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Band Rehearsals - Sound Levels


drohm

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How many of you in rock bands rehearse using amps/monitors (i.e., no IEMs or headphones)? What do you find works well to control the sound levels so that everyone can hear well? Or is that really possible?

 

If you are using IEMs, what do you do with loud amps in the room? Also, anyone doing anything to quiet the drums? I need to tame a snare drum that is just too loud for the room.

 

Sorry, lots of questions. I have been playing in bands for a long time, but I keep coming back to this topic thinking it can be done better. I have a relatively large sound treated room, so not sure what more I can do there. Maybe it just comes down to the people and their willingness to play quieter. I often think it is actually the bass that causes the foundational problem. A loud bass seems to create a really high noise floor for everyone else and then they all want to turn up. THen the bass player wants to turn up....etc,.etc,....

 

Curious to know what folks here are doing to optimize it. - Thanks!

NS3C, Hammond XK5, Yamaha S7X, Sequential Prophet 6, Yamaha YC73, Roland Jupiter X

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It's a constant challenge, one that depends entirely upon the folks in the room. I find that drums and bass will naturally establish the minimum allowable volume, and then everything develops from there (for better or worse). Of course, the too-loud guitar player is a separate matter, but that's a thread in itself.

 

Most helpful suggestion I can offer is trying to discuss this right up front, hopefully before everyone even gets in the car to drive to rehearsal. Try to secure consensus that everyone wants a rehearsal where everyone can be clearly heard and you can actually communicate with each other during songs. If you can get that agreed, it's a start and a place to build from. For me, if I can't get that agreement, the rest of the jokers are amateurs and I don't want to invest my time.

 

At rehearsal, play the first tune and stop - see if everyone agrees that either 1) volume is sufficiently comfortable, or 2) which instruments are the offenders. It helps a lot to get more than one band member saying, "drums are too loud" or "bass is too loud". It helps it from becoming one vs. one. There are other "people management" techniques that can help, and that will build a positive band culture rather than the ego-driven narcissistic dysfunctional environment I have to run away from time to time.

 

Last observation from me for now: At the end of the day it comes down to musical maturity. Most (but not all) pros have the control to bring the fire at lower volumes, and have grown to realize that what they hear from the other band members is twice as important as whatever they might actually play. And you can't make someone into something they haven't become yet.

 

 

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Most helpful suggestion I can offer is trying to discuss this right up front, hopefully before everyone even gets in the car to drive to rehearsal. Try to secure consensus that everyone wants a rehearsal where everyone can be clearly heard and you can actually communicate with each other during songs. If you can get that agreed, it's a start and a place to build from. For me, if I can't get that agreement, the rest of the jokers are amateurs and I don't want to invest my time.

 

 

I second this. I actually often play self-defense and offer my living room for the rehearsal, with the caveat that "we'd have to keep the volume neighbor-friendly."

 

Short of both, I have no trouble starting a rehearsal by saying, "This is room is small, let's keep the volume down so we can all hear what's going on." Biggest perpetrator is usually the rock drummer, partially because guitar amps are directional enough to avoid the line of fire if necessary.

 

I have at least once, maybe twice, left a rehearsal where no one would adjust the insanely too-loud volume. I thought I was de facto "quitting" that gig, but in at least one case the singer called me afterward to say thank you and that he'd been trying to get the "the guys" to turn down himself.

 

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
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I"ve done it all. Often we rehearse at a local venue that likes us. They are a big winery with amphitheater type stage. They are closed during the week and they let us rehearse. They have house sound and monitors. One band we use acoustic guitars and I played quiet, no PA. The drummer didn"t sing and was too effing loud so we did have him at rehearsal. He thought it was because he was good. He quit before he got fired. I think he really knew. ð

 

Depends on what you need out of rehearsal. Do you want to work out arrangements and vocals or do the player need to practice. Not my current gig but several recent gigs the drummers had electronic kits the bass used DIs. The guitarist had sense. Those rehearsals worked great. If someone is a problem fire them.

 

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Bass amps are usually not made to tilt back.

The bassist ends up "listening" with their knees.

The low notes to tend to "bloom" a considerable distance from the bass amp.

 

Maybe the bassist just needs a long cord and a different place to stand so they can hear themselves? That or an amp stand.

 

Drummers can be way too loud also. Sometimes you can get them to play softly at practice but then they go all "Animal" on you at the gig. Murder is felony and there is no "drummer exemption", sad.

Our drummer plays at reasonable levels most of the time, we'll keep him. Sometimes he practices with a cajon, then we can turn WAY down and don't really need microphones for vocals. That is my favorite situation.

 

Some of us guitarists (me) bring a small amp and a stand and aim the speaker at our head (where our ears are). Then we can play at a much lower volume.

It is a fact that many guitar amps do not sound that good until they are way too loud. It can be difficult to get some folks to consider using different gear. Murder is a felony and there is no "guitarist exception", sad.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Yeah, I play with the loudest drummer in Honolulu. I wear ear protection at all times. He's a really good old-school feel drummer but he hits like a M****RF****R. Unfortunately, his volume level is proportional to how pissed off he is, and he's a Masshole Lawyer, so that's most of the time!

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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My current drummer uses electronic drums, not a problem. We can practice in a home with people watching television in another room. In another band I play in the drummer is rather loud, they practice in an external garage far from the house. I may quit playing with them, the drummer and the lead guitarist were made for each other.

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This is a struggle for our band right now. I hear much better at gigs than I do at practices, which is not ideal when you are trying to work up new material. Our drummer, like most, uses acoustic drums and that right there sets the level. He isn't as quiet as he could be quite honestly....

 

I'm going to use a sub mixer next practice and monitor my keys direct with my in-ears. For the other instruments and vocals, I'll either hang a mic out or get a feed from the PA (we practice in a spot that provides a PA...it's not the greatest and that contributes to the problem, clarity is iffy....). Loud amps and drums? not with my custom in-ears.

 

My suggestion (which I wish my own band would take up) is this for new tunes: work through them at least once "acoustically", or at least MTV unplugged style. Drummer can keep time on a cushion. The point is, before we go "all in", we need to get the song structure down...where the breaks are, how many measures before the chorus comes in etc. Instead it's yelling "HOLD ON!!!! WAIT!!!!" when we screw something up at jet engine volume. Drives me nuts. I know this approach will work, because we did exactly this for one practice when the drummer couldn't make it....we could work out the harmonies, talk about when that bridge was coming up, and so on.

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This is a struggle for our band right now. I hear much better at gigs than I do at practices, which is not ideal when you are trying to work up new material. Our drummer, like most, uses acoustic drums and that right there sets the level. He isn't as quiet as he could be quite honestly....

 

I'm going to use a sub mixer next practice and monitor my keys direct with my in-ears. For the other instruments and vocals, I'll either hang a mic out or get a feed from the PA (we practice in a spot that provides a PA...it's not the greatest and that contributes to the problem, clarity is iffy....). Loud amps and drums? not with my custom in-ears.

 

My suggestion (which I wish my own band would take up) is this for new tunes: work through them at least once "acoustically", or at least MTV unplugged style. Drummer can keep time on a cushion. The point is, before we go "all in", we need to get the song structure down...where the breaks are, how many measures before the chorus comes in etc. Instead it's yelling "HOLD ON!!!! WAIT!!!!" when we screw something up at jet engine volume. Drives me nuts. I know this approach will work, because we did exactly this for one practice when the drummer couldn't make it....we could work out the harmonies, talk about when that bridge was coming up, and so on.

 

Which brings up other options.

1. Everybody do their homework and show up at practice knowing the song and their parts. This never happens.

2. Keep the signature licks, play everything else however feels good and make sure the chorus is loud and clear. This does happen. I was in a Motown Tribute band, 2 lead singers, bass, drums, keys and guitar (keys and guitar sang backups). It is not possible to do an accurate rendition of a Motown production with horns, strings, choir, multiple percussionists, piano and organ, 3 guitarists etc. So you do what you can.

3. PPP, the Paid Practice Program. Just play gigs and wing it. Scary, been doing it off and on all my life. Thrilling when it comes together.

4. Musicians who are too loud can play in other people's bands.

 

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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This:

 

"It is a fact that many guitar amps do not sound that good until they are way too loud. It can be difficult to get some folks to consider using different gear. Murder is a felony and there is no "guitarist exception", sad."

 

The best thing to do is as previously suggested is to have small practice amps. The way to control the overall stage volume is to use the same small amps on stage to get "the sound" and run a cable for each amp into the FOH system. That way the stage volume is much lower and the PA covers the audience. Of course the drummer has to cooperate too. If he plays only loud enough to go along with the small amp stage volume, he may not be a happy camper. Its a constant struggle to keep the stage volume down to levels where everyone can hear each other and not destroy your hearing you will need the rest of your life.

 

The other thing my last band did was we would practice the harmony parts with the vocalists that sing in the band, using just an acoustic guitar to play the song, That way we could nail the harmonies and not be fooled believing we know our part when practicing with the entire group.

 

First work on a lower stage volume, then work on dynamics. Far too many bands do not have dynamics, they have one volume TOO LOUD.

 

 

Mike T/

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

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We play a lot of southern jam band rock and some blues and funk, so I don't mind things "reasonably" loud. However, when it is too loud for the room and you can not hear parts in order to have a musical conversation, then it becomes no fun. I put out the question to the others and am already getting some good suggestions. Drummer has has an electronic module and some extra trigger pads he will bring. Also going to swap out the snare for a maple one with a nice 70s warm tone. We can experiment with the bass - maybe DI and put monitor at head level. Good news is that everyone want to figure it out. The guitar player has a huge collection of low watt amps and loves to play them, so this works out great.

 

Thanks for the many suggestions. This was very helpful.

NS3C, Hammond XK5, Yamaha S7X, Sequential Prophet 6, Yamaha YC73, Roland Jupiter X

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My two bands rehearse in a large room all the time, and the volume is quite reasonable. It's actually quite pleasant to listen to. Get the sound right, and you'll all enjoy rehearsals much more.

 

The room is treated with acoustic foam, rugs and thick drapes. I bought a drum shield as we have this one drummer who hasn't learned to play quietly yet, but he's trying. It was about as expensive as a fancy effects pedal, and made a huge difference.

 

Guitarists are strongly encouraged to aim their amps at their ears, not their ankles. Much less likely for them to play loudly if it's their own eardrums they'll be blowing out first. Just last night, lead guitarist preparing to solo stomped on his boost pedal, way overcooked it, made an ugly face and immediately turned down. Nothing needed to be said.

 

I use a CPS SSv3 which fills the space nicely. All the vocals are fed through a small mixer to a Bose L1 Model 1S in one corner acting as a monitor. The first sign that volume levels are creeping up is that the vocalists start to complain they can't hear themselves. Well, you can only turn up the monitor so much before feedback results, so that's sort of the upper limit on loudness, after which folks have to turn down if they want to hear themselves sing.

 

The way we learn new material is to distribute pre-validated lead sheets ahead of time (not random internet junk), then play a recording through the monitor, with everyone playing very quietly behind it. A few times through that way, and the training wheels can come off. For 98% of the material we play, I don't use a lead sheet, preferring to learn by ear and memorize. Last night, the band learned 4-5 relatively easy songs that way.

 

I would second the comments about everyone being on the same page regarding volume levels. Since it's my rehearsal studio, it's not hard to enforce.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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I have no trouble starting a rehearsal by saying, "This is room is small, let's keep the volume down so we can all hear what's going on."

100% this, even if the room isn't small. In addition I have been known to simply ask colleagues to turn down if they're still too loud. Politely of course! Never an issue.

 

As many have already posted above, in my experience if one can keep the drummer and bassist in check it helps immensely.

 

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The two groups I play with are both in-ears situations. This is wonderful for many reasons. Loud acoustic drums being only one. The one group rehearses in my studio.

 

In my studio, guitar amps go into a Jackson AmpWorks 1x12 Iso cab for rehearsal. There's a Celestion Gold and two microphone holders inside. It knocks 30dB off the acoustic volume. So something screaming loud can barely be heard with the lid shut. It is easy to talk over it with it raging, ear-bleeding loud. Zero loss of tone, "sounds like a record" going into the in-ears. I have also taken this cab to gigs and it does the same magic there. Zero guitarist complaints, no change in feel or tone. In my studio, a powerful 50W tube amp fully delivers its magic, and can't be heard in the next room (unlike the acoustic drums!). If a guitarist won't use a modeling amp or turn down, this is a perfect solution. Zero compromise tonally. It is a a bit larger than a standard 1x12, but not as heavy as a 2x12, so it is very workable. In any live situation, the small leakage from the ISO cab is never heard between drums, PA, etc. It is possible to have real tube guitar goodness and still only have acoustic drums putting sound into the room.

 

Between stellar modeling amps like AXE-FX and Kemper, the huge range of great low power tube amps, and ISO cabs, and reactive speaker loads, there is no reason that electric guitars have to be loud to have full tone and feel. There are solutions even if modeling and speaker loads/sims are off the table.

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I currently rehearse with 3 bands, and will rehearse with a 4th next week. All bands rehearse with small practice amps at low volume so everybody can hear. My main band is classic blues, rock, R&B, soul. When we gig, I still want to be able to see people conversing in the audience. Same for the other bands. One of them is classic rock but with an amped acoustic guitar in the mix, another is amped acoustic guitar with amped stand-up bass. The band next week is country with female vocal. I will not play or rehearse with a band that cannot play at medium volume so that everyone can be heard. I think the older musicians I play with all understand this. It really doesn't even need to be discussed. If you're pros, you know how to manage volume, in your own playing and in the band as a whole.
These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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I play both guitar and keys in my projects. I have no on stage amplification at all. Rely entirely upon my IEM's to hear myself. For guitar I've gone with a Tech21 Fly Rig. Thing is 13" long and 21 oz. I run it through a BBE 882i for a little tone shaping and then XLR out of the Fly Rig direct to the snake. Keys are similar. Stereo out into my stereo DI, then to the snake. Our lead guitarist uses either a direct out of his floor board for smaller gigs or an Isolation cab. Bass is using an Ampeg monitor style wedge amp so it tilts up towards him, facing back. That sometimes can be an issue for the rest of us but we've gotten him on IEM's recently so that volume has dropped considerably. Having no monitor wedges at all is a huge plus as well. Gives the FOH tech much more control. The only real acoustic stage generator is the drums. He's on ears as well so he isn't feeling the need to go full Bonham. In rehearsals we usually are renting an hourly studio space, using the PA and amps provided...I still use only the PA to hear my keys. We established the understanding that we should be able to clearly communicate OVER the music. IF someone is too loud we all tend to discuss and adjust after a song or two without any drama or hurt feelings. It's all about hearing clearly. If you can't hear things, you can't effectively correct mistakes. Never quite understood the need to go deaf during rehearsals. Defeats the purpose of rehearsal, IMHO. When using rented gear it takes a little bit to dial it in but that is a key element in having a productive session.

Voyager, A Tribute to the Music of Journey - http:// www.facebook.com/voyageraz

Keys: Korg KronosX 88, M Audio Code 61, Novation Launchkey, Mainstage, Keyscape, Omnisphere

 

 

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I play guitar and bass too from time to time. I never use amps anymore. I keep my tube amps in storage, I probably will sell them someday. I have a Line6 helix system and a Elliot Transit B for bass. The current band I'm playing mostly keys in and everything goes into the mixer. The practice sound is exactly the same as the gig just not as loud. The guitarist in that band uses a Boss floor pedal GT1000 I believe. I can't express how much I appreciate not hauling heavy amps and speakers into a trailer. I just turned 60 and am having trouble with my knee.

 

In the 'other' band they use amps on stage and I play way more guitar with them, so to conform I use a carvin power amp and a full range cabinet that looks like an amp. My SP6 goes into a Mackie thump 12 in that band. Too me the bands stage sound sounds like ass to me. But I have heard recordings from out in front and stepped out using a wireless, its dramatically different. But I have come to the conclusion I'm not having fun, I have played with these guys 13 years so I'm torn. Their PA Speakers are very heavy too!

 

It takes awhile with the Helix to figure out the best sound with all the options available. But when its there you know it and its always the same no matter what volume. The only issue I have with these is sometimes you can get too many choices. The plus side is you can go from the sound of a bluesy vintage tube amp sound from the 1950's to Metallica in with a patch change.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

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Our drummer, like most, uses acoustic drums and that right there sets the level. He isn't as quiet as he could be quite honestly....

 

I've heard all the reasons why most drummers use acoustic drums, but there seems to be so many great benefits to use an electronic kit for casual gigs and certain venues. -volume control being one!

 

Sure, I've heard some electronic kits can be expensive, or the response is not the same, or can make a fella look like he's riding a tricycle instead of a motorcycle (questioning their manhood :rolleyes:)

 

But for many venues that are acoustic nightmares, it seems this could be a great solution.

Lenny
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I've been very fortunate that many of the bands I've played with over the years have used electric drums, and in some cases IEM's. My current metal band is probably the loudest I've rehearsed with, but the singer and I both use IEM's, so it doesn't bother me. We have a digital mixer we run everything through, so we can get our own mix (except those NOT on IEM's all hear the same mix).

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Sure, I've heard some electronic kits can be expensive, or the response is not the same

 

 

That is true of most instruments...many times you have to sacrifice a bit of playability for portability. Drummers seem especially resistant to the transition from acoustic to electronic, however. I'm no expert in V Drums. Perhaps the tech just hasn't caught up with the need on that front?

Voyager, A Tribute to the Music of Journey - http:// www.facebook.com/voyageraz

Keys: Korg KronosX 88, M Audio Code 61, Novation Launchkey, Mainstage, Keyscape, Omnisphere

 

 

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The drummers I've played with who played electric drums seem to like the Mesh heads (V Drums) the best. But I haven't met one yet who likes the electric cymbals. In fact most used acoustic cymbals with the electric drums.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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Sure, I've heard some electronic kits can be expensive, or the response is not the same

 

 

That is true of most instruments...many times you have to sacrifice a bit of playability for portability. Drummers seem especially resistant to the transition from acoustic to electronic, however. I'm no expert in V Drums. Perhaps the tech just hasn't caught up with the need on that front?

 

I used to own a top-of-the-line V-drums setup. I now have two very fine custom acoustic drum sets, significantly more expensive than the best V-drums. There is no comparison. The feel of real heads is part of what makes it work for double strokes and other techniques. Can you do them on mesh? Sure. It isn't the same. The head tension is different on every drum - they each feel different. The same sensitivity that is in our hands for keyboards and keybeds applies to sticks and heads. This is especially true on a tight drum like a snare drum. Sadly it is also the loudest drum. But there is no e-drum kit that supports the expression that a real snare drum has. Not even close.

 

The metal work is also poorly emulated in V-drums. I've done live sound for years. Speakers just don't do what cymbals release into a room. The hi-hat is one of the most expressive instruments within the kit. It is also very poorly emulated by all electronic drums in terms of the expression that can be done on it. The low volume cymbals that are full of holes sound absolutely wretched. I cannot abide them. I do love very thin cymbals made for acoustic music. Paiste paperthins? Yes please, I have the set! Just exquisite tone at low to moderate volume. But you can't bash them - they'll crack. But if you play to the cymbal? Superb tone at acoustic volumes. Cymbals for heavy metal? They are so heavy they have to be crushed to make tone and are still harsh and cutting - they have to be to get through a wall of distorted guitar. My thin acoustic cymbals wouldn't even be heard in that context.

 

The other thing that one immediately notices after playing acoustic drums and then an e-kit is that it doesn't feel like a drum set. A real drum set is a physical experience. There's a reason drummers talk about playing a certain "feel". At even medium volume, every hit on a snare drum hits you right in the chest. Good grooves FEEL GOOD on one's body in a very visceral way. There is a "thing" about how the body feels moving to the groove and the feeling of the sound on the body. The best sound of the kit is out front several feet, but the drums are FELT and heard, even at modest volume. This is part of what makes playing drums just superbly enjoyable. I didn't understand until I started playing. Sometimes I sit behind my kit and just hit things because they sound and feel so good!

 

That said, acoustic drums vary a LOT in their dynamic range and response. Most typical production laminate kits are made for very loud playing. They have heavy pot metal hardware that weighs the shells down. This means that the resonance is excited under harder strokes, and it dies quickly. Fine stave or segmented drums with lightweight hardware are a revelation - often weighing half what a factory kit does. They make full, beautiful tone when barely touched. It is possible to play softly and still enjoy full and satisfying tone without high velocity play. This is not the case on many drum sets. Drummers are musicians too, and are often going for best tone, even when it is too much - they can't just change instrument mid song. In some cases, better tone is in kits that are made for acoustic playing, not mic'd stadiums. Most drummers have never played on these kits, but they offer gorgeous musical sound at all dynamic levels and a resonance that is just gorgeous.

 

E-drums do solve a problem, and allow a mostly silent stage. They do allow a lot of kit variety for electronic genres. They are a dream to mix from FoH. For basic groove playing, they deliver the sound. For expressive, sensitive playing, they lack a lot. They are not very satisfying to play as a player, but the mesh heads are WAY better than pads. They aren't like a nice Nord Grand is to a typical live piano. They are like a crappy consumer keyboard is to a concert grand. It's a big gap in terms of musician satisfaction. Adding real cymbals helps a lot. A real snare would get most of the way there, but then the snare is the loudest thing on the kit....

 

But, it is undeniable that SPL is a problem with acoustic drums. My drums really don't play softer than 85dB in a song context, which is about "mf" on my Kawai RX-7. They easily hit 110dB behind the kit. Acoustic drums start at "f" and go to "fff" with far greater ease than a piano. It's what they do outside of cymbal washes and such. Brushes, bundles of sticks, chopsticks, etc. will all bring the level down. But you also lose feel, ability to execute certain techniques, the tone changes, etc. It takes a lot of disciplined practice, lighter sticks, excellent tuning and appropriate heads and drums to get an excellent low volume sound. Stopped cymbal hits, etc. Just like guitar players (and keys players), some drummers are consummate and sensitive musicians and very interested in this journey and others just want to bash out rock and roll.

 

I used to think they were roughly fungible in the way a top stage piano is to a real piano. But they are not. E-drums are a different instrument. Valid. Expressive in a different way. Useful. But different. For some genres, e-drums are perfect and the correct tool. For others, especially the closer one gets to acoustic music, there is no substitute for acoustic drums. For practice in almost every environment except a dedicated space? E-drums have a big place. Much better to practice regularly than only play once every week or two! But for a player, I completely understand why few prefer an e-kit if they can have and play acoustic.

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Every band I'm in has a different solution/set of problems. One band the drummer has electronic drums for rehearsal- easy to keep the volume down there. My Pink Floyd band everyone uses their stage setup and we have a small PA for vocals. It's in a decent sized basement room that has some sound absorbing stuff in it. It can get kinda loud but not too bad- you have to play to the volume of the drums. The other band I'm rehearsing with is a 7 piece which includes 2 horns, in a small room but it's really sound proofed and everyone keeps the volume down pretty well.

Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1

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:rimshot::roll: :roll:

 

This discussion has turned exactly into the same discussions we keyboard players have about actions.

I was going to say, is this debate any different than acoustic piano vs. digital piano? Is playing a digital a compromise? Sure. But there are advantages to the digital which make it preferable in many instances.

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