of the bassist's range. It's myopic and untrue and should be challenged (with good playing and arranging) at every turn.

 

Right, but you're experienced, professional, and know how to approach the issue with bass players. I think it's good advice to someone who's new at the game that they should err on the side of staying out of the bass player's way at least until they have the confidence, skill, and reputation to do otherwise.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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I"m a bassist who quit to become a keyboardist, and my experience with bands over 30 years pretty much parallels what"s been said here. However, without venturing into joke territory, I would like to say a few words about bassists that you might encounter playing in bandsâ¦

 

It is not at all uncommon for bassists to be insecure about how seriously they are taken by the rest of the band. Generally, when a bassist and drummer find each other and lock in tight as a rhythm section, the two of them have more power as a unit than either would as a separate player. If you put those things together, you can run into a situation where the rhythm section defends its turf perhaps with more zeal than necessary.

 

In those cases, especially if you"re the new guy, diplomacy goes way beyond figuring out which parts you can and cannot play. When in doubt, lay out, until you have a really good idea of the personalities involved. If the rest of the band asks you where you are, politely tell them that you"re staying out of the way of the bassist until you"re comfortable with how the arrangement seems to be working. There"s no need to be confrontational. Just to make sure that everyone understands that you"re trying to be a team player.

 

 

Great post, especially "When in doubt, lay out."

As I said, we made repeated, friendly and positive attempts to work with the last keyboard player. He was a friend of mine and a friend of the drummer's so we had something at stake to keep it working.

It didn't work, habit overcame the group need for concise, clear presentation.

I was in a band with a keyboardist who played bass keys on his left hand. it worked great. If it is the keyboardist's job to play bass and they do it well, that's great.

 

I did say "There should only be one bassist."

There are always exceptions to rules but when you are in the trenches and playing songs on the fly (requests) there is no time to arrange or compose something that allows players to indulge their inclinations.

 

And, our keyboardist in the Motown tribute band I was in years ago did exactly as somebody above suggested, although he used two keyboards. He played piano and organ or added strings and horns. The bassist had his parts down solid and Skip directed his energies to other important areas.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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While I agree with all the suggestions as a general rule, it is interesting that the OP used Celebration as an example. On the original recording of the introduction and during the chorus, one can clearly hear that the Rhodes is copying the bass line during most of the 2 measure riff, then holding the I root, while the bass continues repeated notes on the root of I.

 

This is one example of a song where I think copying what is done in the studio works live (some but not all duplicating of bass lines). But this is a line that is easy and repeats in exactly the same notes and rhythm throughout the song, which means both the bass player and keyboardist can get into exact sync and rarely stray. While the keyboard player could easily arrive at muscle memory playing of just the right hand, I think it sounds better to duplicate on that section of this one particular song.

 

Generally, I would listen carefully, cut bass EQ, favor rootless chords, and enthusiastically invite the bass player to tell me if immediately if there are conflicts from his/her perspective, I would reserve the right to argue for occasional duplication, like on the chorus of Celebration.

 

Maybe the exception proves the rule, but there are legitimate exceptions nonetheless.

Barry

 

Home: Steinway L, Montage 8

 

Gigs: Yamaha CP88, Crumar Mojo 61, A&H SQ5 mixer, ME1 IEM, MiPro 909 IEMs

 

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Lots of good comments in this thread. I'm not a very skilled keys player (much better on sax) so I take my cues from the rest of the band and listen hard. I've been described as a good ensemble player. I don't play bass lines on keys and I keep my left hand away from the lower end of the keyboard. I mostly don't go below the octave below middle C. It just gets too muddy. Some rock and blues tunes require that you pound on the 1 and 5 in rhythm, but that's part of the sound and typically the bass is an octave lower and just thumping on the 1, so it works. Also, the guitar may be doing the same pattern. When you're all locked in together, it can rock like crazy. But if there's a moving bass line, you gotta get outta the way.
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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I hate the blanket statement that keyboardists should stay out of the bassist's range. It's myopic and untrue and should be challenged (with good playing and arranging) at every turn.

 

Right, but you're experienced, professional, and know how to approach the issue with bass players. I think it's good advice to someone who's new at the game that they should err on the side of staying out of the bass player's way at least until they have the confidence, skill, and reputation to do otherwise.

 

Yeah, there were already so many good points made that I figured I would just let my emotions get the best of me. :rawk::bang:

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While I agree with all the suggestions as a general rule, it is interesting that the OP used Celebration as an example. On the original recording of the introduction and during the chorus, one can clearly hear that the Rhodes is copying the bass line during most of the 2 measure riff, then holding the I root, while the bass continues repeated notes on the root of I.

 

This is one example of a song where I think copying what is done in the studio works live (some but not all duplicating of bass lines). But this is a line that is easy and repeats in exactly the same notes and rhythm throughout the song, which means both the bass player and keyboardist can get into exact sync and rarely stray. While the keyboard player could easily arrive at muscle memory playing of just the right hand, I think it sounds better to duplicate on that section of this one particular song.

This post made me listen to the recording closely. To me, this is an example where you want the bass and Rhodes to play the same riff together. It's a great riff and the 2 of them together just make it rock that much harder â it drives the dance beat, which is one reason this is such a popular cover. But if the Rhodes is not playing exactly in time and same notes as the bass, it will suck big time. The secret is to be playing the same thing tightly together and grooving hard. If you're not doing that, don't do anything at all related to the bass line.

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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Jazz legend Sonny Rollins doesn't use piano player a lot because as he say they are too big of an instrument and get in the way of other instruments. As a piano player you need to think like an arranger and come up with parts that fit the whole of the tune. If you have a bass player you can take advantage of that and not worry about holding up the bottom end and do more with midrange to upper end. EXCEPT if you have guitar players. Being issue for working with guitarist is they only range is the pianists favorite range. So all about working with they other instruments of the rhythm section.

 

Yes, I've been playing guitar and bass for decades and only recently started playing piano so very familiar with the issues.

 

Main thing work with the others, talk things out before hand, and listen to find range or part that fits and the others need to do the same.

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I've had the pleasure to work with quite a few good bass players, and the misfortune to play with quite a few bad ones. Through all of that, I've learned when and how to stay out of the bass player's way.

If I'm going to play down in the bass player's register, I'll do it with notes/rhythm that compliment the bass line, using a piano tone that is much brighter, so it does not muddy it up.

 

Other songs, I'll use chords in the left hand, up above the bass player's range, comping complimentary rhythms.

 

I've had bass players tell me right off the bat to lay off the left hand, but once we get started, nothing more is said.

 

As long as everyone respects not only their space, but everyone else's space as well, good things can happen.

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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While I agree with all the suggestions as a general rule, it is interesting that the OP used Celebration as an example. On the original recording of the introduction and during the chorus, one can clearly hear that the Rhodes is copying the bass line during most of the 2 measure riff, then holding the I root, while the bass continues repeated notes on the root of I.

 

This is one example of a song where I think copying what is done in the studio works live (some but not all duplicating of bass lines). But this is a line that is easy and repeats in exactly the same notes and rhythm throughout the song, which means both the bass player and keyboardist can get into exact sync and rarely stray. While the keyboard player could easily arrive at muscle memory playing of just the right hand, I think it sounds better to duplicate on that section of this one particular song.

This post made me listen to the recording closely. To me, this is an example where you want the bass and Rhodes to play the same riff together. It's a great riff and the 2 of them together just make it rock that much harder â it drives the dance beat, which is one reason this is such a popular cover. But if the Rhodes is not playing exactly in time and same notes as the bass, it will suck big time. The secret is to be playing the same thing tightly together and grooving hard. If you're not doing that, don't do anything at all related to the bass line.

 

Also, yes, this bears repeating. Considering the examples used... I'd say OP probably wasn't doing anything wrong. Maybe the groove needs to be tightened up and worked out a bit, but just saying GTFO my way is the opposite of the vibe, no matter the skill level or experience. Teamwork makes the dream work, you gotta feel good to make the music feel good, etc etc etc.

 

"Dude, your vibe is TOTALLY OFF." -Kiefer Shackelford

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