Keyboard for LH bass

[rickp]

I've enjoyed the two-board approach you've mentioned too for LH bass (and by "enjoyed," meaning primarily because two is much simpler than three!), and although I used a S03 on top as a dedicated bass board for several years, after the SK1 was introduced, I've approached it in the opposite way, i.e., putting the split board on the bottom rather than the top. Part of that approach is due to the bottom board usually being the bigger board with more real estate for splitting (and generally, at least in the past, being the boards with more aux out options), and partly because in addition to occasionally using the top board standalone, I've generally midi'd the bottom board out to the top and used a control pedal to bring the top board (such as an SK1, kicked up an octave) in and out as a layer - or by using ring and little finger of right hand for organ chording and rest of right hand for piano comps, modulating the organ volume with the control pedal (I know, that sounds awkward, but it can work).

 

Which brings me to what I think is essential for LH bass players if they are trying to make the most of their RH as well, and that is making full use of a full array of pedals to keep both hands on the keys as much as possible. I share some of your skepticism of the Stage 3 as an ideal choice for a LH bass board, but it DOES offer a footswitch for Leslie speed, two control pedals that allow one to be used to control organ volume/presence plus another control pedal to control another layer's volume/presence or wah or morphing sound or other parameters (and what's up with only one control pedal, Kronos?) an up AND down program change footswitch function (and the changes are seamless if you've level matched the programs well - this function alone can make the RH much more versatile and useful within a song), and, with the triple pedal unit, a sustain pedal, soft pedal for added dynamic control, and a sostenuto pedal for selectively sustaining. All of that of course means nothing if a board can't be effectively programmed to take full advantage of those options, and I'm finding the Stage 3 to be fairly easy to do just that, largely because it is so easy to tweak live - just make the adjustments you would make live if you had the hand (and perhaps time) availability, and then save it to a program. Use the song menu function to group the programs where needed to effectively use the up/down program footswitch during a song, and you're all set.

 

BUT, for a LH bassist (and I suspect that's what many of us have become) trying to make full use of their right hand as well, the lack of a user definable bass split point is irritating, particularly if playing walking bass parts that can consume three octaves (songs like All of Me or A-Train in a trio that plays some standards); you should be able to define a bass cutoff precisely at the very top of the range needed to maximize the range reserved for the right hand (and the cross-fade is great maybe for subtle layering but I'm finding it suboptimal for bass use). The ability to easily shift the octaves for RH parts programming helps - but can result in some mental gymnastics if the right hand ends up playing with octave shifts to compensate for an ill-placed split point. So the Stage 3 suffers there. And true, bass using up the synth slot on one panel (I put it on panel B, with a supplemental volume control for it assigned to the mod wheel just in case my preprogrammed volumes are off a bit - that way, everything I'm wanting to do with RH or on full keyboard when splits are off is always visible on panel A) leaves only one synth, but I think I can live with that ok - there is compromise though in which panel A voices will utilize the effects and it's all for one and one for all as far as reverb and compression are concerned. And true, the live performance orientation compromises some of the depth of programming available - but it so far seems to be in areas acceptable for those compromises. So I share your skepticism of the Stage 3 and other aspects of it are not so gently nagging as well - and yet I'm still thinking that it's currently the best all around choice for a one-board solution with LH bass (in fairness though, part of that is based on its form factor - 42 pounds and short enough to fit in most rear car seats - Forte is a VERY close contender though in all respects, including this one).

 

[Shamanczarek]

For some reason audiences are way more impressed when I play LH bass in an L configuration. I usually only do it on a couple of songs but the visual aspect of seeing you turn sideways and spreading your arms to play two separate Keyboards has much more impact than doing it on a stack or split Keyboard. Even musicians I know have commented on it. It makes it seem to people like you you are doing more even though the result is the same.

[AnotherScott]

I share some of your skepticism of the Stage 3 as an ideal choice for a LH bass board, but it DOES offer a footswitch for Leslie speed, two control pedals that allow one to be used to control organ volume/presence plus another control pedal to control another layer's volume/presence or wah or morphing sound or other parameters (and what's up with only one control pedal, Kronos?) an up AND down program change footswitch function

And aftertouch! Something else that helps compensate for the unavailability of another hand.

 

yet I'm still thinking that it's currently the best all around choice for a one-board solution with LH bass

As I explained in the OP, I'd generally prefer the Artis7 for a one-board solution with LH bass, though it is a shame there's no aftertouch.

 

(in fairness though, part of that is based on its form factor - 42 pounds and short enough to fit in most rear car seats - Forte is a VERY close contender though in all respects, including this one).

Yes, if you want a hammer action and are willing to go beyond my 30 lb weight limit, that changes things. Not exceeding 42 lbs, the Forte 7 is probably a strong choice, if you don't need the full 88... which is likely the case as LH bass makes the lowest 7 keys of an 88 not so necessary anyway. For lower weight and/or lower price (and a full 88 keys), I'd look at the Roland FA-08, but it is unfortunately almost 56" wide. I'd run the organ to the sub out and put it through a Vent, and wouldn't really miss the live drawbar controls since I wouldn't have a hand to operate them anyway.

 

ETA: There's also the boards I mentioned in the OP... MOXF8, SP6, PX560, all of which are light and narrow for 88s. MOXF8 is a tremendously flexible board, lagging only in organ. I haven't played an SP6 but from what I can tell, it should be pretty well suited for this, and probably better than the PX560 at about the same price and weight.

 

[rickp]

I share some of your skepticism of the Stage 3 as an ideal choice for a LH bass board, but it DOES offer a footswitch for Leslie speed, two control pedals that allow one to be used to control organ volume/presence plus another control pedal to control another layer's volume/presence or wah or morphing sound or other parameters (and what's up with only one control pedal, Kronos?) an up AND down program change footswitch function

And aftertouch! Something else that helps compensate for the unavailability of another hand.

Yes indeed! I use it to change leslie speed; it's like having a third foot or hand . . .

 

(in fairness though, part of that is based on its form factor - 42 pounds and short enough to fit in most rear car seats - Forte is a VERY close contender though in all respects, including this one).

Yes, if you want a hammer action and are willing to go beyond my 30 lb weight limit, that changes things. Not exceeding 42 lbs, the Forte 7 is probably a strong choice, if you don't need the full 88... which is likely the case as LH bass makes the lowest 7 keys of an 88 not so necessary anyway. For lower weight and/or lower price (and a full 88 keys), I'd look at the Roland FA-08, but it is unfortunately almost 56" wide. I'd run the organ to the sub out and put it through a Vent, and wouldn't really miss the live drawbar controls since I wouldn't have a hand to operate them anyway.

 

ETA: There's also the boards I mentioned in the OP... MOXF8, SP6, PX560, all of which are light and narrow for 88s. MOXF8 is a tremendously flexible board, lagging only in organ. I haven't played an SP6 but from what I can tell, it should be pretty well suited for this, and probably better than the PX560 at about the same price and weight.

I suppose I'm in the camp of emulating 5 string bassists, so with an 88, I actually only have two extra keys. I brighten the very lowest freqs a tiny bit with eq to keep them from getting too muddy. 88 keys are also handy in a single board situation to throw in an octave-adjusted feature voice split on the top keys (harmonica part on Margaritaville, for example).

 

Would love some of the lighter narrow boards you mentioned, but those are VERY hard to find with aux out for separate bass feed and - this is a personal quirk for sure - with internal power supply. Rapid stage changes can be murder for small cords and power warts. I carry extras for the SK1 and MX49 when I have those boards with me, but I'd sure like to know my main board's power supply is dependably durable after a stage scurry. As I mentioned, that's probably more of a personal quirk, but it's based on an episode when my R3's wart apparently got stomped during a stage change; I spent the last bit of time before downbeat retrieving and hooking up the spare rather than getting settled in and doing final adjustments of mic and pedal placements, taking time to get a good seal of IEMs, etc.; felt out of the game until about the third song.

 

I guess I've accepted the notion that having the durability, feel and features I value and enjoy during a performance are worth dealing with a few extra pounds for a few minutes on each end of that performance. But, there are limits . . . 62 pounds for a Montage (and likely well over 80 with a suitable case) along with 58" length add up to a lot more inconvenience over the course of a year - makes it hard for the features and sound to flip the teeter-totter in a time when there are so many great boards available.

 

Thanks for all your insights and for starting this topic; very informative.

 

[Daniel Heslop]

I've done quite a bit of LH bass over the last couple years being in a band that was myself, a drummer and a singer.

 

However because I was trying to sound like a band, I layered the bass over my piano. I was using a Kross, now using a Krome 88.

I created a monophonic bass with low note priority, and layer it with my piano. I can play fairly pianistically and the bass takes the low note.

Also if I'm soloing and need a chord and bass behind it I can do it (though sometimes the chord was a I,V,VIII)

The downside is I cannot let the damper work on the bass or I'd get notes jumping around based on releasing the keys in the right order.

 

I left that band for multiple reasons (not the least of them being the drummer simply didn't learn songs...just made stuff up, consequently they were different every time. He also couldn't count them in..the singer has mental issues and is stoned 24/7...but I digress) but as it turns out I have a gig coming up with the same instrumentation (different musicians though) except the singer plays rhythm guitar and mandolin.

So I'm using my mono bass layer again and it sounds quite nice.

 

I would definitely prefer the bass on my lowest keyboard when using multiple boards. I definitely prefer having a bass player, but it did improve my left hand, and my hand independence!

[niacin]

I've played LH bass on most gigs for some years now, from duos to a 6-piece band.

 

I've usually split the lower board, currently an MX88: you can leave it in split mode and keep the bass happening while selecting a new right hand sound.

 

Previously on jazz gigs I found I occasionally wanted the whole bottom end of the piano and ended up putting a small 2-octave controller on top of a Kawai ES8 (way over your weight limit) and hooking it up to a Roland module for the bass end. It's a few extra leads, but you get your separate outs and separate volume control, and the whole piano range.

 

At least until I got back into the whole Hammond 2-manual thing, since then it's been the SK2 plus an Integra module when extra sounds are required. This is definitely my favourite set up, but I'm originally an organist, not a pianist.

 

[AnotherScott]

I've usually split the lower board, currently an MX88: you can leave it in split mode and keep the bass happening while selecting a new right hand sound.

Ah! Yes, that shaves a bit of weight (and some $) off the MOXF8 possibility, gets to just about my 30 lb cutoff, good call. I don't think either the MX88 or MOXF8 let you easily shift the octave of your RH sound on the fly, but that can become less of an issue on an 88. For a couple of key sounds, like piano, I'd probably create two different instantly-recallable RH piano sounds in different octaves to get around that. Roland DS88 at the same price is more flexible about that octave shifting, but starts creeping up in weight, and is noticeably wider, too. Does the MX give you an easy way to adjust the volume of your RH sound without affecting the volume of your LH bass sound? (The MOXF and DS do.) If not, there's still the fallback of running dual mono (which you might want to do anyway) and running an inline volume pedal on your RH sound.

 

If you want an 88 and want to keep size and weight as small as possible, the Casio PX5S could be a possibility. Not for people who are doing on-the-fly mixing and matching of sounds, that's a real weakness of that board (which is why I originally mentioned only their PX560 instead). But if you would be setting up all your splits ahead of time as some people do, it could be an option. It does have seamless sound transitions so you should be able to smoothly switch from one LH bass split to another, and it does give you the ability to pan the sounds, and set up readily accessible volume controls for your parts. Though again, I think you might need to work around its lack of easy octave switching for just your RH sound.

[niacin]

The MX88 has an expression/volume pedal input, so on the MIDI screen I set the bass reception of the sustain and expression/volume pedal info to OFF and for the sounds that I'll use on the right side of the split I set it to ON, so you just control the volume of the RH sound from the pedal. Yamaha has done a really good job (compared to others, such as the Integra mentioned above) of setting the volumes of different sounds so that they are pretty level anyway. I've created about 20 splits/layers and for the main right hand sounds the levels are almost all set to the same value.

[AnotherScott]

The MX88 has an expression/volume pedal input, so on the MIDI screen I set the bass reception of the sustain and expression/volume pedal info to OFF and for the sounds that I'll use on the right side of the split I set it to ON, so you just control the volume of the RH sound from the pedal.

Excellent!

[Guven Ilter]

I split the Nord Stage 3 for bass on the E1-E3 range, but I also use a lead synth (Nord Lead A1 or Moog Subs37) on top. I have prepared song settings for LH bass and a piano, e piano, B3, and some pads, and I can shift seamlessly on the NS3.

[AnotherScott]

Updating the topic of "good single boards for LH bass players" with some newly released boards, to add to the ones discussed in the first post of this thread...

 

Roland Juno DS76 would be a strong LH bass board... I already found the DS61 to be one of the best if you were limited to 61 keys, in part because of the easy on-the-fly octave-shifting of your RH sound, and the extra keys of the 76 just makes it that much better, as you won't have to octave shift as often to get to more keys.

 

Yamaha MODX7 gives Yamaha a 7x-key option they didn't have with the MOXF. It does not have the ability to easily change the octave of just your RH sound on the fly, but that may not be quite as important as it is when you have just 61 keys, and also, the new seamless sound switching provides a workaround if you need that ability (as long as you know in advance which sounds you will need it for), in that you can create duplicates of the same Performance (multi-sound setup) that just have the RH sound octave-shifted, and then you will be able to switch between those Performances without having notes cut off. One thing to be aware of is that you don't want to switch Performances in the middle of playing a moving bass line... do it on a held note, because even though you can switch sounds seamlessly, there is a tiny bit of time where a newly played note may not sound.

 

[Analogaddict]

I played LHB in a trio (keys, drums, singing guitar player) using my FA06, and I got some nice compliments on how it sounded, both from the drummer and from the bass player (!) in another band playing the same venue. I really enjoy playing it too, it responds very well to my style of playing.

[PianoMan51]

For some reason audiences are way more impressed when I play LH bass in an L configuration. I usually only do it on a couple of songs but the visual aspect of seeing you turn sideways and spreading your arms to play two separate Keyboards has much more impact than doing it on a stack or split Keyboard. Even musicians I know have commented on it. It makes it seem to people like you you are doing more even though the result is the same.

 

Ive been told that most people listen with their eyes.

[cgiles]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the NC2X. It meets 95% of the criteria mentioned in the original post and at a bargin price. It has three major options for the LH; acoustic bass with or without a ride AND an organ bass (or synth) bass. All are individually adjustable, including volume and pedal (volume) assign (on/off). Super easy and intuitive to set up and quality of sound is DECENT+. Also 88, so split point very versatile. All edits are available for whatever is on either side of the split point and 'split mode' can be turned on or off instantly. Seems like it checks all the boxes to me....unless you don't like the sound .

 

 

[AnotherScott]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the NC2X.

I did mention the Numa Compacts, they come close. As I said in the OP, "I'd downgrade the Numa Compacts for not letting you pan sounds (which admittedly may not be important for everyone)." That is, unlike the ones on my A list, you can't send the bass alone out to a bass amp (makes it sound more authentic), or give your soundperson separate control over the level of the "bass guitar", as you can on the other boards I suggested. But as I said, not everyone needs to be able to do that, so it can still be a perfectly viable choice.

 

Another limitation to be aware of is that it can only play two sounds at a time... so as soon as you do a LH bass split, you've used up one sound for bass, and there's only one sound left for your right hand (so you can't do something like layer piano and strings over your LH bass). But the Numa also has good MIDI functionality, so if need be, you could also grab an extra sound from your iPhone, for example.

 

Also, while switching your right hand sound on the fly (without cutting off your LH bass) does work nicely, it is a bit more limiting than other boards in terms of which of these RH sounds you can get to quickly. You don't have a lot of flexibility in setting up quick access to your favorite RH sounds for switching, there's no "bank of favorites" or direct access to most sounds. To change your RH sound while smoothly playing LH bass, you have to hit one of the 8 buttons to pick the category of the sound you want to switch to, and then if you want a sound that is not the last sound you used from that category, you have to use the scroll knob to get to the sound you want. In practice, it's really not bad (the knob works well, and there aren't too many options to scroll through), but it's a little more cumbersome and/or restrictive compared to what the other boards I mentioned can do. (ETA: and picking up from something I mentioned earlier in the thread, if you wanted easier, direct access to your favorite RH sounds, you might be able to do it by sending MIDI Program Changes to the "Upper" section from an iPhone or whatever.)

 

Still, it's a decent LH board within those limits, and offers 88 keys, aftertouch, light weight, and low price.

[elsongs]

For some reason audiences are way more impressed when I play LH bass in an L configuration. I usually only do it on a couple of songs but the visual aspect of seeing you turn sideways and spreading your arms to play two separate Keyboards has much more impact than doing it on a stack or split Keyboard. Even musicians I know have commented on it. It makes it seem to people like you you are doing more even though the result is the same.

 

Try situating the LH bass keyboard in a 45-degree angle slightly over your main keyboard. I've tried that and it's a lot more ergonomically comfortable. Plus it looks different.

[AnotherScott]

Updating... The Korg PA700/PA1000 are nice LH bass boards, allowing for the usual issues of splitting a 61. For a different reason, I threw together a quick demo of using it for LH bass while seamlessly switching RH sounds, and figured I'd post it here as well. A really nice feature that I did not demonstrate here is that there are front panel buttons for octave-down and octave-up that ONLY affect your right-hand sound, which can really help when you only have 61 keys to play with.

[video:youtube]

 

 

 

[RandyFF]

And speaking of LH bass, many of the bass guitar sounds on the Pa1000 are killer, best I've heard (which is far from comprehensive), and many of the guitars do a great job on bass as well. No matter how they stack up to others, it's the bass I've always wanted and didn't know I could get on a keyboard.

 

In addition to the switching of Keyboard Sets like you were doing in the video (a Keyboard Set is a fixed structure of 3 sounds for the RH, and one sound for the LH). In addition to the seamless sound transitions from one Keyboard Set to another, you also have the 3 sounds for the right hand that can easily be muted or put into play with one touch.

 

At first I was bummed there was only one LH bass sound at a time, but it really gets the job done, I can do some serious bass guitar whomping with this board.

[RandyFF]

For some reason audiences are way more impressed when I play LH bass in an L configuration. I usually only do it on a couple of songs but the visual aspect of seeing you turn sideways and spreading your arms to play two separate Keyboards has much more impact than doing it on a stack or split Keyboard. Even musicians I know have commented on it. It makes it seem to people like you you are doing more even though the result is the same.

 

Try situating the LH bass keyboard in a 45-degree angle slightly over your main keyboard. I've tried that and it's a lot more ergonomically comfortable. Plus it looks different.

That's the problem, there's all this sound coming at you, and it's usually coming from FOH speakers, so there's no way to localize who is doing what. You could be killing it with LH bass, and for non-musicians, they're not necessarily looking for the bass player, they hear the bass line and that's all they need to know, they wouldn't necessarily think to look at the key player as the source.

[AnotherScott]

In addition to the switching of Keyboard Sets like you were doing in the video (a Keyboard Set is a fixed structure of 3 sounds for the RH, and one sound for the LH).

Actually, I wasn't changing keyboard sets!

 

[miden]

Biggest issue I've ever had with LHB? Trying to convince guitarists and drummers that is actually a pretty cool thing! The minute you say left hand bass they cringe and just mentally switch off.

 

FWIW, the PX-5S also does pretty good left hand bass splits and is not affected by changing a right hand sound. It's just that it's bloody awkward to actually change anything at the "sound" or patch level on the PX hahaha!

[AnotherScott]

Biggest issue I've ever had with LHB? Trying to convince guitarists and drummers that is actually a pretty cool thing! The minute you say left hand bass they cringe and just mentally switch off.

Tell them the pay can get split fewer ways. ;-)

 

FWIW, the PX-5S also does pretty good left hand bass splits and is not affected by changing a right hand sound. It's just that it's bloody awkward to actually change anything at the "sound" or patch level on the PX hahaha!

Yeah, the interface for that is the gotcha, too much menu navigation to be practical live. Much better in the PX-560 and MZ-X500, which both work nicely for this purpose.

 

 

[RandyFF]

In addition to the switching of Keyboard Sets like you were doing in the video (a Keyboard Set is a fixed structure of 3 sounds for the RH, and one sound for the LH).

Actually, I wasn't changing keyboard sets!

Indeed, I tried it out tonight and there is no seamless switching with keyboard sets. oh well. apparently it's not the same architecture as the Kronos. How do you like the bass sounds? Guitars octave shifted down for bass? I find the basses on the Pa1000 to be much more authoritative and real than what I used on the MZ-X500.

[AnotherScott]

apparently it's not the same architecture as the Kronos.

Yes, seamless switching on the PA1000 works in limited ways, you have to figure out how to make it do what you want, if it can. It's definitely an entirely different architecture form Kronos, And actually, it's a Korg Italy product rather than a Korg Japan product, and as has been discussed here before, those two parts of Korg are largely autonomous, using different technologies. Despite that, each board has its strengths, and I was discussing elsewhere, PA is actually *better* than Kronos for some seamless switching (and LH bass) tasks:

 

While of course the Kronos is one of the best board for seamless switching, there are even things the PA does better here. For example, you may find that when you change to a different RH sound while playing LH bass (esp. on a 61 where you have only a few octaves available for it), you might want to quickly adjust its octave. Simple on the PA, not on the Kronos. PA is also better at being able to sustain a held sound through multiple patch changes. Also, in the LH bass scenario, on the Kronos, you pretty much need to do advance-setup of a selection of all your LH/RH splits. The Kronos is not really setup to let you pick ANY right hand sound on the fly (as I was doing in that PA1000 video). Yes, the PA might glitch in some cases due to fx limitations or whatever, but Kronos' limitations in doing this are worse. If you use its Quick Split feature, every sound change will create a hard cutoff... even just changing your RH sound will silence your LH sound! So instead you have to go to a LH bass Combi and go to the Edit page of your right-hand sound. Then at least you can freely pick right hand sounds without cutoff and without glitching your LH bass... BUT this method doesn't bring in effects at all! (There is a "Copy From Program" option that brings in effects, but everything--even the sound you're not changing--cuts out, among other issues.) So unlike on a PA1000, I wouldn't do LH bass on a Kronos without setting up every LH/RH combo I might want in advance ... and that's certainly a workable solution too, especially in context of the Kronos Set List screens, it's just a different approach. But you still have to work around the limited number of keys available for your RH sound on a 61 and no easy way to do that octave switching. So then you'd also sometimes want to set up multiple versions of the same LH/RH combi except with the RH sound octave-shifted. It's definitely do-able, but the point here is really just that the approach is different from what you would do on the PA (not necessarily better or worse, it depends on your needs and how you like to work). And getting back to the origination of this thread, while Kronos is in fact a good LH bass board (once you set that stuff up), it's also above my (somewhat arbitrary) 30 lb threshold.

 

How do you like the bass sounds?

Honestly, I haven't actually paid much attention to the bass sounds themselves! When I do LHB for a gig, I typically just go for a pretty generic "fender precision bass" sound and I always find something workable. Especially since I usually send the bass sound out to a bass amp (Markbass CMD121P), which adds its own authenticity,

[Dwin]

Up until last year I played keyboards and bass in a 3 piece group for over 30 years. I use a 360 Systems midi bass unit. They were made I believe between 1985-87. I have the tabletop model but they also made rack mount versions. They have eprom chips with sampled sounds and my unit has slots for 4 chips at a time. My favorite sound was a fingered bass and sometimes an upright. Of course it doesn't sound as authentic as today's samples but it still works when I need it. It has an option for low note priority which enables me to not have to split my keyboard sounds. As long as the left hand holds a note the right hand will not trigger the bass unit. I now play in a 5 piece group so I don't need to use it although on one occasion the bass player had a last minute emergency and I was able to cover his part. The advantage to using a separate unit for me was the ability for it to have it's own output for eq/ effects, sending to monitors, etc. My right hand technique changes when I play bass but I believe it made me a better musician over the years. I always joked that the only people who realized we didn't have an actual bass player were bass players in the audience.

[AnotherScott]

The advantage to using a separate unit for me was the ability for it to have it's own output for eq/ effects, sending to monitors, etc.

Yes, that's valuable. Some self-contained boards let you do that via additional assignable outputs; others by letting you pan your sounds left or right to their own outputs (though limiting you to mono, and possibly affecting your ability to use some effects); and others don't let you do it at all.