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piano cut through the mix


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A bit more information would be helpful.

 

What keyboard are you using?

 

Are you playing live or in a studio environment?

 

What type of piano sound are you referring to... acoustic piano, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, or the "beloved" DX-7 digital piano?

 

When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
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If you're turned up enough they all cut through the mix.

 

Well yeah, but this is going to muddy up the band sound, step into other instrument"s sonic space, and start a volume war.

 

You can create what you want with EQ, dynamics and better choice of what you play. (This is about acoustic piano patches).

 

1). Let"s start with EQ. I play live with a Yamaha CP4. I use the graphic EQ constantly depending on the song and instrumentation. When I"m playing solo I"ll generally set it flat. If I want a warm tone I"ll boost around 200Hz by 3dB or so. If crowd noise gets loud I"ll boost around 5kHz to cut through.

 

Now bring in a bass player. First step: cut 100Hz and down drastically. The harmonics of my lower piano notes can be heard (cut through the mix) but they don"t clash as much with the fundamental tone of the bass.

 

Now bring in more instruments. Leave low bass way down. Lower the 200Hz band from +3dB to -3dB (leaving more room for drums and guitar). And raise the 4-6kHz level to taste. What you"ve done is to increase the volume in one frequency band (for intelligibility) while lowering volume in others.

 

This is a good time to turn off reverb.

 

Don"t judge the sound by how it sounds on its own, but how it sounds in your band"s mix.

 

2). Lower your dynamic range. (Your low volume notes won"t cut through and will make the band sound less focused and noisy). This can be via compression, MIDI volume curve, dynamic range in a VST, or 'touch" selection on your keyboard.

 

3). Choose very carefully 'what" you play and stop playing notes that step on somebody else"s part and don"t add to the whole band. Use your own part to help the audience follow the song"s focus as it changes from tutti to vocals to solos, etc.

 

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Another approach that I sometimes employ is to use an LA-2A compressor, which is pretty standard practice among rock/pop piano. Elton John always plays through a 2A or 3A. It allows the attack to punch through, and then quickly compresses the body of the note. This allows for a punchy attack that quickly gets out of the way for other parts. The magic of an optical compressor like an LA-2A is that it doesn't compress at a specific threshold, so it's always doing its job, no matter what dynamic level you're playing. Pretty much every studio recording of a piano in pop/rock is going to use some kind of compressor like this. Live is a little more variable, but I always have one (sim) ready to switch on. It's less desirable for solo piano sections, since you want the body to come through more there.

 

For EQ: I tend to cut about 3dB around 300Hz, which is where a lot of competing instruments build-up their fundamental pitches. In a band setting, I mostly play with a low-end cut turned on for most of the set. Anytime the bass is playing, I don't really let anything below 80Hz through. Only exception is songs with keyboard bass (usually intros like Don't Stop Believing or most Muse covers).

 

The key to making any part cut through is to chop off the frequencies and material that will get in the way, leaving the important parts to play at a louder volume. This may mean playing less, or limiting the frequency range. Or in the case of compression: having the attack punch through and then get out of the way. All of these techniques work toward this same goal.

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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From my experience, the way I strike the piano has the greatest effect on standing out in an ensemble.

 

I now play rock/pop with the piano volume quite loud, but I NEVER use the pedal, and I am always mindful that every note has to have both a beginning and an end. So I strike my note, and release it. Everyone hears the loud note, and also hears the quiet afterward. Mindless guitarists/drummers who feel the need to turn up loud because of the loud piano quickly find themselves playing loudly against silence - and most respond by backing off the volume. And because the key volume is loud to begin with, this forces me to play more pianissimo and to play more sparsely. If I forget myself and hold the notes down, or play too continuously without pause, the stage volume goes back to thunderous sludge.

 

Sure, some judicious EQ helps, but for me, my piano technique is the most important part of "cutting thru a mix".

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Ray Charles Genius plus Soul

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Stevie Wonder Songs in the Key of Life

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In general EQ and boost the mid's and upper mid's to cut thru. Listen to the band for the sonic hole between the bass and the high's of the guitar and drum cymbals. Turing your volume up is just going to make everyone else turn there's up, find a hole and fill it.
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tell the guitar player to reduce his volume on his 200 watt Marshall stack.

Can't argue with that - a quality solution. I could include a bassist or two I know who believe they need to dislodge people's fillings.

 

In the context of a live rock band, as a few here have suggested, I generally let EQ do the heavy lifting for me. Depending a bit on the situation, I often roll off the bass, low mids and boost the upper mids a little. The rest is up to the soundy. If you're 100% wedded to using a preset and doing no more fiddling, then I'd go for something that generally sounds bright and snappy. May not give you much depth and complexity if you're a soloist but should get you through to the audience ok in a rock band situation.

 

My other tip (again, assuming live context) is to make sure you can hear yourself clearly in your monitor, even when playing at low volume. I find I tend to bash the keys a bit hard if I can't, which wouldn't create a great result out front.

 

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I played traditional Celtic music for a long time before doing the rock scene. It was a bass player who gave me a tip from playing with some of the greats: a lot of the old school Irish pianists hit the keys and immediately bounce or fall off the ends, so the note is extremely short. I practiced that for a while and brought it into my rock repertoire. This echos what BbAltered said about playing short and not pedaling. When I'm solo I pedal a lot, but almost never in a band. Furthermore, I have my sustain pedal doing double-duty as the Leslie speed control, so most of the time, I've got it turned off for sustain and just use it for organ.

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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I struggle with using EQ to deliver cut. It's a Nord thing - there's a lack of punch about 2 octaves above middle C. If I boost that region with EQ, it brings out hammer and other noises from other notes.

 

+1 on the rest of the band turning down.

 

-1 on the OP coming back to this thread.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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I use 2 layered upright pianos as my go to acoustic piano sound on my Nord. A huge grand piano tries to dominate the spectrum and muddies the band mix. The layering loosens up the unison tuning and makes it cut better a lot more effectively than putting chorus on it.

 

Also I can EQ the brighter piano (the ancient Rain Piano sample) even more brightly to cut, at a slightly lower volume than the main body of the sound (the Bambino). This avoids the entire sound becoming tinny. I only use grands in more exposed settings like ballads. They sometimes get the layering treatment to loosen their tuning up as well.

Moe

---

 

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If you're turned up enough they all cut through the mix.

 

Well yeah, but this is going to muddy up the band sound, step into other instrument"s sonic space, and start a volume war.

 

You can create what you want with EQ, dynamics and better choice of what you play. (This is about acoustic piano patches).

 

1). Let"s start with EQ. I play live with a Yamaha CP4. I use the graphic EQ constantly depending on the song and instrumentation. When I"m playing solo I"ll generally set it flat. If I want a warm tone I"ll boost around 200Hz by 3dB or so. If crowd noise gets loud I"ll boost around 5kHz to cut through.

 

Now bring in a bass player. First step: cut 100Hz and down drastically. The harmonics of my lower piano notes can be heard (cut through the mix) but they don"t clash as much with the fundamental tone of the bass.

 

Now bring in more instruments. Leave low bass way down. Lower the 200Hz band from +3dB to -3dB (leaving more room for drums and guitar). And raise the 4-6kHz level to taste. What you"ve done is to increase the volume in one frequency band (for intelligibility) while lowering volume in others.

 

This is a good time to turn off reverb.

 

Don"t judge the sound by how it sounds on its own, but how it sounds in your band"s mix.

 

2). Lower your dynamic range. (Your low volume notes won"t cut through and will make the band sound less focused and noisy). This can be via compression, MIDI volume curve, dynamic range in a VST, or 'touch" selection on your keyboard.

 

3). Choose very carefully 'what" you play and stop playing notes that step on somebody else"s part and don"t add to the whole band. Use your own part to help the audience follow the song"s focus as it changes from tutti to vocals to solos, etc.

 

These are steps of a mature, experienced and pro keyboardist that will be in demand and a pleasure to other players. Now, if more guitarists can learn this...

Lenny
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I use 2 layered upright pianos as my go to acoustic piano sound on my Nord. A huge grand piano tries to dominate the spectrum and muddies the band mix. The layering loosens up the unison tuning and makes it cut better a lot more effectively than putting chorus on it.

 

Also I can EQ the brighter piano (the ancient Rain Piano sample) even more brightly to cut, at a slightly lower volume than the main body of the sound (the Bambino). This avoids the entire sound becoming tinny. I only use grands in more exposed settings like ballads. They sometimes get the layering treatment to loosen their tuning up as well.

Interesting. I might try this tonight.

 

FWIW, I use Nord's "Bright Grand" with mid-boost. I have also discovered that "KBD TOUCH 2" gives me the finger-to-sound experience I expect and avoids mushiness from an otherwise-too-high trigger point on my NS3Compact.

 

I adore that Rain Piano sample BTW.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. Typically, two instruments sound a little quieter and less punchy when mixed at the same decibel level. They tend to sound thicker and fuller, but I wouldn't expect it to cut through the mix as well. This is why metal bands are starting to go back to double-tracking guitars instead of the 4-8 tracks that cropped up in the early 00s. I guess whatever works, but I wouldn't recommend it for most cases. THICK is typically the opposite of CUTTING THROUGH.

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. Typically, two instruments sound a little quieter and less punchy when mixed at the same decibel level. They tend to sound thicker and fuller, but I wouldn't expect it to cut through the mix as well. This is why metal bands are starting to go back to double-tracking guitars instead of the 4-8 tracks that cropped up in the early 00s. I guess whatever works, but I wouldn't recommend it for most cases. THICK is typically the opposite of CUTTING THROUGH.

 

That's why I don't mix them at the same level. The other benefit of the layering is that it smooths out the tendency of Nord sample sets to get weak in the second octave above middle C.

Moe

---

 

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I used to layer the infamous Kurzweil triple-strike piano in my K2600x with a patch called "Romance Piano" in my Korg Triton and obtained excellent results cutting through a live mix. Probably around 80-85% Kurz and 15-20% Korg. The Kurz provided more of the body and the Korg provided the cut.

 

Around 2005-2006 I had the pleasure of talking with the keyboard tech for Jonathan Cain, who at the time obtained his piano sound by using a combination of a Yamaha grand (i.e., "The Whale") along with piano programs from a Yamaha Motif-Rack and a Kurzweil Micro-Piano module. Not sure if the modules were layered across the entire piano keybed or just in certain sections. Probably should have asked, but I was so shocked at unexpectedly meeting the dude (in the lobby of the theater before the concert) I didn't think of it.

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."

- George Bernard Shaw

 

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I always layer Piano.

PianoTeq and Omni/Keyscape actually add more noticeable dynamics too.

Love PhysMods and Love samples.

PianoTeq low end isnt as authtenic as Id like so Keyscspe covers that nicely.

Plus Omni samples are more controllable using velocity.

 

I use Zebra, Omni and PTeq for a 3 way clavinet.

One expression pedal mutes or opens up all 3.

 

First rule of government spending, why have one when you can have three for triple the price.

 

 

 

 

Magnus C350 + FMR RNP + Realistic Unisphere Mic
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