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new rig daydreaming - recommendations?


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So I'm daydreaming about a better live rig - I figure most of us who gig regularly do this. And I'm curious about the wisdom of this crowd and recommendations.

 

Current

For several years my rig is Kronos 73 (original) and Nord Wave. I've gigged the Kronos since 2011(replaced the keybed myself this year) and the Wave since 2012.

 

What I like: the Kronos has an enormous palette of sounds. The Wave offers easy, simple sampling. The EPs in the Kronos are awesome. The Wave cuts through just about any mix, and complements the sound of the Kronos wonderfully. The unweighted keys of the Wave do organ sim (I feed a dry organ patch through a Lester K, it's all the organ I ever use). Between the Kronos and the Wave, I have been able to come up with just about any synth sound I need to gig live.

 

What I don't like: the acoustic pianos in the Kronos are my least favorite of anything I own. It's heavy. Even with the new keys, it is summarily uninspiring to play. The Wave is short (49 keys). Patch navigation on the Wave is a PITA. And the Kronos is too heavy.

 

I play in several different bands. I'm MD in two of them, and there are a variety of jazz, funk and dance bands I play in regularly to occasionally. I need great EPs, great APs, a little bit of organ and a variety of synth sounds. I also need the occasional sample, which needs to be fast and easy to import from a computer. I use a Key Largo for mixing, mounted on a pedal board with Lester K and damper pedals. Occasionally use a keytar, vocal processer or other toys. Stand is a KM Baby Spider. Two DXR8s round out the rig. It all fits on one RnRoller cart, one trip from the SUV.

 

Desires

I want a lighter rig. I want to keep it as a two-board affair. I want something more inspiring to play than the Kronos. I want better APs. It all needs to fit on one Rock n Roller cart trip as it does now. I'd like some more keys on top than 49 if possible. I'm okay programming but appreciate the practicality of having a lot of sounds to start with. This rig is all about live performance - I have other toys and software for sound design, recording and other types of musical projects. I already have a dedicated stage piano for my straight ahead jazz gigs.

 

Initial thoughts

Some likely suspects as candidates:

 

Nord Stage

Nord Electro

MODX

Crumar Seven

??

 

Any cool ideas? Thanks in advance.

 

Tim

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The Kurzweil PC4 will solve the weight problem with some great piano and classic keys, plus a passable organ if you"re not looking for cutting edge. The action is definitely a compromise for weight"s sake but many folks seem to think it"s worth it. The Virtual Analog side of things isn"t going to fool anyone, but it can cover a few needs in a pinch, and the new FM support is phenomenal. 2GB of flash memory for additional samples should meet your sampling needs. Lots of goodness in a single, versatile keyboard.

 

Perhaps pair it with a true poly analog like a a Prophet 6 or OB-6? Both are of the dreaded 49-key variety, but it"s one way to go.

Acoustic: Shigeru Kawai SK-7 ~ Breedlove C2/R

MIDI: Kurzweil Forte ~ Sequential Prophet X ~ Yamaha CP88 ~ Expressive E Osmose

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One possibility:

 

Replace Kronos with Kurzweil PC4. Personally, I think the PC4 action works better for piano than the RH3 as implemented in the Kronos. You can send its organ out the assignable out to your Lester K. Besides the nice EPs that come with it, there's also a set of Purgatory Creek downloadable EPs. So for your purposes, this could be a 28 lb direct replacement for the Kronos. Replace Wave with Studiologic Sledge to maintain a knobby synth that works with imported samples but gives you 5 octaves and (I think) better patch recall, and is still light weight (though not compact). Disclaimer: while PC4 and Sledge both allow import of user samples, I have no experience doing it and can't speak to ease relative to the Wave. If budget isn't an issue, go for the Nord Stage 3-73 instead of the Sledge, which has the Nord simplicity of sample management, still with a good amount of knobiness and more than 5 octaves of keys, and decent (if not outstanding) patch recall facility... and good enough organ that you can skip the Lester K, and don't have to bother with MIDI to play your organ from your non-hammer action. (You may want to play its pianos from the PC4, though, which would bring MIDI back into it.)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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If the MODX6 or 7 can handle your toughest synth requirements, then a Nord Stage or Electro with the 73 key waterfall keyboard will give you a large palette of APs an EPs and an organ with drawbars in a light two-board setup. The synth in the Stage is pretty flexible too.

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Considering your lighter weight requirements - my first choice for the bottom board would be: Kurzweil PC4, followed by MODX8 (I would load Purgatory Creek EP's in both of them anyway).

For the upper board - Nord Stage 3 Compact if organ is important, or Novation Summit if organ is not important.

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I echo the PC4 idea. Its not only amazing, but amazing for the price. Its also a step in a non-Kronos direction with little risk of any truly honking lacks in the sound set. Its too new to define as fully as I know we'd like and the price is rather dear, but the Roland Fantom seems quite comprehensive. I've seen two sound-only demos that made me a believer. If the Kronos has worn thin for you, the Fantom seems to fight in the same weight class. Might be a bit of overkill for your needs. In my view, if you need a second stage piano for a 2-piece rig, the Crumar topped with a MODX makes good sense. That also partly depends on how much time it will take to get a handle on the MODX's OS. I'm a bit wary of their touchscreen, but its such a well-thought-out instrument, I wouldn't dismiss it.

 "I want to be an intellectual, but I don't have the brainpower.
  The absent-mindedness, I've got that licked."
        ~ John Cleese

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If you're OK with the CX3 engine and like the setlist mode, consider going to a Kronos 61, paired up with your favorite weighted DP within your weight limits. Run audio and MIDI into the Kronos and you can use combi mode in the Kronos to set wheather audio of the piano gets mixed with the other sounds, or if the DP controls sounds in the Kronos, or any combination you want, all still controlled by setlist mode.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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If you're OK with the CX3 engine and like the setlist mode, consider going to a Kronos 61, paired up with your favorite weighted DP within your weight limits. Run audio and MIDI into the Kronos and you can use combi mode in the Kronos to set wheather audio of the piano gets mixed with the other sounds, or if the DP controls sounds in the Kronos, or any combination you want, all still controlled by setlist mode.

 

I think Dan's on the money here. You won't have to start over with programming since you already have a Kronos. Pair a 61 key version with a PX3000, and you've got a pretty light rig that's very capable. I haven't heard it, but hopefully its piano is better than what the Kronos offers (I too am not a fan). The Kronos can certainly handle all the splits and assignments of what sounds are where on which board.

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My colleague's rig seems to be pretty similar to what you are seeking: Nord Stage 3 + King Korg, through a Key Largo and out to FOH. Sounds fantastic and mirrors my own Nord Electro 5D + Mainstage rig pretty closely... in a two-keyboard band, our sounds are similar enough to blend but different enough to be separate from the other.

 

Another option would be Yamaha CP73/CP88 + Kronos 61 on top.

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Do I remember correctly that you have an OB6 Tim? Or did I made that up?

 

In that case getting a Nord Stage 3 and combining it with the OB6 into a keylargo would be killer IMO. But maybe doesn't help you enough in terms of weight....

Rudy

 

 

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I like Dan's idea of a Kronos 61, which means minimal reprogramming/learning curve, and a lightweight DP. If you like the Casio AP sounds (and action) then the lack of 5-pin DIN MIDI on the latest range isn't a problem. You keep strong patch navigation (set list) on the Kronos, five octaves (vs 4 on the Wave), and the whole rig is a lot lighter. Or if 88 notes is too much, Yamaha P121 gives you 73 hammer-action keys downstairs.

 

Otherwise, my thoughts turned to a MODX6 or 7, provided its mediocre organ is sufficient. Again a lightweight DP underneath (do I remember that the latest OS update allows USB MIDI host ability? If so, cheap Casio/Yamaha is an option). Strong piano, plus FM.

 

Kurzweil PC4 seems nice if you can connect with the action and overall size. It's a bit heavier than the Casio 88, but not unbearably, and organ is better than MODX. Personally, if I've got that much firepower in a board, I'd want it upstairs where I can easily reach all the controls. YMMV.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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Let me offer caveats to my suggestion. Since I often complain that people on here often offer suggestions that only consider their own narrow world, I don't want to do the same.

 

My suggestion requires setting everything up ahead of time and is not good for "on the fly" setting up sample splits and what-not.. the Nord stuff is WAY better for that. You've used both so I assume you already understand the difference and I'm speaking of the Kronos being the sort of control center. Other people may not like doing it that way. Just wanted to be clear.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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I play in maybe 5-6 semi-regular groups that cut across a broad spectrum musically, using only a Nord Stage 3 Compact to generate sounds. I tend to rely a whole lot on APs, medium on DPs and organ, and tend to use the synth sparingly, except when we're playing more modern stuff. Half the time I can get away with a synth sample, the other half of the time I dive into the NS3C synth section, which although fun can make time magically disappear.

 

I'm sure you are aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the NS3C, but one of the things I've come to deeply appreciate is its inherent simplicity: both the board itself as well as the rig that supports it.

 

For example, I have each and every group's setlist programmed sequentially into my NS3C. I just go from song to song, and it's all there. Realtime tweaking when needed isn't something I need to think much about as all the relevant knobs are right there and I know where they are. Easy to skip and jump around as well.

 

There's something like 500 slots in Song Mode. Band #1 has the range 1-99, Band #2 has 100-199 and so on. Editing and re-arranging the regular changes doesn't take much time once it's all entered for the first time. Behind that, there's maybe a universe of 50 or so patches I've come up with.

 

I run a single pair of stereo out from the NS3C, zero external effects needed. For example, my Vent II stays home as it's just not worth the bother. If its a gig where I'd prefer a weighted board, I bring one and use the A/B panel feature so it's just a single Nord making all the sounds. Many gigs I'm using only my trusty CPS SSv3 on stage, and hand the mono out to sound person. Very often, no need for an external mixer so the Key Largo stays home as well.

 

Just about as simple as it gets with no serious compromises. Two boards, two pedals, three cables, the SSv3, seat and stand and I'm good to go 95% of the time. And for the fill-in gigs, the weighted board stays home, so even simpler.

 

I haven't spent any time seriously considering the newer boards (PC4, MODX, Fantom) because -- well -- the NS3C meets all my needs across an incredibly wide range of gigging situations. I always seem to have the right sounds in the right combination at the right time.

 

Best of luck!

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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Personally, if I've got that much firepower in a board, I'd want it upstairs where I can easily reach all the controls.

The choice of keyboard stand can make a big difference here, With a stand like my oft-mentioned K&M 18880 with the top tier arms flipped backwards, or the old Invisible stands, you can easily access all your bottom board's controls.

 

As a related aside, I prefer shallow bottom boards because I like to keep the keys of the two boards close together, but it's not a deal-breaker, and at the moment I've sacrificed that to put a PC4 on bottom. I actually considered using PC4 on top and putting a shallow non-hammer board on bottom, but the height of the PC4 chassis (i.e. from bottom of chassis to top of keys) created a significant distance between the two keybeds anyway, just in a different direction, I still wasn't close to the "two manual Hammond" kind of feel, so it didn't buy me any real benefit, it merely greatly restricted my choice of second boards!

 

As for how far back you have to put a second board over a PC4 witout obstructing access to its controls, a nice surprise benefit of the PC4 is that it's control panel is not particularly deep. Of course, it's not super small like a Privia, but among boards with more extensive control surfaces, the PC4 only requires about 5 1/2" accessible between the back of the keys and the rear-most controls. Not only is this far less than many other hammer action boards, it's actually even noticeably less than numerous NON-hammer boards, including the Artis 7, Nords Stage 3-73, Kronos 61, MODX6/7.

 

As an aside... some people have suggested pairs of boards where neither has a hammer action. That certainly can keep the weight minimal, but my impression is that may be a bridge too far for the OP, who wants to change in part because of dissatisfaction even with the hammer action he has. But if that's a possibility, yeah, there are some other ways to go...

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Thank you all for so many good suggestions and food for thought.

 

I'd not really had Kurzweil previously in consideration. While I fell in love with the sound of the K-series back in the K2000/K2500 days, and still have a K2600XS sitting right by me, my love affair with Kurzweil and VAST soured considerably with the PC361, primarily due to reliability issues. Then when Kronos came out, there was no reason to consider going back to them. I understand things have changed with Forte and PC4, may behoove me to reconsider the brand.

 

I'm tempted to say i could live with two unweighted boards in this rig - but I think Scott is right. It's a bridge too far as I'm still a piano player at heart.

 

I just tried something up in my office - the Casio PX-S3000 on the bottom run to my Kronos 73 on top.

 

It's a joy to play the Kronos sounds from the Casio keyboard. Even the uninspiring acoustic pianos of the Kronos are much more enjoyable from the Casio. And yes, as a result I've fiddled with all the velocity map settings on the Kronos - but the Casio is just a superior piano keybed to the RH3, I mean, head and shoulders to my fingers.

 

So yeah, I could run the Casio audio out into the Kronos, and see how the Casio's concert grand sounds relative to the Korg. The difficult thing is the Kronos Rhodes are still far superior (and to my ears, the Yamaha CP88/73's are quite superior to the Kronos').

 

And then to run the config Dan is suggesting means I need to rethink how I set up combis, etc.

 

And this setup still has me schlepping the Kronos 73 around, which is quite a substantial beast. I wish the Casio had a native best-in-class Rhodes to accompany what to my ears is a first-rate acoustic piano experience. Then I could go unweighted up top (Kronos? MODX?) and be back to a simple two-board, unconnected rig of light weight.

 

Still mulling over all your great suggestions....

 

Tim

 

 

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this setup still has me schlepping the Kronos 73 around, which is quite a substantial beast. I wish the Casio had a native best-in-class Rhodes to accompany what to my ears is a first-rate acoustic piano experience. Then I could go unweighted up top (Kronos? MODX?) and be back to a simple two-board, unconnected rig of light weight.

Casio PX5S and PX560 probably have their best Rhodes (between the ones that come with them, and the ones you can download from the casio forums). Kawai ES110 and the already mentioned MODX8, CP73, and PC4 would be other potential lightweight piano+EP boards you could put under a Kronos 61 or whatever...

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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So I'm daydreaming about a better live rig - I figure most of us who gig regularly do this. And I'm curious about the wisdom of this crowd and recommendations.

Tim

My recommendations:

Piano: Yamaha. No other piano can cut through. CP300 or CP4.

Organ : SK1 with Leslie or effects.

 

Everything else can be handled within these two. EP is killer on the CP's with editing but you could buy the Seven for the Rhodes.

 

I would never allow a Korg product near my house (worse allergic reaction than Cat Piss).

J a z z  P i a n o 8 8

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Montage8 | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven

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I"ve been contemplating a similar change. I guess for OP, I wonder how important it is for you to have analogue knobby synth?

 

This is what I"m thinking for myself, if the PC4 has a good weighted keyboard feel to me, I"d consider getting the PC4 as a lower board and the MODX7 as the upper board. Well, another 'if', not sure I"d be satisfied with the KB3 sound for B3 and I might miss the Kronos?

 

These two boards are light at 28 and 16 lbs and would give a wide range of options, with the possible exception of a great organ sound.

 

Some interesting thoughts on this thread...

 

Yamaha C2, Yamaha MODX7, Hammond SK1, Hammond XK-5 Heritage Pro System, Korg Kronos 2 61, Yamaha CP4, Kurzweil PC4-7, Nord Stage 3 73, Nord Wave 2, QSC 8.2, Motion Sound KP 210S,  Key Largo, etc…yeah I have too much…

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What I don't like: the acoustic pianos in the Kronos are my least favorite of anything I own. It's heavy. Even with the new keys, it is summarily uninspiring to play.

 

This is what struck me in your post. I had a Kronos 73 and replaced it with a MODX8 for reasons of weight and piano sounds. So I think in your shoes I'd go for a Kronos 61, familiar interface and you don't throw away all those patches you've programmed or set up, and a DP that is inspiring to play.

 

Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals

 

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I had the Kronos 73 and sold it about 6 months ago. I loved playing it. Even liked the action but it was too heavy. I got an MODX8. Sure the action isn"t a good as the montage or cp series but i use it on 90% of gigs now. I don"t feel like I"m settling for a lesser action on the modx. It"s more than fine for me and I"ve been pretty picky over the years about keybeds.

 

I also have the Casio px s3000 as I see you have. This sounds palette on this could get me through a lot of the gigs but the interface is very fiddly and I don"t find it works well for editing on the fly in live situations. However seeing as you have an s3000 would you consider that as your main board and a MODX 6/7 as your second board? The 6/7 series are very light and you still have all the faders and touch screen to work with if the Casio can"t do sufficient midi stuff. Only issue is the Casio is quite narrow so not much space to rest the modx on top so you"d have to have it on stand extension. Alternatively you could use an iPad Pro with the Casio?

Yamaha MODX8, Legend Live.
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I think you should consider a simple, bullet-proof laptop rig with a true analog synth on top (OB6/Prophet 6?) and a simple controller piano which inspires you (Stage Compact 73/Yamaha CP73?) on the bottom. If 61 keys on top are truly important, you could consider a Rev2, but I'd say give the discrete synth a chance.

 

It's time brother. :rocker:

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I"ve been contemplating a similar change. I guess for OP, I wonder how important it is for you to have analogue knobby synth?

 

This is what I"m thinking for myself, if the PC4 has a good weighted keyboard feel to me, I"d consider getting the PC4 as a lower board and the MODX7 as the upper board. Well, another 'if', not sure I"d be satisfied with the KB3 sound for B3 and I might miss the Kronos?

 

These two boards are light at 28 and 16 lbs and would give a wide range of options, with the possible exception of a great organ sound.

Reply moved to the Kurzweil PC4 thread.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I agree with a Kronos 61 up top as a familiar workflow and to preserve continuity.

 

A MODX8 on the bottom would reduce the weight and provide a wide palette of sounds/performance features too.

 

KB rig reconfiguration can be fun and inspiring. Good luck. :thu::cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Lately I've been using a Stage 3-76 on the bottom, and Kronos 61 up top. It's a relatively lightweight rig with a lot of firepower. Seems that's a popular combination here for a few other folks as well. I've moved away from using MIDI and a computer/tablet-based rig, and just play the two instruments.

 

Another on-top option for you could be an FA-06/07 or Fantom 6/7. And I do find the PC4 suggestions for bottom keyboard intriguing.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

We need a barfing cat emoticon!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I would never allow a Korg product near my house (worse allergic reaction than Cat Piss).

Hilarious. I felt the same way for a couple decades before I bought my Korg SV-1. :laugh:

 

IMO, the Kronos is the best ROMpler/workstation Korg has produced.

 

Still funny to read the quote above. :D:cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Lately I've been using a Stage 3-76 on the bottom, and Kronos 61 up top. It's a relatively lightweight rig with a lot of firepower. Seems that's a popular combination here for a few other folks as well. I've moved away from using MIDI and a computer/tablet-based rig, and just play the two instruments.

 

Insert Forte 7 in place of Stage 3-76 and that's my live rig. It covers EVERYTHING I need. The Forte 7 keybed is excellent. With the recent Forte update, it just got even a little better.

 

All my other keyboards are for "specialty" use, giving me a specific tools for a specific project/gig.

 

Kurzweil Forte 7, Mojo 61, Yamaha P-125,

Kronos X61, Nautilus 73

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[quote=aellison62

Insert Forte 7 in place of Stage 3-76 and that's my live rig. It covers EVERYTHING I need. The Forte 7 keybed is excellent. With the recent Forte update, it just got even a little better.

 

All my other keyboards are for "specialty" use, giving me a specific tools for a specific project/gig.

 

The Forte 7 is another strong option; it's come a long way since 2015. Easily the deepest all-around synth engine in hardware. I eventually chose the Stage 3-76 vs the Forte, for an all-around 76. I had plenty of deep synth coverage in other places, and loved the immediacy of the Stage's front panel. Never quite connected with the velocity response on the Forte's pianos, but my ears seem to require a micro-delay when it comes to digital piano velocity response. So I relate better to Roland SN pianos, some of the Yamaha samples, and a couple of the more recent Nord pianos. The Forte 7 has plenty of fans, though. Jim Alfredson has taken it to a high art; definitely check out his Pink Floyd tribute rig video.

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

We need a barfing cat emoticon!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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