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The days are numbered for my beloved cheese grater desktop Mac, which is now as endangered a species as the snow leopard for which its operating system is named. I could likely hack it to run 64-bit software, but the odds of it running Catalina are probably remote, and most of the software that's on it is "obsolete" anyway. (Well not really, the software and computer still work fine. Maybe a more apt description is "abandoned, and left on the sidewalk to die.")

My circa 2012 MacBook Pro is still great, and will still run Catalina. But to me, a laptop isn't a studio computer. And the new MacBook Pros suck, so I'm going to keep running this one as long as I can.

I don't want an all-in-one, and can't afford the new Mac Pro desktop. (Besides, if I was going to spend that much money, I'd get a tricked-out Windows machine that could probably do interstellar time travel.) So that leaves a Mac Mini. Its base price is inexpensive, although expanding it to pro standards isn't cheap...but it's a lot less than a Mac Pro.

So, is anyone out there using a Mac Mini for music production? How much did you expand it? Are you happy with your decision? Any words of wisdom for someone who's thinking of taking the plunge?

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I did have a 2011 Mini Server version (two HDs), i7 quad, updated to 16RAM, 1 500g SSD; which was used for both experimentation/learning the OS and for music. No problems with it. I wound up donating to my church for their music/video use; and still have my 2011 Macbook Pro - similar specifications. Don't have experience with the new version.


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Craig, I have been a Mac guy for a long time, so the Mac Mini idea has hung around in the wings as a smart Maybe. The newest model is such a powerhouse that I'm tempted again. I stay mostly instrument-safe by having a huge EXS library that's easily transferred. I also trust AAS & G-Media, for example; they make upgrades largely painless. I'd have to shop for a monitor that doesn't cost 2 limbs like Apple's own, as nice as they are. I can also run the Mini through my Focusrite interface for audio purposes. I'd sure like to go SSD, too. From the reading I've done, the Mini finally feels fully mature. I'm in no real need of a major overhaul yet, but do I have a kitty jar set up for it. I have to pay 25 cents every time I cuss a politician on TV, so I figure I'll be sniffing the specs of a new one by March. Python


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I ran the Mini (and currently run the MBP) into a 32" Samsung HDTV using an HDMI adapter. Bought a couple of the refurb Samsungs through Walmart for about $130 each IIRC. 1080p resolution, the MBP works great driving both internal screen and the TV. Probably a 4K HDTV would be scannable at the normal Mac 2560 resolution, although I haven't checked, since what I've got is doing the job.


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A timely question as I just researched this for a friend of mine and wound up recommending a used 2012 Mini with the 2.3Ghz quad-core i7. He has legacy gear and this one is the last with firewire, first with USB3, ram & ssd upgradeable, and can be updated all the way to the most recent MacOSes. I expect it will serve him well.

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Originally Posted by Reezekeys
A timely question as I just researched this for a friend of mine and wound up recommending a used 2012 Mini with the 2.3Ghz quad-core i7. He has legacy gear and this one is the last with firewire, first with USB3, ram & ssd upgradeable, and can be updated all the way to the most recent MacOSes. I expect it will serve him well.


Helpful info, to say the least. Where did you find the 2012 Mac Mini? And do you think Apple will support it for a few more years (.e.g, not do an OS update that kills it)?

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I have used the MacMini for music in the past and it did fine. Just keep your expectations realistic. It is not going to compare to a MacBookPro. One thing to consider, if you push it too hard for too long you can run into heating problems. The box design does not allow it to dissipate heat as easily as a laptop. You can run Reason with a 1080P screen on it all day. A huge logic project while pushing a 4K monitor may give you issues. You may want to look at cooling solutions.

A few years ago I made a statement on Keyboard Corner that I would never own an iMac. It is basically a MacMini built into a screen. ... ... ... I love my 27" iMac. I bought the higher end version with the good processor and plenty of memory. It does just fine with Logic, Live and Reason. For audio I use a UAD Apollo quad. An equivalent MacMini should work the same. Just have plenty of good, fast, external HD's. Oh, and while the suggestion of the 2012 MacMini is a good suggestion for many reasons, you don't get Thunderbolt 3 on the old Mini's. That is how my Apollo is connected.


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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by Reezekeys
A timely question as I just researched this for a friend of mine and wound up recommending a used 2012 Mini with the 2.3Ghz quad-core i7. He has legacy gear and this one is the last with firewire, first with USB3, ram & ssd upgradeable, and can be updated all the way to the most recent MacOSes. I expect it will serve him well.


Helpful info, to say the least. Where did you find the 2012 Mac Mini? And do you think Apple will support it for a few more years (.e.g, not do an OS update that kills it)?

Sorry for the late reply. I helped my friend set up his Mac Mini and I must say I'm quite impressed with it – especially given it's a late-2012 model! I looked up the link I sent him to buy it and they're sold out, however Ebay has quite a few. He paid a little over $500 for his but there are some for $400 which you'll see if you follow my link. His has 8GB ram and a 1.5GB "fusion" drive which accounts for its increased cost.

As far as support, Apple lists it as compatible with Catalina; it just makes the cut. Not that you'd upgrade there now, of course. But if its hardware supports the latest OS I would think this might be a useful computer for quite a while, depending on one's needs. RAM and hard drives are upgradeable (as opposed to most new Macs). OWC makes a sled that lets you add a second internal HD.

I did some research on these late-2012 Minis, they are apparently very well regarded as later models lost clock speed & features. I'm talking about the high-end 2012 models with quad-core i7 processors.

Scroll to the bottom for more deals –––

https://www.ebay.com/p/129579440?iid=274047020420

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I still have my 2009 Mac Mini, which operates as my desktop/Sibelius/office computer. It's still on 10.6.8 – it's a little sluggish now and I would not update it to a new OS, but it does what I need it to do. I like the Mac Minis – they're built like tanks, they're the most bang-for-the-buck Apple product, and they've always worked well for me. I highly recommend them.


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I buy used Macs from macofalltrades.com all the time. My 2011 dual i5 iMac is now too long in the tooth for me, and I plan to exchange it for a Mac mini, probably a dual i7 of 2014 vintage. The new ones are monsters, but they buy a little too much into the "computer as disposable appliance" paradigm for me; the previous generation has user upgradable/replaceable RAM and hard disks, has Thunderbolt and USB 3, and pretty good on-chip graphics. I plan to use one with a double-wide LCD monitor and run Mojave on it for the foreseeable future.

BTW, Craig, my main studio computer, where I do all my actual composition and playing rather than editing and streaming, is a MacBook Pro of similar vintage to yours. I have it hooked up to an external monitor and it's an absolute tank. It feels like a proper music computer to me!

My laptop for carrying around and playing live and not crying if it gets lost is an 11" MacBook Air with 8 GB RAM, a half-TB SSD, and a dual i7. Killer little machine and it goes anywhere with me.

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Originally Posted by Dr Mike Metlay

BTW, Craig, my main studio computer, where I do all my actual composition and playing rather than editing and streaming, is a MacBook Pro of similar vintage to yours. I have it hooked up to an external monitor and it's an absolute tank. It feels like a proper music computer to me!]


I'm starting to get the impression that was close to the last of the great MacBook Pros. I sure hear a lot of negativity about the recent models.

I was really close to pulling the trigger on a new Mac desktop or Mini, but now I've decided I don't want to go through the Catalina "she loves me, she loves me not, she loves me, she loves me not..." dance. I coped with PowerPC to Intel and Carbon/Universal Binary, but my time is limited so a new Mac has been put on the back burner until the 64-bit thing gets sorted out. Might get myself a new smokin' Windows machine in 2020...although my ancient PC Audio Labs computer not only refuses to die, it refuses not to do a great job.

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While on vacation last week I took the opportunity to test my old mid-2012 MacBook Pro. 15", I-7, 16GB, 512GB. It still does just fine with Reason and Live.


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Originally Posted by RABid
While on vacation last week I took the opportunity to test my old mid-2012 MacBook Pro. 15", I-7, 16GB, 512GB. It still does just fine with Reason and Live.


As it will for the foreseeable future. Just don't update the OS smile

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I’m using a 2012 Mac mini Dual i5 with 16gb and ssd for music. It works ok, but I think i would like more processor capacity. I’ m not a really demanding user I think.


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I just pulled the trigger (damn you Cyber Monday) on a 2014-vintage i7 Mac mini with 16 GB soldered to the motherboard. I'm going to rip out the Apple 256 GB SSD and replace it with dual Samsung 1TB SSDs, and hook it up to a wide-format monitor. I will run Mojave on it and use it to replace my beloved but slowly dying pawnshop-rescue 2011 iMac. I will let folks know how it ends up working.


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Originally Posted by Dr Mike Metlay
I just pulled the trigger (damn you Cyber Monday) on a 2014-vintage i7 Mac mini with 16 GB soldered to the motherboard. I'm going to rip out the Apple 256 GB SSD and replace it with dual Samsung 1TB SSDs, and hook it up to a wide-format monitor. I will run Mojave on it and use it to replace my beloved but slowly dying pawnshop-rescue 2011 iMac. I will let folks know how it ends up working.


Are the SSDs easily replaceable, or do you need to solder? Also, where did you buy it?

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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by Dr Mike Metlay
I just pulled the trigger (damn you Cyber Monday) on a 2014-vintage i7 Mac mini with 16 GB soldered to the motherboard. I'm going to rip out the Apple 256 GB SSD and replace it with dual Samsung 1TB SSDs, and hook it up to a wide-format monitor. I will run Mojave on it and use it to replace my beloved but slowly dying pawnshop-rescue 2011 iMac. I will let folks know how it ends up working.

Are the SSDs easily replaceable, or do you need to solder? Also, where did you buy it?


In that generation of Mac minis, RAM is impossible to replace, because it's soldered to the motherboard. However, storage is easily swappable, and OWC makes special cradles that can hold two spinny disks or SSDs in place of one, so you can have dual storage right in the box.

Unfortunately, it's the other way around for the new Minis: you can beef up RAM on your own (with some effort), but because they use the T2 chip for encryption, not only is the onboard SSD inaccessible because it's soldered in, but if anything happens to your Mac, the data on the drive is lost forever. Older Macs would have a handy port on the mobo that allowed you to directly connect to the drive and suck out all the data for backup; that doesn't work any more. Modern Macs must be backed up to external media religiously, because they're now bricked by a variety of occurrences that would leave older models dead but repairable.

Unless there's a case where I stumble on an incredible deal in a pawnshop (it's happened once or twice), I buy all my refurbs from Mac Of All Trades. They're affordable, extremely reliable, and have very good customer service. Since PowerMax became a faceless corporate nonentity, they're the best used Mac sales place in the country.

mike


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Originally Posted by Dr Mike Metlay


BTW, Craig, my main studio computer, where I do all my actual composition and playing rather than editing and streaming, is a MacBook Pro of similar vintage to yours. I have it hooked up to an external monitor and it's an absolute tank. It feels like a proper music computer to me!


I'm using my i5 MBP which was the last 17" version as my main studio computer. I have video out to a huge Samsung HDTV and I'm using the original Presonus SL1642 which I've had for a number of years but have hardly used until recently. That setup is working well for me and I've finally gotten back into some recording work after a long lull. I was sad when I upgraded it to 10.13.6 because I lost Logic Pro 9 but I still have Digital Performer, Reason and others. One of the big reasons I cling to this setup is because that computer has the expresscard slot for my UAD solo laptop which fortunately still works but I'll not upgrade the OS on that computer ever again for the remainder of it's life!

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Originally Posted by Greg Mein
One of the big reasons I cling to this setup is because that computer has the expresscard slot for my UAD solo laptop which fortunately still works


Eliminating Expresscard slots is, to me, a perfect example of form over function. "Oh, but you can get a PCIe card cage for Thunderbolt!" That's an improvement?!?

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Originally Posted by Anderton

Eliminating Expresscard slots is, to me, a perfect example of form over function. "Oh, but you can get a PCIe card cage for Thunderbolt!" That's an improvement?!?


They keep taking things away from us. I still have some useful Firewire audio interfaces and the only laptop I have that I can still use one with is a Lenovo from 2004 that still works.

And, of course since they no longer make computers with expansion slots, there are no new expansion cards. Plus PCs have never embraced Thunderbolt and the USB-C thing still isn't completely U(niversal). Why do we have to keep spending money to maintain status quo?!!!

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I am using a Mac Mini and have been since 2012. So far I have used it without issue.


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Originally Posted by Al A.
I am using a Mac Mini and have been since 2012. So far I have used it without issue.

How much RAM are you using in it? If upgraded, did you upgrade it yourself?

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I do not use a mac mini for music production because it seems to me that it is unsuitable for this area. I am more used to create music on Razer Blade 15 because it has a giant, precise, smooth glass trackpad and works without any lag. My brother gave me this like a gift but in the end, I found out from which site he took it, you can enter and see what offers they have - https://thecursedcrusade.com/best-laptop-for-music-production/ . I liked that they have affordable prices and show you the differences between different laptops. If you do not know what to use next to make music, I recommend that this is the appropriate site.

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The new M1 Mac Mini will blow away anything in the price range, period.


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Originally Posted by RABid
The new M1 Mac Mini will blow away anything in the price range, period.

When you say "blow away," I assume you're not referring to those USB-C charging issues... smile

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Originally Posted by Mike Rivers
Originally Posted by Anderton
Eliminating Expresscard slots is, to me, a perfect example of form over function. "Oh, but you can get a PCIe card cage for Thunderbolt!" That's an improvement?!?

They keep taking things away from us. I still have some useful Firewire audio interfaces and the only laptop I have that I can still use one with is a Lenovo from 2004 that still works.
Firewire works fine on the latest machines, including the M1 Macs. You do need an adapter via Thunderbolt, but it will still work.

Apple WILL take Firewire away entirely at some point (probably this fall or next year), but they haven't yet. 23 years of support so far.

Now, whether the interface vendor still supports the latest OSen is a different question (Metric Halo supports my 20-year-old 2882, but requires the USB-C/Ethernet 3d hardware upgrade to their stuff from Catalina upwards, UAD decided to drop support for FW interfaces on Big Sur entirely, as have Focusrite, while RME is a full go…etc.).

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I plan on getting an M1 Mac Mini if I ever get the stimulus check. I've been using the other-thread mentioned 2009 MacBook to do online lessons, since at least half of my students want to use Facetime and I have no other option.

I'm going to be doing online lessons "indefinitely" now. In an attempted upgrade on my peasant's budget I tried adding a GoPro, which at 1080p made Facetime, Skype and Zoom turn into a pixelated stop-motion animation festival. My wife got me a Black Magic ATEM mini video
switcher for Christmas - which I can't use thanks to Peasant Processing Power. So I'm presently stuck at 640x480, and from testing I think that's getting munched going out, if I've just shut down Skype to open Zoom (I would suggest there is a Cold War of video conferencing apps going on to hijack audio and video settings/configurations....).

My only question is whether to get the 8gb or 16gb version, leaning to the 16. Given I'm living at my means at the moment, I'm hoping this doesn't turn out to be a bad decision.


Music production: I had Logic X on the MacBook for the sole purpose of having the Drummer option; I suspect I may try switching camps from PC to Mac since Reaper is now available for M1 Mac, and I think all of my plugins have have Mac versions; don't know how that will work out. A possible good opportunity to cull the plug in chaff?


/ Judging by some of these posts, I don't think people realize the performance leap Apple has made over Intel with the M1 chip.

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My news feed is tech heavy and there has been speculation on the collapse of prices for used Macs because of the interest in the M1. Macs have held their resale value pretty well up until recently. Apple has also been executing a pricing shift on the Mac Mini. One usually thinks of the Mini as a ~$600 tool, but if you make the logical selection of more memory and more drive space it is a ~$1200 package. It looks to be a very solid package at that price, but I am planning on waiting for the next generation.

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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
Judging by some of these posts, I don't think people realize the performance leap Apple has made over Intel with the M1 chip.

It's a much more complex topic than either Intel or Apple (or AMD, for that matter) would like you to think. They all cherry pick their specs and benchmarks so much I don't think the full story is in yet. There are many ways the M1 beats Intel, but there are applications, like AI, where Intel is way ahead.

For example...if your benchmark for battery life is how long you can run a video, but one test had the screen so dim you can't see the video, that's not as helpful as a test that compares real-world brightness.

I don't trust any of these companies to tell us anything that's not set up to make them look better.

We'll know more in a year smile

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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
I plan on getting an M1 Mac Mini if I ever get the stimulus check. ...

I was going to get a MacBook Air M1, then my refrigerator died.


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Don't do much music production on it, but my 2011 Macbook Pro died, and I replaced it with a 2012 Mini, quad i7, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, and the rebuilder (BlueMax Computers in Virginia Beach, who did a very fine job in the rebuild at a reasonable price, and also took the MBP off my hands for a bit of price reduction) left the original l1TB "Fusion Drive" which has 128GB SSD and balance is HD in as well.
I don't have Logic, but do have MainStage 3. Also have a Focusrite 18i8 USB midi/audio interface for it.
A bit faster than the MBP, but what I really like is USB3 instead of USB2.
Had it shipped with High Sierra, what I had on the MBP, to make sure there were no compatibility issues, May update to Mojave, probably won't to Catalina, and it won't do Big Sur. Took 3 days to install everything new (I have a bootable SuperDuper backup from the MBP, but wanted a fresh clean install.
I also run Parallels 15 on it, with 4 Virtual Machines, 3 of them Windows 10 specific configurations, the 4th is Mint Cinnamon Linux. This computer is primarily for my business, since I specialize in making Apple and Microsoft stuff work together. Can access files either way, PC/Mac or Mac/PC.

For day to day sound generation, my iPad 5 with various apps does just fine.


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My MacBookPro is 5 years old now. While working I was getting a new Mac ever 5 years. Now that I am retired I am not in as much of a hurry, and looking for more budget options. The M1 Air is $400 cheaper than the same size M1 Pro. For that $400 I can upgrade the memory and the internal SSD.


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I'm surprised at how many Mac Minis (and other Macs) have died. I'm running PCs, mostly Dells, that are over 10 years old and still going along fine. One thing I think helps is that one is still at WinXP, the others are at Win7, and if I try some new software that won't run on one or the other, I just don't use that software. I realize that not everyone can, or is willing to work (or not work) that way, but it works for me.

I do want to get a fresh laptop for travel to replace my Toshiba netbook, but that's just to get a bigger screen to rest my aged eyeballs. But I'll still have to get an old one because the newer ones are too big.

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I've only had one Mac die, my very first MacBookPro. It suffered from the expanding battery problem. I sent it off and had the battery replaced but then found out that the pressure from the expanding battery damaged the touchpad. It is at least 15 years old and still works if you attach a mouse or track pad. I consider myself lucky that I bought it because I just missed the period that suffered from batteries that would burst into flames.

In fact, my biggest problem with Macs is what to do with old units. They don't die and you cannot give them away. No one wants them. I have 2 MacBookPros, a MacBook Air, 4 Mac Mini's and a fairly new iMac 27". Ages range back to about 20 years. I did give away an old MacPro. It had the best case that I've ever had. The person I gave it to turned it into a server.


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Originally Posted by Mike Rivers
I'm surprised at how many Mac Minis (and other Macs) have died. I'm running PCs, mostly Dells, that are over 10 years old and still going along fine. One thing I think helps is that one is still at WinXP, the others are at Win7, and if I try some new software that won't run on one or the other, I just don't use that software. I realize that not everyone can, or is willing to work (or not work) that way, but it works for me.

I do want to get a fresh laptop for travel to replace my Toshiba netbook, but that's just to get a bigger screen to rest my aged eyeballs. But I'll still have to get an old one because the newer ones are too big.
I recently sold my 2007 Black MacBook. It was working fine, except for a break in the monitor cable that would cause the display backlight to drop out at a certain angle (it would work fine at all other angles).

It's successor 13" MBP is now ten years old and works, but it lost Bluetooth and Wi-Fi at some point. Should be a fairly simple fix, but it's not worth bothering. That went literally *everywhere* with me for over five years, including hundreds of gigs as a MainStage machine, and took quite a bit of abuse.

Replaced it with a late 2016 15".

I've only had one "dud" Mac, and that was a 2003 12" Powerbook. Apple eventually replaced it with a refurb'ed 15".

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Sorry, but the M1 models can NOT be upgraded for either memory or internal SSD. Memory is built right into the M1 chip, SSD is soldered in place. Better buy what you want to start. (At least the current models, although a large part of where they get the speed is that the processor and RAM are right on the chip and can talk directly to each other.


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I'm on a 2012 MBP which is still running almost perfectly. I will likely have to replace it in the next two to three years and a Mac Mini is definitely near or at the top of the list, although I haven't put much thought into it yet.

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Originally Posted by MoodyBluesKeys
Sorry, but the M1 models can NOT be upgraded for either memory or internal SSD. Memory is built right into the M1 chip, SSD is soldered in place.

Soldering SSDs in place is a horrible idea. Sure, most SSDs work fine and have a long life. But some don't. Also, not being able to use two monitors on a laptop is going to be a deal-breaker for many people.

If Apple wants to position the M1 as something solely for traveling, that's fine. Just don't think it can be used in a typical business environment with a dock and multiple monitors, and you're good to go.

This is why I'm going to wait until 2022 before upgrading. I need something I can pull into a conference room and do serious work if needed, not just take it on a plane (although an M1 laptop does sound perfect for that!).

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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by MoodyBluesKeys
Sorry, but the M1 models can NOT be upgraded for either memory or internal SSD. Memory is built right into the M1 chip, SSD is soldered in place.

Soldering SSDs in place is a horrible idea. Sure, most SSDs work fine and have a long life. But some don't.

Trade-off, as always. Apple doesn't "solder SSDs in place"; as I understand it, they solder the storage chips down and tie them directly into the system controller. There is no "SSD" as such that they could modularise, as there is no extra SSD controller. This reduces cost, latency, and processing overhead, and stuff like encryption is "free" in that there is also zero processing overhead.

From my time in Mac support, I well remember that failing RAM, and especially the connector slots, were a really common problem that went away almost entirely when Apple switched to soldered RAM.

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Originally Posted by analogika
Apple doesn't "solder SSDs in place"; as I understand it, they solder the storage chips down and tie them directly into the system controller. There is no "SSD" as such that they could modularise, as there is no extra SSD controller. This reduces cost, latency, and processing overhead, and stuff like encryption is "free" in that there is also zero processing overhead.

That makes a lot more sense! Still, I much prefer designs that allow for user-replaceable parts. There are just too many situations for me that involve such tight deadlines I can't afford even 24 hours of down time.

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I'm in Mac Twilight Zone. If I'm going to take the M1 leap, I want to go all-in with another iMac. A sea-change upgrade always pulls the band-aid off only medium-fast, but I know the drill. The gain in speed and SSD power works for me.

The problem: M1 iMacs seem to be coming in dead last for release. I've debated Minis, but the tradeoffs don't thrill me. Laptops feel likewise compromised. Desktops suit my so-called work flow best, but I'd like to see how Apple's new everything-on-a-motherboard behaves in its first iteration.

Since its hard to imagine finally taking up Omnisphere without an outboard SSD to host it regardless, where is my gain in buying an M1 Mini before year's end? What's the sensible timeline for an OS shakeout period? Where are the pitfalls relative to simply getting Logic running ASAP? Slightly damaged inquiring minds would like to know.


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Originally Posted by David Emm
I'm in Mac Twilight Zone. If I'm going to take the M1 leap, I want to go all-in with another iMac. A sea-change upgrade always pulls the band-aid off only medium-fast, but I know the drill. The gain in speed and SSD power works for me.

The problem: M1 iMacs seem to be coming in dead last for release. I've debated Minis, but the tradeoffs don't thrill me. Laptops feel likewise compromised. Desktops suit my so-called work flow best, but I'd like to see how Apple's new everything-on-a-motherboard behaves in its first iteration.

Since its hard to imagine finally taking up Omnisphere without an outboard SSD to host it regardless, where is my gain in buying an M1 Mini before year's end? What's the sensible timeline for an OS shakeout period? Where are the pitfalls relative to simply getting Logic running ASAP? Slightly damaged inquiring minds would like to know.

Among the likely inevitabilities is Thunderbolt 4. I wonder how far off into the future it is with Intel posting articles like this one - https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...de-gaming-accessories-thunderbolt-4.html
I'm sitting out for a bit in any case but it sees to me that waiting for the next shoe to fall makes the most sense right now.


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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Among the likely inevitabilities is Thunderbolt 4. I wonder how far off into the future it is with Intel posting articles like this one - https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...de-gaming-accessories-thunderbolt-4.html
I'm sitting out for a bit in any case but it sees to me that waiting for the next shoe to fall makes the most sense right now.

TB4 isn't that much different than TB3. It has the same bandwidth, but Intel has updated its certification requirements for internal PCIe operation. There's also improved security but I think any TB3 peripherals should work with TB4.

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Originally Posted by David Emm
Since its hard to imagine finally taking up Omnisphere without an outboard SSD to host it regardless, where is my gain in buying an M1 Mini before year's end? What's the sensible timeline for an OS shakeout period? Where are the pitfalls relative to simply getting Logic running ASAP? Slightly damaged inquiring minds would like to know.

The longer you wait before buying a new computer, the less you'll regret your buying decision in a year smile This article articulates why I'm waiting until at least the end of this year before taking the plunge. Then the overall performance should be closer to, if not better than, Intel/AMD-based desktops. Then again, Intel and AMD are making their own improvements, but being less public about it. So it will be interesting to see where their chips sit in early 2022.

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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Among the likely inevitabilities is Thunderbolt 4. I wonder how far off into the future it is with Intel posting articles like this one - https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...de-gaming-accessories-thunderbolt-4.html
I'm sitting out for a bit in any case but it sees to me that waiting for the next shoe to fall makes the most sense right now.

TB4 isn't that much different than TB3. It has the same bandwidth, but Intel has updated its certification requirements for internal PCIe operation. There's also improved security but I think any TB3 peripherals should work with TB4.

I remember seeing somewhere that TB4 would be fully integrated with USB?.? so stuff doesn't get too much or not enough current anymore. I will have to wait in any case, should be able to get some more years out of my refurbished 2014 MacBook Pro even if I eventually have to get something for surfing the interwebz A Windows 10 machine can do that, I don't need anything fancy for the web.


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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
I remember seeing somewhere that TB4 would be fully integrated with USB?

TB3 is compatible with USB 3.2 but not the reverse, even though they use the same connector. At least that's the theory smile

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Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
I remember seeing somewhere that TB4 would be fully integrated with USB?

TB3 is compatible with USB 3.2 but not the reverse, even though they use the same connector. At least that's the theory smile

OK. So, who needs to fix what then? Any time you can plug 2 devices into the same connection and one will work great and the other will burst into flames, there's a problem, no?


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Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by KuruPrionz
I remember seeing somewhere that TB4 would be fully integrated with USB?

TB3 is compatible with USB 3.2 but not the reverse, even though they use the same connector. At least that's the theory smile

OK. So, who needs to fix what then? Any time you can plug 2 devices into the same connection and one will work great and the other will burst into flames, there's a problem, no?

It will take a while for everything to get ironed out, for sure. TB4 does have stiffer certification from Intel than TB3, so that might help...but...if the whole idea of having a standardized power connector with USB-C is to avoid having to carry around a boatload of adapters for all your different gear, it sure seems like we're heading in the direction of "approved" adapters, which means the "one adapter to rule them all" concept is at least flawed. Or maybe the companies making the adapters are cheaping out, and not providing sufficient protection...assuming it's up to them to provide protection, rather than the company making the target device.

Any questions why I'm in no mood to surf the bleeding edge just yet? smile

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Originally Posted by Anderton
Any questions why I'm in no mood to surf the bleeding edge just yet? smile

Not from me! I am a "wait and see" kinda guy myself.
Buying behind the curve saves $$$ and torment. My brother wrote code for decades, he was a bit of a techie and he used to say "On the cutting edge, there is pain."

Stuff is so good these days you really don't miss much by lagging behind except the bad ideas that go away later.


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I learned my lesson in the 1980's buying an early model Moog MemoryMoog. Wow, that thing was a $3700 18 oscillator headache. I would spend three hours every Sunday opening it up and tuning those 18 oscillators for tune, scale and range. If I skipped a Sunday then voices would start dropping out as they would drift so far out that autotune would disconnect them. I eventually replaced it with a DX7, waiting 8 months after their release before getting one. A big drop in sound, but a bigger improvement in reliability.


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Originally Posted by RABid
I learned my lesson in the 1980's buying an early model Moog MemoryMoog. Wow, that thing was a $3700 18 oscillator headache. I would spend three hours every Sunday opening it up and tuning those 18 oscillators for tune, scale and range. If I skipped a Sunday then voices would start dropping out as they would drift so far out that autotune would disconnect them. I eventually replaced it with a DX7, waiting 8 months after their release before getting one. A big drop in sound, but a bigger improvement in reliability.

I had a brief hallucination upon reading that, wherein Rick Wakeman squirted lighter fluid on a MemoryMoog and torched it. Wasn't it Dave Stewart who quipped about the major big-name megasynth concept, but it drifted a major third if you breathed near it? Quality control is so much better now, its almost a religious thing. There are always a few flops, but some flaws in an otherwise cool design are more like a drop of lemon, not the whole rind. No tape snarls, no power supplies that catch fire and make the crowd mistake it for part of the show.


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