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Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 #3014382 10/31/19 02:56 PM
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EscapeRocks Offline OP
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Have any of you run into situation where people just don't pay attention, or ask for assistance within our little world?

Let's call it an RTFM problem. In addition to KC, I hand a couple other places with model specific groups.
This past week, since the arrival of MODX OS Ver 2, I can't tell you how nay people are freaking out because they lost everything when they updated.

The common refrain is "they should tell you that an update will reset your board and you need to backup".

My favorite: "I downloaded the update how do I install it?" arggghhhhhhhh

I pointed out that when they open the downloaded folder containing the update, the instructions are there as well, in pretty much any language you want.


The part about losing your data and making a backup first, takes up the first part of the Instructions...before it even begins to tell you how to do the backup.

The people complaining, who didn't read the "how to" are now bashing Yamaha. I just don't get it.
Maybe I just have little patience for willful ignorance.

[/rant]


David
Gig Rig: Casio PX-S3000 | Arturia Keylab 61 | Mac Mini |

KC Island
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014388 10/31/19 03:14 PM
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GregC Offline
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Its the Facebook disease.

For these souls, its about self induced drama plus short attention span, laziness in reading 10 basic steps to follow.

I shouldn't generalize but I notice it, too

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014393 10/31/19 03:40 PM
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Yes, I have also seen it. And it's getting more & more prevalent. A while ago I updated my SP6, I was actually surprised that my stuff was lost in the process. It never did that on my SP4-7. But I did make a backup and nothing was permanently lost.
Some of these people didn't experience older boards that didn't update so easily I guess. I once bricked a Roland Juno once because the update was via a midi file that had to be sent over the midi input, no usb. Half way through the midi player program I was using died creating a paperweight out of my Juno. I was kicking myself for doing the update, because at the time I thought the process was archaic and should have just passed.

Sweetwater saved my rear and replaced the board. After that I became a customer for life.


Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014394 10/31/19 03:41 PM
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It's not just keyboard players. On other forums, I run across people who lament that they've signed up for usurious credit unknowingly, or a real estate transaction that went the wrong way.

If you don't take the time to read the instructions (contract, agreement, etc.) that's on you. Wailing about it on a public forum isn't a good look.


Life is too short to be playing bad music.

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Home: Bosie 200, Yam AG N3
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Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: GregC] #3014396 10/31/19 03:56 PM
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Synthoid Offline
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Originally Posted by GregC
its about self induced drama plus short attention span, laziness in reading 10 basic steps to follow.


This... everywhere.


When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: Synthoid] #3014398 10/31/19 04:06 PM
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GregC Offline
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Originally Posted by Synthoid
Originally Posted by GregC
its about self induced drama plus short attention span, laziness in reading 10 basic steps to follow.


This... everywhere.




There is another factor or contributor, IMO. economic facets in daily life have gotten more stressful.

when I compare today vs 1999 or even 2009, the pressure , the challenges for those unprepared , are much greater.

I think its best to totally have ones game plan powered up, to keep up with todays pace.

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014399 10/31/19 04:08 PM
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Hi David --

This hits another one of my favorite peaves ...

Patch programming and other set-up is amazingly time-consuming. Yet, so many people don't ever bother to back up their work. Then we see messages like "How do I get my data back?", after disaster strikes.

Some of these folks may be the same people who complain how club owners, brides, etc. don't value their time. They don't value their own time enough to stay backed up!

Another example: Users who don't keep a back-up copy of a vendor's expansion pack, then want to transfer it back from the keyboard. Usually this is a one way trip to the keyboard in order to hold down piracy. I'm looking at some PSR/Genos owners, here.

All the best -- pj

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/update-about-the-updates/

Last edited by pjd; 10/31/19 04:11 PM.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014401 10/31/19 04:12 PM
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Me, as a kid: “Hey Dad, how does this thing work?”

Dad: “Did you read the instructions?” And then gives me a sly smile.

I learned that lesson well. I never buy music gear without downloading and reading the manual first, especially the specs and block diagram.


But I have friends I dearly love who when I ask them if they RTFM give a look that says “Only dweebs read instructions! I thought you were cool. What a stupid question. You dweeb. You were kidding, right?”

This is after buying a $70,000 new car, or continuing to blow out eardrums each time they turn on their new wireless mic.

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014402 10/31/19 04:18 PM
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timwat Offline
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There's also another way to look at it.

Remember the old saying, "Being the expert just means you're two pages ahead in the manual"?

Those of us who read a little of the documentation are now the fountains of wisdom.


"I'm not just untalented. I'm multi untalented."
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014406 10/31/19 04:28 PM
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I remember that 30 plus year old keyboard article on David Paich and Steve Porcaro and thinking they were just total geniuses knowing how to run all that gear. But they explained it as " but we read all the manuals". There it is!

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014408 10/31/19 04:34 PM
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EscapeRocks Offline OP
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Thanks for all the comments...

I think what set me off, so to speak, is all the people who were claiming Yamaha should have warned them about data loss, when the info is given in several different places the user must pass thru to get the update, open the update, and install the update.


David
Gig Rig: Casio PX-S3000 | Arturia Keylab 61 | Mac Mini |

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: PianoMan51] #3014410 10/31/19 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoMan51
I never buy music gear without downloading and reading the manual first


Unfortunately, after some people un-box their new piece of gear they throw away the box with the manual still inside. idk




When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: Synthoid] #3014417 10/31/19 05:00 PM
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I'd wager that people with good backup habits have had at least one major, catastrophic, un-backed up memory loss. (I have!) After that, the thought of doing any kind of update without backing up, regardless of a manufacturers warning, just seems insane and naive. So, perhaps a few of these Yamaha bashers will soon be joining that club.


Somehow I manage to con people into paying me to play with toys that make noise.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014418 10/31/19 05:03 PM
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Kevin Sage Offline
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Measure twice, curse once....my motto when updating software....and cutting most things.


Voyager, A Tribute to the Music of Journey - www.facebook.com/voyageraz
Keys: Korg KronosX 88, M Audio Code 61, Novation Launchkey, Mainstage, Keyscape, Omnisphere

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014421 10/31/19 05:12 PM
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timwat Offline
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But the RTFM issue surrounds us. It's become the water we swim in.

What percentage of new car buyers learn how to use even 60% of the on board electronics? How many iPhone users explore the new features of an iOS update? Most of us still have the "blinking 12:00 VCR" going on somewhere in our lives.

And consider less than 80% of the US reads at a high school diploma level.


"I'm not just untalented. I'm multi untalented."
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014423 10/31/19 05:19 PM
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felis Offline
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I suspect that it has generally always been like that, but it has never been so public.

Most people don't want to do the work to find the answer - they just want the answer.

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014425 10/31/19 05:24 PM
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I think cell phone apps might be contributing to the malaise... most apps update pretty regularly and painlessly without having to worry about losing your "stuff" in the process. People who are used to this probably jump to the conclusion that a keyboard update will work in much the same way and fail to read the instructions that contain the warnings.

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014428 10/31/19 05:29 PM
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Bill H. Offline
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^ Yeah I think that's basically it. Younger people especially are used to Windows and iOS updates that happen fairly regularly, leave your data alone, and you don't need to read instructions because it's mostly automatic. Those of us who are older have learned (sometimes the hard way) that it doesn't work that way with keyboards.

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: Bill H.] #3014433 10/31/19 05:47 PM
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this is why I only hang out here. smile


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: Kevin Sage] #3014435 10/31/19 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin Sage
Measure twice, curse once....


I cut the board twice and it's still too short. laugh


When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014437 10/31/19 06:15 PM
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I belong to several forums. What irritates me is when someone asks for help; you research and provide the data and never hear from them again. Or you ask a qualifying questions and never get a response. What's the point of asking the question the first time other than waste someone else's time?


57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil PC3; GEM Equinox; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini Desktop Module; http://www.dyinbreedband.com www.facebook.com/acoustaxx/
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014443 10/31/19 06:36 PM
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All of the gear I bought new back before the interwebs, I'd open the box carefully and extract the owners manual. I'd take a couple days studying that sucker like 3-4 times page by page. Only then would I break the plastic around the actual item. Now I do like #51 said, DL the manual and read it a couple times through before even buying the thing.

~ gonner


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Hardware: Nord Stage 2 - 76, Korg Kronos 2
Software: Cantabile 3, Halion Sonic 3 and assorted VST plug-ins.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014444 10/31/19 06:39 PM
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Yes, I see a lot of "drive by" posts. They post something and never ever respond or post anything again. I saw one post that was continuously being recycled, someone would post an answer every month or so for years.
Yet the original poster never responded. And looking up the username revealed a post count of one.


Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12
Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: felis] #3014445 10/31/19 06:39 PM
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GregC Offline
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Originally Posted by felis
I suspect that it has generally always been like that, but it has never been so public.

Most people don't want to do the work to find the answer - they just want the answer.


my wife and I point to the education system [ she's a teacher]

The school systems did +10 years to ' teach to the test'. As in, don't think, just check the correct box
[ 1 of 4 choices]. That encouraged simple memorization vs understanding the concept.

And we have google for +20 yrs, at schools, where an answer can be found in 20 seconds.

I call these contributing factors. Lots of automatic coddling.

Last edited by GregC; 10/31/19 06:40 PM.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014474 10/31/19 09:15 PM
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This also had a lot to do with the short attention span of people these days. This is in part due to all things trying to draw our attention away from what we're doing and a lot of that is thanks to the internet and smartphones. Not reading up on what to do before using or doing something and especially not thinking first is the convenience of this.


Trumpet player by trade, but fell in love with keys too.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: Delaware Dave] #3014483 10/31/19 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Delaware Dave
What irritates me is when someone asks for help; you research and provide the data and never hear from them again.


I have had this happen to me here on this forum


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014494 10/31/19 11:07 PM
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It goes both ways, including in here. OP asks a question, then people go about their business answering the question they WANTED the OP to ask and carrying on discussions on those subjects instead. Seems like there are a few different types of evangelists that will always answer any question with their product of choice, no matter what.

1) the software guy: no matter what, the best answer is always a pic, tablet, phone, etc running some sort of software.
2) the red keyboard guy: whatever you need, Nord is the answer. Don't have the budget? Maybe you can find one used.
3) the piano guy: yeah, it might cover the synths for your Kraftwerk Tribute, but the pianos are horrible - I would go with [insert favorite DP]
4) the Organ guy: (same as above but insert clonewheel)

In the above example, somebody could be asking for a lightweight portable keyboard with good synth sounds and some passable bread and butter stuff. Folks will end up debating pianoteq vs various DP's and competing actions along with what has the best clonewheel engine while a separate debate amongst those ignoring the bread and butter part will start debating analog and VA stuff, while some will recommend a momosynth and break into Behringer side debates.

In those cases, the OP doesn't come back because nobody is actually addressing what he needed.

Doesn't always happen, but definitely if the OP isn't specific, everybody fills the gaps with whatever they want rather than waiting for any kind of clarification.


Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: EscapeRocks] #3014496 10/31/19 11:22 PM
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Well put David. Although I hang my head in shame as I kept looking for the step by step instructions for the 2.0 MODX update on the Yamaha website, even after seeing all the PDFs in the file itself grin

Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: J. Dead] #3014502 11/01/19 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by J. Dead
It goes both ways, including in here. OP asks a question, then people go about their business answering the question they WANTED the OP to ask and carrying on discussions on those subjects instead. Seems like there are a few different types of evangelists that will always answer any question with their product of choice, no matter what.

1) the software guy: no matter what, the best answer is always a pic, tablet, phone, etc running some sort of software.
2) the red keyboard guy: whatever you need, Nord is the answer. Don't have the budget? Maybe you can find one used.
3) the piano guy: yeah, it might cover the synths for your Kraftwerk Tribute, but the pianos are horrible - I would go with [insert favorite DP]
4) the Organ guy: (same as above but insert clonewheel)

In the above example, somebody could be asking for a lightweight portable keyboard with good synth sounds and some passable bread and butter stuff. Folks will end up debating pianoteq vs various DP's and competing actions along with what has the best clonewheel engine while a separate debate amongst those ignoring the bread and butter part will start debating analog and VA stuff, while some will recommend a momosynth and break into Behringer side debates.

In those cases, the OP doesn't come back because nobody is actually addressing what he needed.

Doesn't always happen, but definitely if the OP isn't specific, everybody fills the gaps with whatever they want rather than waiting for any kind of clarification.


Perfect !


The trouble with doing the job correctly first time, is no-one will ever know just how difficult it was.
Re: Frustrated with Keys Players on another forum or 2 [Re: dongna] #3014509 11/01/19 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dongna
I think cell phone apps might be contributing to the malaise...

My previous employer published a whole article on that a few years back -- essentially saying how "people don't read full paragraphs anymore".

They read short bullets.

A few words.

Enough to get by,

Not too many.

In the article, it also said due to those Aps, TEXTING (LOL!) and modern technology, the average attention span of a 20 - 30 year old was half what it was 20 years ago and it was continuing to decline.

The whole point of the article was to encourage people to be pithy and to-the-point with their emails.

Yet I wonder how many people read the whole article...............

Old No7

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