Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

5 Reasons Musicians Should Stop Doing Gigs For $100


Recommended Posts

Imagine if YouTube existed in 1960. John and Paul are talking and one says "we should go to Hamburg and play all night every night. The money's not guaranteed, but the experience will make us the greatest rock band on the planet." "I hear you, but this guy on YouTube says we'll be deflating our self-esteem and depreciating the market." "Hmm, I guess he's right. Let's get day jobs instead."

 

The point is, there are many paths to success, and infinite paths to failure. But taking a chance on something that doesn't promise an immediate payback isn't always a dumb move.

 

 

I don"t know of any internationally successful acts post internet that have come up the road the Beatles and their predecessors did. In fact you can blame them for severe shifts in the music business in many ways. The business is constantly evolving.

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 82
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Hey, you! Are you having trouble making a living playing music? Try this: create a YouTube channel and boost your subscriber numbers by saying you can teach them how to make a living in music "quickly and easily," then just dispense the same advise that's been echoing around internet forums for years. Yes, YouTube will actually pay you a portion of their advertising money, and you didn't have to play a lick of music for it.

 

Yeah, that sums about how I feel about it.

 

I'm not saying you're cynical, at least not unreasonably so, but I certainly am.

 

There are three classes of musicians playing regular music I know of (I'm excluding, you know, concert pianists who play with orchestras or heavily-promoted legit music recitals): there's unabashed corporate/private party guys who've been around for ever and pull down enough bills to not only get by, but pay ridiculous amounts of cheddar for studio time. There's accomplished veterans who work a straight job and, despite having played for decades in various groups, just have no problem playing some coffee-house type thing. Then there's younger people who just want the experience and don't mind getting comped a few free beers, to play with their friends in the band, and try out their material.

 

Then there's true name players, even just locally: they don't tour, but they get weekly engagements that last months, or years. I think those guys supplement their incomes by teaching, either through local universities or just private, buying and selling gear, and maybe the occasional album.

 

I'm OK with just sitting the whole ride out: no skills at promoting or shuffling for a few bucks or a bill. I keep in touch and my ear to the ground for the odd private party that pays a few bills, but I'm not carrying my stuff around for grins and giggles. It's just not worth it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you ask me in theory do I believe that the devaluation of what we do is atrocious, then of course I agree 100%. I scold folks over this all the time.

 

If you ask me in practice would I rather sit at home than make $100? No f*cking way. There is an old golf joke that goes something along the lines of, "I wish I could play my average game, just once." I make the same joke about my minimum. Yeah, if you call and ask what it is, I'll tell you. I really do prefer to make it, of course. But would I take 6 $100 gigs in the meantime? Hell ya. Rent isn't paying itself...

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[q

 

I don"t know of any internationally successful acts post internet that have come up the road the Beatles and their predecessors did. In fact you can blame them for severe shifts in the music business in many ways. The business is constantly evolving.

 

I think its time to get positive about the business side of music.

 

Its been great for tattoo artists. And wearing strange clothes .

Lots of franchise opportunities.

 

I hope to invent a tattoo paint body eraser. Should be a winner with the demographic

;)

 

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every market and every club is different. I play in Key West.Six nights per week. We rarely play for less than $150 per man. Some pay $200. In this environment, a musician can actually support himself. earning about $70,000 per year. True, Key West has more venues than musicians. sometimes you can sell your self short on purpose because you want to create credibility at a new venue. The truth, though, is that the clubs create the pay grade, and if you don"t acknowledge that you will never work. Should you be hard-working and lucky as well, You will create a following and be able at a later point in time to negotiate a better rate. The days of union reps protecting your interest have been over for many years.

Hammond C3, Leslie 122, Steinway B, Wurlitzer 200A, Rhodes 73,

D6 Clav

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His whole scenario that he bases all of this on is unrealistic in my experience. If I'm called up for a gig, usually it's with a gigging band and not a band that doesn't exist that is being thrown together for a one-off gig. They're going to send me a set list, and will not WANT to have to do a separate rehearsal just for me (there was just another thread on this). The time I spend learning songs will be of value for other gigs. If I learn a song, it's not likely that this ONE gig is the only time I'll EVER get paid to play it. There have been some times when I've learned a song that was never played again, but usually it's something I can add to my repertoire that makes me more valuable and also means I may not need to spend as much time preparing for a future gig. So you can't take time learning songs and tack it onto ONE gig, to be reimbursed for that time.

 

When he makes the point that if you make less, you're more likely to slack off, show up late, not give it your all - yeah, if you're unprofessional. The 2 go hand in hand and if you remain professional, you'll likely get more for future gigs.

 

This. If I get offered a gig, how much it pays is not one of the questions I ask. Just date, time and a song list thank you. And I'm not going to slack off and fluff my way through the songs, or show up late, or give it anything less than 110%. And no it's not because I take pride in what I do. It's because if I show up on time and nail the songs and aren't a pain in the ass to work with, I get asked back, and as Dan says, I've already learnt the songs. Or, to take a recent example of a different scenario, a night of 90s tribute bands, I get a call from a singer I've met once before 6 months earlier on a recording session, can I do a half hour set of No Doubt songs? Sure I can. Pay is way less than $100, but it covers dinner and drinks, and the music is actually pretty cool, in contrast to the crap I could be playing at a wedding. 3 months later she rings me again, 80s night, can I do a set of Cyndi Lauper? Sure I can. And suddenly I get calls from other bands with some crossover of personnel, can I do a set of Roxette, can I do a set of (Australian singer) John Farnham, and can I do a set of Eurythmics? So I haven't played a lot of this stuff before, but I went through high school in the 80s so it's in my head, and frankly the sound programming took longer than learning most of the songs, it's pop not rocket science. So turns out I'm the keyboard player for the night on the main stage (they alternated two stages), and I make the same money I'd have made doing a wedding or a function, but playing to an audience that actually paid to listen, and I don't have to play 500 Miles or Brown Eyed Girl. And I've been asked to play there again in February, and I already know the songs, and so it goes round. I can see where the guy is coming from, but he can sit at home and make youtube videos about why you should sit at home, or he can get out and enjoy the privilege of playing music for people and working with an ever-widening circle of musicians who bring game and the right attitude.

 

Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since I posted this it went all over Facebook and there is a lot of pissed off people basically agreeing with what everyone has already said.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

> If you choose as your profession something so fun and inherently rewarding that people will do it for free, then you shouldn't be surprised that folks are (allegedly)

> undercutting your value by doing it for free. It's gonna happen and you can't stop it.

 

Exactly exactly, I've made this point many times in every Facebook thread where this dumb discussion pops up. The premise is always that "people who play for cheap are ruining it for us pro's who are sure we deserve more!" and completely overlooks not just the point that was correctly stated by jeffinpghpa and Adan, also that for any musician who decides it is in their best interest for whatever combination of reasons to play a gig for whatever low amount it pays...then they are under absolutely no obligation to consider how that decision will affect any other musician's prospects, in that sense it's every man for himself. (Just for fun I'll also point out that there's no valid reason to assume that the "part timer" or "hobbyist" or "wannabe" who can play for less because they don't depend on it for their full time living, is not as good or better as the self-proclaimed "full-time" "pro" who thinks he's worth so much more.)

 

How about that dumb meme that says something like "try calling six plumbers to work on a Saturday night and see what they charge," I'll chime in and point out that the analogy is not *quite* valid, unless plumbing was something that millions of people dreamed of doing as kids and that they do for fun, attention, artistic satisfaction, ego gratification, social enjoyment,, attention from the opposite sex, etc, in addition to getting paid. It's not.

 

Rich Forman

Yamaha MOXF8, Korg Kronos 2-61, Roland Fantom X7, Ferrofish B4000+ organ module, Roland VR-09, EV ZLX12P, K&M Spider Pro stand,

Yamaha S80, Korg Trinity Plus

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was a local winery here offering $50 per gig for 3+ hours.

 

One of my friends was performing there (solo guitar and singing). I was interested in doing some of my original tunes there until he mentioned the pay.

 

For several years I was in regular rotation at a winery that would routinely take in $10,000 + during my afternoon shift (piano and vocals). There's no way that I would go in there for less than my usual pay (well over $100).

 

There are several restaurant / lounges in my area that are barely making ends meet. They have music when they can, and don't pay much when they do. Musicians who play there understand that, and try to work with the owners so they don't lose money.

 

Wearing my other hat as a DJ, I went into a bar that's minutes from my house for $100 a night a couple of times - just to demonstrate that it would make them money if I did. I now work there at my regular price when needed.

 

To me price is all dependent on situation. I can completely understand musicians who won't work for measly pay. But for those who do, there should be a good reason for it.

 

Edit: I do not consider getting out of the house, drinking, and carousing good reasons, but I know some who do if they're being honest about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot depends on the area. Some places those $100 a night gigs are hard come by. If I have to travel more than 10 miles, no way it's not worth it. But I regularly do local gigs at $100 per person. But most of them are only from 2 to 8 miles away.

Since I do this as a self supporting hobby, I'm more inclined to stay near the homestead.

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah... you're viral now.

 

Congratulations. :w00t:

 

 

 

It wasn't the point. A buddy posted it I know in CT on Facebook and it caused a shit storm there also. I was just interested in everyone's replies.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, as was eluded to, there are possibly other benefits besides the cash element of the compensation. I mentioned I hadn't played for $100 since I was in College. But even then, there was a good reason for it. I was playing in a duo and we got hired as the "house" band to play outside on the patio. This was a dance club with a DJ inside, but they had us outside, weather permitting. We played every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, roughly May through September, $200/night ($100 each). But they also had a buffet and we got all you can eat while we were there, and free drinks all night. So for a college student, free food and drinks 3 days out of the week was pretty sweet, as was the fact that I had the security of at least $300 per week cash if all else fails without having to hustle and find gigs. We also got to be friends with the staff, they gave us staff shirts and on Industry night we would all go out together. We supplemented that income with some Wednesday and Sunday gigs that we charged more for (usually $150 ea), and both worked a minimum wage job in the Communications department of the local community college as cameramen recording peoples speeches and class discussions....pretty cushy job, most of the time we were just sitting around. So for that time at that age as a student, it was perfect.

Dan

 

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Im just glad I made the big dollars for 15 years.

Im quite content making 120 a night. They sure get their moneys worth from me.

Ive even worked for 80 bucks in the last couple years.

Band is tight, Im having a great time.

Whenever I feel like Im worth more I think about how I dont travel, how Im my own boss, I work where and when I want.

 

If I want money its still there, but my days of playing on a ROMpler Im not excited about, playing music where I look at my watch and hiding in a hotel room are over.

 

Sure has been a great ride, no regrets.

Besides I ski, and love Lake Tahoe.

Big City living just isnt my thang.

Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do people who are not trying to make a living in music owe an obligation to people who are trying to make a living in music? And does that obligation include foregoing one's own playing opportunities?

 

I think there's a visceral, superficial sense in which we think the answer should be "yes." But the idea doesn't stand up under careful thought.

 

Let's take me and my hypothetical friend Bob as examples. I play "professionally" in the sense that I'm paid for it, but if you took away all my gig money it wouldn't make an significant difference in my financial situation. I might have to eat out less often, but I won't be hungry.

 

What about Bob? Let's say he's a trained musician who reads, sings, arranges, and takes a wide variety of gigs. Let's call him Bob-1. Bob-1 does the things most musicians need to do to make a living. In that case, Bob-1 and I are really not competing for the same gigs. The question is mostly moot because Bob-1 and I might overlap for 1% at most of Bob-1's potential gigs.

 

Now let's say Bob is closer to what I am. We'll call him Bob-2. We might both be candidates to sub for a top-forty gig. Bob-2 can do it better and more easily than me, but the band only wants to pay $100, whereas Bob-2 normally asks $200 for a gig like that. Should I call the band and say "sorry, I'd like to do it, but Bob is more deserving so I'll step aside." Or should we just let the band "get what they pay for"?

 

Bob-2 probably has more overlap with Bob-1 than I do, but Bob-2 can't make a living doing a dozen $200 gigs a month, so he also is a bartender, or drives an Uber, or whatever . . . In other words, he's like a lot of musicians who are on the cusp of being able to get by on music money alone, but are not in a practical sense "making a living playing music." It's their aspiration, and it might be within reach, but it's not a reality.

 

If you think I owe an obligation to Bob-2, then you have to explain why. Is it because there's not enough bands playing top forty gigs, so I have to make it easier for that to happen? That seems like a weak argument. Is it because, if Bob-2 doesn't have to bartend or Uber on the side he might be able to step up to the next level and compete with Bob-1? I just don't see a strong argument here.

 

Now consider Bob-3. Bob-3 wants more than anything else to be making a living playing music. But he's not super-talented, and in fact I'm a far better keyboard player than he is. Should I be stepping aside for him as well? The music won't be as good, but the gig will be going to someone who is really trying to make a living at it, whereas I am not.

 

Does Bob-3 owe an obligation to Bob-2? Does Bob-2 owe an obligation to Bob-1?

 

In conclusion, I think while the idea has visceral, superficial appeal, trying to think it through just leads to a conceptual muddle. I couldn't put it into practice even if I wanted to.

 

 

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You lost me at your second paragraph introducing the visceral, superficial sense (I mean, I read the rest, but knew I disagreed with that part of your premise).

It's very hard for me to understand why anyone would think that "people who are not trying to make a living in music owe an obligation to people who are trying to make a living in music" (in terms of "stepping aside" from gigs); to me that seems absurd on its face. Why in the world would they?

I guess we come down in agreement at the end because you ultimately reject the idea but I guess I feel more strongly about it than you, in that I don't even accept the "idea" as having "visceral, superficial appeal" in the first place.

 

Rich Forman

Yamaha MOXF8, Korg Kronos 2-61, Roland Fantom X7, Ferrofish B4000+ organ module, Roland VR-09, EV ZLX12P, K&M Spider Pro stand,

Yamaha S80, Korg Trinity Plus

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^ What Adan said^^^

 

In the end, there are so many variations in individuals and their needs/wants, and gigs (with all sorts of parameters) that this entire topic is essentially and profoundly meaningless.

 

There are a couple of local establishments that don't pay great and are not particularly fun to play. I don't go to them, ever, for any reason. They are dead to me.

There is another local establishment that does not pay any better but they've established a vibrant, fun atmosphere, they make sure the band gets food and beverages, take care of dealing with customers/clearing the space where the band sets up and the tip jar there is generous. So I like to play there and enjoy hearing others play there.

 

Same upfront money, very different situations.

 

By the time you re-write "The Rules" to cover all variables you might as well just say "Go do YOU."

The rest of it is simply gibberish and nothing more.

 

 

 

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You lost me at your second paragraph introducing the visceral, superficial sense (I mean, I read the rest, but knew I disagreed with that part of your premise).

It's very hard for me to understand why anyone would think that "people who are not trying to make a living in music owe an obligation to people who are trying to make a living in music" (in terms of "stepping aside" from gigs); to me that seems absurd on its face. Why in the world would they?

I guess we come down in agreement at the end because you ultimately reject the idea but I guess I feel more strongly about it than you, in that I don't even accept the "idea" as having "visceral, superficial appeal" in the first place.

 

I'm actually with you all the way. I was just trying to give the argument enough credit to take it to the next step of trying to put it into practice, my main point being that it sort of doesn't matter whether you think the idea has credibility or not, you can't make it work.

 

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you take an Uber do you feel responsible for the taxi companies loss? It the same with music gigs, I take what I can get and accept repeat gigs from establishments that are fun to play. I feel no remorse for someone who wouldn't take a $100 gig anyway.

Because, that's what it pays. That place could just as easily get a Karaoke DJ or worse yet buy a bunch of TV's and become a sports club! If an establishment is willing to do what they can to support local live music then I'm going to support them.

Not just playing low pay gigs, but going there occasionally and spend my hard earned money there. Which is another reason why I prefer local gigs. Some of the places I've played I have developed a good working relationship with that benefits both parties.

 

And I can get a bunch of people to try a place. But its up to the establishment to keep them. Because if the place sucks, even a killer band won't help.

 

 

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any website that claims it can "teach musicians just like you to quickly and easily make a living from your craft" is suspect in my book.

 

I think the biggest error of this kind of thinking (I hear it regularly) is the lack of personal responsibility for the outcomes of your own decisions.

 

 

..
Link to comment
Share on other sites

People chose to end their lives for all sorts of reasons in all walks of life. Being a retired veteran and family member of someone who has committed suicide, I have seen my fair share of it. And its a terrible thing and almost never just about 1 thing.

 

Boards: Kurzweil SP-6, Roland FA-08, VR-09, DeepMind 12

Modules: Korg Radias, Roland D-05, Bk7-m & Sonic Cell

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everything you say is true of course, and my heart goes out to those affected. However it's also true that there's a little more to this phenomenon when you're talking about cab drivers, and I was reacting a bit to the "sons of bitches" comment. Here is a relevant NYT article, but it may not be readable without a subscription so I'll quote the main point:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/nyregion/taxi-drivers-suicide-nyc.html

 

Quote:

 

"A taxi driver named Roy Kim recently became the eighth professional driver to die by suicide in New York over the last year.

 

The city"s taxi commissioner, Meera Joshi, has characterized the deaths as an epidemic. The stories have drawn attention to the economic despair in the industry and prompted the City Council to weigh new legislation to help taxi owners reduce their debt and to increase driver wages.

 

Each case is different and it is difficult to know why someone decides to take their life. Most of the drivers were immigrants in their 50s and 60s, some of whom had told friends and family that they were having a difficult time making a living as Uber began to dominate the ride-hailing industry."

 

I am not in the least suggesting a parallel with musicians taking gigs for lower money causing a devaluation of musician's wages. The $75 gig has been around for decades. As far as the main topic of this thread, I am very hesitant to get into this discussion, being a full-time musician who's made as best of a "living" as I can from playing music my entire life â I don't think it will be productive for anyone. I was tempted to comment though, but I think this is the last post I'm gonna make in this thread. Again, I was reacting to another post here. Maybe I should have thought it through a bit before I posted. I just wish we all could muster a little more compassion for some of us facing different circumstances in life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's actually more in that parallel than it seems at first. The theme is basically, "Times change." On one hand, the taxi COMPANIES were stubborn and stupid for not seeing the writing on the wall, and I feel no sorrier for them than I did for the record labels who ignored the reality of streaming for so long that they basically lost the fight for good once they finally decided to join it.

 

On the other, of course the breed of taxi driver who worked for decides to gain equity in his medallion, bears the burden of that short-sightedness, and I feel pure compassion and no schadenfreude in the least over their plight.

 

The "times change" theme also applies to us. It's true, the days of "gigging as a day job" faded when the pay failed to rise as the decades went on. But then the burden is on us to say, "If this is what the times have to offer, how do we make it work?" Deciding not to play for the prevailing wage is self-defeating, IMO. Take the gigs--as many as you can--and then figure the rest out from there. Or else just get a day job and shift to part-time--perfectly valid as a solution. But to stay in the in-between state of, "That's what they're paying but I'm not going to play for them until they triple it," hurts everyone almost as much as underbidding or playing for "exposure" does. Those are the gigs. The way to bring value to our career, is to let people see folks doing it well.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As Tom Posted, there are more entertainment options than ever. There are Sports Bars, smaller clubs will offer 'free Juke Box Night", and, they can control the volume. There are several generations of younger people that grew up going to clubs being entertained by DJ"s playing canned music.

 

The masses don"t go out to Clubs on weekends to hear a band and 'hook up' anymore like they did decades ago. DUI laws and enforcement has taken a bite out of people staying out late in a dance club, drinking, and then trying to drive home. Drunk drivers kill people.

 

The Market where you live is the biggest factor. Small town America has entertainment limitations. Medium size towns might not offer much more depending on what people want and are willing to pay. How many times a week do people go out? Do they serve good food in addition to pushing drinks? Are there other things in a Club besides just a live band to keep people interested in going to a Club on a regular basis.

 

As Posted by WWW there"s live music gigs in Key West. Resort and vacation areas will have an abundance of clubs and live music venues. People on vacation spend money and if the area is popular, there"s more work, for everyone.

 

Back in the 70"s I worked with a guitar player in a duo that played at the Resorts in the Pocono Mountains during ski season. A Duo that wasn"t too loud, could sing and play 'Country Rock' to city people went over big time. They wanted to let it rip on weekends with 'foot stomping' music and have some fun. There was less work during the warm weather months, but we were still getting gigs on weekends in the Poconos, and played some local clubs in my home town once we got established.

 

The key factors were we could sing and play together well, we weren"t too loud, and we worked the crowd and tried to entertain them. Songs we didn"t know that got a lot of requests we learned. As a duo we couldn"t play everything, but our little duo worked.

 

The area where I have been living the last 30 years is completely different than what were the Pocono Mountains. I live close to a College Town, which means city people that listen to DJ"s, and the crap they spin. A completely different generation of people that did not grow up with live music. What live music that is available are solo guitarists that play happy hour and get paid from the cover charge at the door. Take it or leave it.

 

Mike T.

 

Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...