Music Player Network

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
How to Deal with Windows Updates #3011850 10/10/19 06:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
I'm one of those people who does Windows updates. I'll hold off for a week or two, but I do update sooner rather than later. The only time I got bit was when there was a power outage, and my uninterruptible power supply didn't have enough juice to keep the computer going for the duration of the "do not turn off your computer" phase. So here are my recommendations...

1. Don't do "update and shut down," do "update and restart." It feels like when you restart after an update, Windows already knows what your computer is up to, and doesn't have to figure it out all over again upon bootup.
2. When the update process starts, Windows may do mysterious things and give you no indication of what's happening. I find that's an excellent time to walk away from the computer and have lunch, clean up the studio, watch paint dry, etc. Then when I come back and find the Windows desktop, I rejoice.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3011880 10/10/19 10:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,080
davedoerfler Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,080
Originally Posted by Anderton

1. Don't do "update and shut down," do "update and restart."



yeahthat always


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3011947 10/11/19 03:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
N
Nowarezman Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
N
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
I do update and restart and then go to bed.

nat

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3011952 10/11/19 03:43 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 5,855
T
The Real MC Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
T
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 5,855
Windows-free since 2013. No regrets.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: The Real MC] #3011980 10/11/19 07:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by The Creepy MC
Windows-free since 2013. No regrets.


Apple since 1985, Windows since 1995. Regrets along the way with both. smile I can count on my Mac for day-to-day, but Windows for year-to-year, which is why I use Mac for personal and Windows for my studio/business. Reconstructing the C: drive for Windows reminded me about just how good Windows is regarding backwards compatibility. I was able to re-install programs from well over a decade ago.

Frankly, at this point both OSes have borrowed so much from each other, the differences are in the nuances. What I find most concerning about Windows is the move toward having everything in the cloud, and minimizing local storage. It makes great sense for business, but not for individuals. What I find most concerning about the Mac is the laissez-faire attitude about computers. Apple, like Microsoft before it, has now officially been sucked in by the allure of "services."

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3011998 10/11/19 10:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 44
skypuppy123 Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 44
Having been involved with computers since the mid 70's , it's just amazing to me how much this technology has evolved that, I just get a kick out using one
that would have been the size of about 5 refrigerators back at that time. Have gone thru so many versions and upgrades but it's still a bit nerve racking to
see an update taking place - with Windows I haven't a clue what is going down the pipe.

Last edited by skypuppy123; 10/11/19 10:04 PM.
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3012041 10/12/19 10:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,298
Theo Verelst Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,298
About the updates on windows: you can turn them off when using W10pro. It's a bit of a registry thing IIRC, but I usually just regularly update the virus scan file, but rarely update, except possibly for some components. That works alright for many years already, even though I don't myself use that machine on windows often: it's dual boot able wit some recent enough Linux (Fedora).

Unix predates Microsoft and Apple ad as partly Open Source contained a lot of the elements still being dealt with by both already long ago. Except for strange UI mazes, there isn't much a modern machine can do fundamentally more than an early 90s unix workstation with X windows (the same components OS*X* now uses) and the early Mozilla Web Browser, and maybe even an interesting graphics pipeline. I used a "DOS" on the TRS-80 which existed already before "the PC" had been invented, and all kinds of graphics interfaces before windows 3.0 or what is was called became popular...

There still the perfectly usable LINUX as Free and Open Source alternative, that runs a large portion of web servers, cloud services, in a way Android devices, and hobbyists' and scientists' desktop machines! Often way more efficient and reliable, and it's likely both mac and windows, running on the same processor architecture, use GNU tools to compile their software, which come from Linux.

T

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: The Real MC] #3012049 10/12/19 11:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 224
Mike Rivers Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by The Creepy MC
Windows-free since 2013. No regrets.


Mac-free since it was invented.

Some regrets when it looked like it was the way to go for audio and far more expensive than the IBM PC clones, but I managed to keep computer-for-audio-free until things settled down and experimenting was inexpensive. I've taken brief excursions into Linux as an audio production platform, but given that the only advantage I could see, along with several disadvantages, is that "it's not Windows," I continue to set it aside.

For better or worse, I'm stuck with Windows until someone gives me an up-to-date Mac to try.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3012053 10/12/19 01:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
N
Nowarezman Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
N
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
Definitely set up restore points if that's not done automatically.

The cumulative effect of years and even decades of updates is something like wood worms and barnacles on a ship. Eventually some little bit or piece breaks down while speed is slowly but unavoidably reduced.

At some point you end up where the latest update was the last straw for something, and your PC fritzes trying to do something you've been doing for years.

The best thing for the update slow-crawling cancer is an occasional clean install. I used to do this routinely, but now I have so many programs it's a major pain to start from scratch - a couple of full days at least to get everything back up and running about.

What I do now is this - I take out my current (call it my "ongoing") Win10 HD, install a fresh new one, and install Win10 on it, do all the updates and get the basics going like Google, Office, printer, scanner, audio interface, other odds and ends. That doesn't take all that long. Then I return to booting off my ongoing HD and keep on using it, keeping the fresh install drive on the shelf next to the lava lamp.

Then when I'm starting to have problems with one of my programs on my ongoing HD, I try to work that out. If I can, great. But whether I can or can't, at that point I'll do a fresh install of the problematic program onto the clean install HD and see if the problem recurs. Which tells me a lot for purposes of trouble-shooting the ongoing HD installation. And as a bonus, I'm slowly preparing the fresh install HD for taking over and retiring the ongoing HD.

And if I happen to have a horrible crash with my ongoing, I already have a huge head-start getting set up on the new clean install HD.

And of course, the fresh/clean install HD runs circles around the aging ongoing HD and is usually far more stable and free from computer arthritis and temporary hangs. So I get this "feelin' 10 years younger!" thing computer-wise.

nat



Last edited by Nowarezman; 10/12/19 01:34 PM.
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3012071 10/12/19 05:36 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 5,855
T
The Real MC Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
T
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 5,855
No OS is perfect and I didn't intend this to denigrate into another endless Mac vs Windows debate. I gave up Windows because the peripherals on my WIN2K desktop machine would mysteriously stop working. I had a WINXP netbook that I had to take off the net because it kept getting infected by drive-by malware attacks. I worked with computers for 30+ years and am hardly a novice, but I am also a practical man and if I cannot depend on a machine to function reliably then I will look for a better one. By the time Win7 came around it required replacing EVERY component in my computer system; as long as I had to spend that much $$$, I decided to jump ship. OSX may have its faults, but it is more reliable and a lot less frustrating than Windows.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: The Real MC] #3012102 10/12/19 10:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,080
davedoerfler Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,080
Originally Posted by The Creepy MC
I didn't intend this to denigrate into another endless Mac vs Windows debate.


Oh, I was wrong. I'm sorry. laugh


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: The Real MC] #3012185 10/13/19 06:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by The Creepy MC
No OS is perfect and I didn't intend this to denigrate into another endless Mac vs Windows debate.


Either one is my favorite OS when it's working. Either one is my least favorite OS when it's not smile

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3012225 10/14/19 12:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,556
David Emm Offline
Platinum Member
Offline
Platinum Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,556
I stick with Macs for the same reason I have mostly stuck with Korg: their worlds let me get on with my work semi-gracefully without four levels of burning hoops per function. Its all a matter of personal approach now, but I loosely agree with the old saw: "Macs are designed from the user INwards. Windows is designed from the engineers OUTwards." Oddly enough, Jesus uses a Mac, whereas Satan uses Linux. deadhorse


I got kicked out of Riverdance for using my arms. ~ Gary Valentine
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3012311 10/14/19 06:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,674
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,674
Just read today that the "19H2" update will be called November, and that it won't be a total reinstall this time, but more like a big Cumulative Update; not as many changed things, so maybe less problems. The second of the two yearly updates is supported longer than the first each year.


Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Jim
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3012972 10/19/19 09:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
N
Nowarezman Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
N
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
Latest Windows 10 update fubar....

I was typing a response to my doc via the patient portal this a.m., when Win10 decides it must update right there, right then. It rebooted me without asking "now? or later?". The update took about an hour - at one point I got this ludicrous message "This is taking longer than expected, but we'll finish as soon as we can."

So it finished, auto-rebooted my machine, and what did I get?

Blank screen -oh, well, my little applet that shows my CPU temperature popped up. And a tiny box saying "Your personalized preferences" that went into "not responding" mode once clicked on. Absolutely nothing else. My Windows key did not bring any response. Alt-Control-Del brought up the usual choices, so I tried Task Manager. Nope - Task Manager won't run.

Got an error message that Windows Explorer could not run, "Wait? Or Shut down?".

So I uplugged all external stuff, did a hard reset a few times, same thing. Blank screen. Tried all the key combinations I could find. Nothing.

Next was getting on the wife's PC and, of course, finding hordes of other people in the same boat. And a few dozen, "try this's and try that's". I tried about a dozen. Finally, I found the way to get the Windows blue troubleshooting screen and was able to simply undo the latest update. I say "simply" but the pain in the ass still lingers.

Still, that worked! Yay, sort of. Once back up, I immediately went to get into my Windows Update Settings to make sure no more hijacking updates would occur. Can't get into Windows Update Settings - not via Control Panel, not via System Settings, not via command line, not via voodoo or a PC exorcism.

I did at least create a Restore Point the minute I got the update reversed.

So back again to the wife's computer to google up another couple dozen "try this's and try that's" for the problem with no access to Windows Update Options or Sytems Settings, for that matter, too - well, I'll try them later. Lost a couple of hours already today undoing Microsoft's latest genius update.

nat

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Nowarezman] #3013051 10/20/19 05:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by Nowarezman
I did at least create a Restore Point the minute I got the update reversed.


I think that doing a major update nukes any restore point you created. Also apparently, the registry backup function no longer backs up the registry! At this point, the only safe option is to image your hard drive.

That said, the reality is far more people don't have problems with Windows updates than do. But, given the number of people experiencing similar problems, it's doesn't speak well of Microsoft's beta testing procedures.

Deciding to do a fresh C: drive install has really helped my productivity. Yeah, it was a pain in the butt to re-install all those programs (although thankfully, companies are making the process much easier). But frankly, I can't complain. The only time I've had problems with updates was with my main music computer, which had Windows 10 overlaid on Windows 7 instead of being a clean install, and has had all kinds of abuse from loading in a zillion programs for reviews and testing all these years. However the straw that broke the camel's back ended up being a hardware issue that conflicted with the updates.

I did have two HORRIBLE updating experiences, one on Windows, one on Mac. I couldn't understand why it was impossible to do the updates. It turned out the problem in both cases was bad RAM - it had nothing to do with either OS. I've now added RAM checking to my backup and maintenance procedures.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3013160 10/21/19 05:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
N
Nowarezman Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
N
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by Nowarezman
I did at least create a Restore Point the minute I got the update reversed.


I think that doing a major update nukes any restore point you created. Also apparently, the registry backup function no longer backs up the registry! At this point, the only safe option is to image your hard drive.

That said, the reality is far more people don't have problems with Windows updates than do. But, given the number of people experiencing similar problems, it's doesn't speak well of Microsoft's beta testing procedures.

Deciding to do a fresh C: drive install has really helped my productivity. Yeah, it was a pain in the butt to re-install all those programs (although thankfully, companies are making the process much easier). But frankly, I can't complain. The only time I've had problems with updates was with my main music computer, which had Windows 10 overlaid on Windows 7 instead of being a clean install, and has had all kinds of abuse from loading in a zillion programs for reviews and testing all these years. However the straw that broke the camel's back ended up being a hardware issue that conflicted with the updates.

I did have two HORRIBLE updating experiences, one on Windows, one on Mac. I couldn't understand why it was impossible to do the updates. It turned out the problem in both cases was bad RAM - it had nothing to do with either OS. I've now added RAM checking to my backup and maintenance procedures.


I plan on doing the imaging thing. I need to buy another hard drive for the laptop to image to. I'm going to just sacrifice the DVD/CD reader/writer and install the new HD where the DVD reader is now. I have an external USB DVD/CD reader/writer that is faster than the one that came with the laptop, so no downside.

And yeah, Win10 overlaid on Win7 is like putting up a new building on Venitian real estate. With time, you'll have big problems.....

nat

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3015218 11/07/19 06:31 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,888
zeronyne Offline
I still exist
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
I still exist
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,888
Been a PC user since DOS 5 and Mac owner since the Mac Plus.

Still use both.

Really miss hardware DAWs. smile


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: zeronyne] #3015422 11/09/19 06:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by zeronyne
Been a PC user since DOS 5 and Mac owner since the Mac Plus.

Still use both.

Really miss hardware DAWs. smile


You can still get Alesis HD24s on eBay...

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3015452 11/10/19 12:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 224
Mike Rivers Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by Anderton
Originally Posted by zeronyne
Been a PC user since DOS 5 and Mac owner since the Mac Plus.

Still use both.

Really miss hardware DAWs. smile


You can still get Alesis HD24s on eBay...


You can still get Mackie HDR24/96s on eBay, too. And if you get tired of it, it has an Intel Celeron motherboard and it'll run Windows 98se, maybe even XP if you put more memory in it.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3015679 11/11/19 10:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,896
R
RABid Offline
10k Club
Offline
10k Club
R
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12,896
They need to rename "Update and shut down" to "Update and and the next time you turn on the computer we will keep you waiting while we take our time finishing the update while you yell at the screen that you are in a hurry."

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: RABid] #3015742 11/12/19 05:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by RABid
They need to rename "Update and shut down" to "Update and and the next time you turn on the computer we will keep you waiting while we take our time finishing the update while you yell at the screen that you are in a hurry."


You forgot "And you won't really know when it will be done. Could be seconds, could be hours."

But to be fair...I haven't had problems with updates (knock on silicon), except for the one that I can't really pin on Microsoft.

Last edited by Anderton; 11/12/19 05:25 AM.
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: RABid] #3015849 11/12/19 07:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,080
davedoerfler Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MPN Advisory Board
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,080
Originally Posted by RABid
They need to rename "Update and shut down" to "Update and and the next time you turn on the computer we will keep you waiting while we take our time finishing the update while you yell at the screen that you are in a hurry."


which takes us back to the beginning of this thread wink

Originally Posted by davedoerfler
Originally Posted by Anderton

1. Don't do "update and shut down," do "update and restart."



yeahthat always


A reason why I collect old keyboards is that I feel partly responsible for doing it, responsible for preserving history and being a custodian for these things
Plus, old gear has a story. I like that.
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3016644 11/18/19 10:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
And I'll add one more thing...

I updated my office computer, and it took less than a minute. It went through its incrementing percentage, warned me not to turn off the machine, and all was well.

But I also updated my music computer, and it stopped at 30%, restarted, went blank for an uncomfortably long period of time while the hard drive did its thing, finally the BIOS screen showed up...then another pause. Then the Windows welcome screen! Great!!

Except it went away for a while as well, then picked up at 30%, did the rest of the update, and all was fine.

So here's the other piece of advice: after you select "update and restart," just walk away and do something else. Come back in 15 minutes, and bypass the "Is it going to update? Is it going to die? Will I ever be able to boot my computer again?" lesson in anxiety! The odds are it will end up okay.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3016854 11/20/19 03:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,674
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,674
The most recent "feature update" from 1903 to 1909 version was released a couple of days ago. Did it on 3 W10 VMs under Parallels on Macbook Pro, did it on 6 hardware computers also yesterday.
Installs more like a normal monthly update. Start to finish on most of the above was less than ten minutes. Download was very fast, and didn't use the usual 3+ GB per machine download (unless one downloads and installs from DVD/USB). Reboot - screen went to about 30%, then first reboot, screen came back and spinner spun for a few seconds, then another reboot, when screen came back to login, the usual extra 5 to 10 minutes wait while the Modern Interface Apps are re-installed was missing - the machine(s) read to use (in my case, image backup was the next step).

However, winver.exe definitely shows that computer is now on 1909 version.

(added) one other thing - previous machine updates have varied a lot in time when it hit 75 to 80% while each application's registry information was moved to the new windows. This update took about the same amount of time on machines with similar processor, RAM, and SSD from computers that have very little added programs/data to systems that have massive amount of programs/data.


Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Jim
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3016877 11/20/19 07:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Aha! So THAT explains the "pause at 75% to 80%" phenomenon.

Good to hear the positive report on 1909...maybe my music computer updated to that. Just checked my office computer, still on 1903.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3017034 11/22/19 12:19 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,674
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,674
Added: At least at present, Microsoft is auto pushing the 1909 update. It will show up UNDER the list of updates, and you must push a button to initiate the process. Not to say that at some time in the future they may auto push it.


Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Jim
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: MoodyBluesKeys] #3017048 11/22/19 02:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by MoodyBluesKeys
It will show up UNDER the list of updates, and you must push a button to initiate the process. Not to say that at some time in the future they may auto push it.


It's encouraging that they took the criticism about updates to heart.

At the moment, it seems like the ire about updates has shifted to Apple, and the iOS 13 fiasco...not to mention Catalina breaking things. I'm sure it will all settle down at some point, but the Apple Faithful I know have had their faith shaken. As for me, I never expect things to work smile...so if they work, I'm happy. If they don't, I'm not surprised.

Interestingly, Microsoft has kind of followed the same path as Cakewalk. Cakewalk has introduced new features, but since being acquired by BandLab, the updates have been more about stability, workflow, and UI. I wouldn't be surprised if Windows does a breather, and sticks to fixes for the next several updates.

The only program that I update as soon as it's available is Studio One. I can always go back to a previous version, and the changes are usually focused in a specific area. So I assume they need to test only that area deeply, and can leave the others alone.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3017065 11/22/19 12:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 224
Mike Rivers Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 224
I'm pretty complacent with Windows - no updates, nothing later than Win7 - but I'm finding web sites that I've accessed for years that no longer work with even the latest version of Firefox, and some even have trouble with Chrome. Very annoying. But updates for my phone (a Motorola currently running Android 9) are something that I'm having a harder and harder time to keep up with. Every couple of months, there's an update that's only described as "security improvements" but something always changes when I install one. And apps aren't written to span updates, and hosts that the apps talk to change all the time, requiring updating the app before it can be used.

The other day I was in Home Depot trying to find something. I couldn't find a human so I went to the Home Depot app on my phone where they have a usually correct aisle locator. I had just used it a week ago for the same purpose, and this time I got a "you must update the application in order to use it" message. Not even a "well, I'll run this time but you'd better update to the new version when you get home." And the one SPL meter app that I was able to calibrate over a reasonably wide range quit working right after updating to Android 8. It runs, but the multi-point calibration lets you do it but it doesn't actually work. I wish everything that used to work would just continue to work, but there are too many balls in the air all the time.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3017081 11/22/19 05:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
That's one of the main reasons people bought iPhones - if your hardware could keep up with the OS, you could usually run the programs. Android is a hot mess, but my Android phone works...I'm not updating my iPhone until iOS 13 gets an "all clear."

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3017121 11/23/19 12:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,674
MoodyBluesKeys Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,674
Found out while searching for other stuff: Microsoft actually did the needed patching for W10 1909 in the September and October monthly updates, and the features were installed but not activated. That is why (if going from 1903) the update takes so little time - it is turning on the features already installed. (this information was from an official Microsoft page)

Speaking of IOS updates - i NEVER update the phone or tablets until the update has been out for close to a month, and I'm not seeing people in mass complaining about it (with the single exception that, when I got the new iPhone 8+, I did not unpair the iWatch 4. So - the system was trying to swallow ALL at once - IOS 12 to 13 AND watch OS 5 to 6.
It all did work without major problems, there were a lot of little things I had to do manually; but it stayed in update for quite a while.
I'm really liking the 8+ as compared to the standard size 6.


Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's
HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Jim
Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3017159 11/23/19 03:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,455
Markyboard Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,455
I think our mindset regarding Windows vs Mac is almost exclusively biased toward our prior experience, no matter how long ago and without regard for what else we were using at the time. Update issues, BSOD, virus prone, klugey/kitchy interface, audio pops, latency etc. We’ve all read and maybe posted about these for years. Yet if we don’t have the particular issue being discussed we may dismiss it as an individuals lack of knowledge/ability to troubleshoot, unique equipment, computer practices etc. For me it’s all about working style and personal preference since I’ve had success with both platforms.

I have updates scheduled during the 8 hours/day my equipment is powered off; the PC is always on. Other than when I see the boot up screen in the morning updates are transparent. Updates have never caused a problem or incompatibility with any of my software; maybe I’m just lucky, who knows? I get that some people are working all hours and this post was after a WTF occurrence that I too would be scratching my head over. But since the Mac / PC thing inevitably creeps into these type discussions I’ll also add I have no BSOD crashes, never had a virus (I’m always connected), no audio glitches, low latency and basically the shit just works all the time. And this was true for when I was on Mac almost 20 years ago as well. So what am I doing right?

I recognize I’m just a mere hobbyist, I’m not running tons of tracks simultaneously although I’ve attempted to stress my system out of curiosity at times. And I do run a fair number of VSTs concurrently. You guys that are deep into the inner workings of computers and operating systems are way beyond my experience and understanding. But some of your conclusions just don’t jive with my experience. Yes, I’m technical enough and more important determined enough to sweat through the difficult issues. But they always resolve and life is good for lengthy periods of time. There’s got to be a technical reason why my stuff works and for everyone else Window’s sucks .

I think it comes down to Windows Compatible not being an all or none proposition like it is with Mac. My experience with audio on PC is RME almost exclusively. Started with a Hammerfall 9652 and have been using a AES 32 PCIe card to an AD DA box for the last 12 years or so. And to this day I don’t think anything exceeds it including FireWire, TB, USB 3.0 . I did have a hell of a ground loop issue with the card that took me over to USB 2.0 for 9 months. That was until I got fed up with the latency and returned to attack the ground loop with a vengeance.

Now this is where the mythical cost delta between Windows and Mac starts to fall apart. To do Windows right it takes a very good performing PC (Best Buy special probably not going to cut it) and RME ain’t cheap although for me it has been in the long run. I’m not even sure about laptops as I always have used internal cards in a desktop.


Anyway I think there are Windows based solutions that truly make the hater’s repeated and tiring gripes old and invalid.







Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Markyboard] #3017178 11/23/19 07:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Originally Posted by Markyboard
But since the Mac / PC thing inevitably creeps into these type discussions I’ll also add I have no BSOD crashes, never had a virus (I’m always connected), no audio glitches, low latency and basically the shit just works all the time. And this was true for when I was on Mac almost 20 years ago as well. So what am I doing right?


I'm with you...as I said, "I'm one of those people who does Windows updates...the only time I got bit was when there was a power outage, and my uninterruptible power supply didn't have enough juice to keep the computer going for the duration of the "do not turn off your computer" phase."

BUT I've had issues with both Windows and Mac. It's unavoidable, although always fixable. The issue with me is I do so much testing of betas and have a hardware-intensive setup. I'm always pushing my computers to their limits, and it's a testimony to both platforms that they've performed as well as they have under the circumstances.

The reason for the complaints about Windows is that the permutations and combination of hardware and software are staggering. With Windows, one poorly written driver that's incompatible with some piece of hardware can bring the system to its knees. For example, until recently the 1909 Windows update was blocked because of issues with the Realtek Bluetooth driver. The people who have problems are the ones you hear about; millions of systems are updated without issues. But also, diagnosis is getting better. The Windows troubleshooting options keep improving, and the Intel driver assistant is great.

I do think Windows could be more explicit about updates ("The PC may restart several times, and seeing a blank screen for a period of time is expected"), and this would make people less nervous about updating. And Apple could be more transparent as well - it keeps telling me to update to Catalina, but doesn't say "If do update, you're going to lose a bunch of programs." You'd think it could look into the computer and see there are 32-bit programs.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Markyboard] #3017233 11/24/19 01:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 224
Mike Rivers Offline
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by Markyboard
I think our mindset regarding Windows vs Mac is almost exclusively biased toward our prior experience, no matter how long ago and without regard for what else we were using at the time.


I think this is more true today than ever, but also, more than ever today, budget takes a front seat too. For those of us who grew up working in offices back when the only computer was in a building downtown and there were a couple of terminals in the office for people doing scientific work, when computers started being moved to desktops, it was always PCs, never Macs. I'm sure this was a matter of cost, and the primary office functions - word processing and spreadsheets - worked just fine on those computers. With schools, it was the other way around, and, timeline wise, considerably later. Apple grabbed hold of the education market and the school "computer lab" was full of Macs. Then all the students got iPads. And with the day-to-day applications in schools including art, design, and video lessons, as well as portability, the Mac had the edge.

Quote
Update issues, BSOD, virus prone, klugey/kitchy interface, audio pops, latency etc. We’ve all read and maybe posted about these for years. Yet if we don’t have the particular issue being discussed we may dismiss it as an individuals lack of knowledge/ability to troubleshoot, unique equipment, computer practices etc.


Troubleshooting is one of those things that has pretty much gone by the wayside. In the 1950s and '60s, a teen could troubleshoot a car almost like he (and occasionally she) was born with the ability. But there's nothing physical or tactile about troubleshooting a computer - you can't feel a loose bolt, see a worn tire, or find a leaky hose. Troubleshooting techniques don't involve tools that have been around the house or garage since before you were born. And some computer troubleshooting software is only available to "the privileged" who want to keep their jobs. All us home-grown computer users have little in the way of troubleshooting tools than to re-install software. And - because Apple controlled virtually all the software running on their computers - there were fewer changes that affected operation when a new program or OS update came along. At least it used to be that way. Now, not so much - but we haven't learned to be better troubleshooters, either.

Quote
There’s got to be a technical reason why my stuff works and for everyone else Window’s sucks .


There is. What makes software easier to develop also makes operating systems more vulnerable to both unplanned and planned surprises. Yet, the average home computer user jumps on the latest gadget. And, unfortunately, most software installation programs are designed without an "undo" - when you uninstall a Windows program, there's usually some things left over that, hopefully, aren't harmful at the time but may get in the way of something that you install later. There are un-install programs (I use Revo) that do a pretty good job of cleaning up the mess when removing a program, but they're not perfect. And too much no-longer-needed stuff that gets loaded into memory when the computer boots up can eventually clog up even the most powerful computers. And because most users have no maintenance experience or training, they just blame it on "the computer."

Quote
Now this is where the mythical cost delta between Windows and Mac starts to fall apart. To do Windows right it takes a very good performing PC (Best Buy special probably not going to cut it) and RME ain’t cheap although for me it has been in the long run. I’m not even sure about laptops as I always have used internal cards in a desktop.


I've always had MS-DOS and Windows computers, never had a Mac. When I'm faced with working around someone else's, I'm usually baffled with the user interface and have to tell the owner what I want to do and watch (what seems to be a complex set of clicks) while it gets done. But then, I got a new-to-me refurbished computer recently that had Windows 10 on it. That lasted about five days before I wiped the hard drive and put Windows 7 on it. And I'll admit that I still haven't become fully conversant with Windows 7 after using it for about 3 years, because I keep remembering how I used to do it with Windows XP. But that's life.

Now, here's my current problem. The computer that I use on my desk (I have plenty of computers, each having a different primary function - they're cheap when you get them when when they're a few years old) - came from the used computer store with Win7 installed, so I just loaded it up with my standard applications and I've been using it trouble-free for close to a year. I have a builder's copy of Win7 that I use when I "refurbish" a computer, but I didn't bother installing it on this one. Last week I was editing some articles written in Microsoft Word (Office 2000 - I own it) and one had some equations in it that were formatted using the Microsoft Equation Editor, something that I routinely install when installing Word on a fresh computer. The equations displayed just fine on the "desk" computer and the editor worked when I tried to make a change in one. But I was re-working a section and didn't want to bugger up the original in case I didn't like what I wrote.

I opened a new file in Word, pasted in some text from the original article, and then tried to open the Equation Editor to type in an equation, and I couldn't find it. I looked in the Word Help to make sure I was looking for it in the right place. I was, and darn if it wasn't there. It's located in the Insert menu, under Object, and everything else that's supposed to be under the Insert menu was there EXCEPT Object! So, lacking any other troubleshooting skills or knowledge about this program, I did what every red-blooded American boy would do, and re-installed Word, making sure to include the Equation Editor when selecting what options get installed. That didn't change anything. Still no Insert/Object, so no Equation Editor. Yet, when I opened a file with an equation, just as before, I was able to edit the equation that was there.

That's when it occurred to me to think about the history of the computer, and that's where I discovered that the Windows authorization key for this one was different from the that for the five other Windows 7 computers loaded up from my builder's copy of Windows. Sure enough, Insert/Object/Equation Editor was present on all of those Word installations, all installed from the same Microsoft Office disks.

I'm completely baffled by this. As far as I can tell, this function on this menu of this application is the only thing I've encountered on this computer that doesn't work right. It's possible that one of the rare Windows updates that I installed on this computer that I haven't installed on other Windows 7 computers could be the source of the problem. My usual procedure when setting up a new computer is to manually run Windows Update ONCE before installing applications on it, because my Win7 installer is several years old (and probably so is whatever the used computer store where I bought this one is, too), and then don't do any more updates.

My solution - and this is probably the way it'll remain for the rest of this computer's life - is to keep a Word file with a simple "dummy" equation (created on a a different computer) in a handy place. If I'm working on a new document and I need an equation, I past that dummy equation into the file so that clicking on it will open the Equation Editor.

If I had Macs, the only difference between one OS installation and another would be the version number, so (wishful thinking) an update, at least one old enough to get updated to get rid of the known problems with the original update version, wouldn't change anything I didn't want to change.

I still don't know enough about this stuff.

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3017248 11/24/19 04:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,455
Markyboard Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,455

Originally Posted by Mike Rivers


Troubleshooting is one of those things that has pretty much gone by the wayside. In the 1950s and '60s, a teen could troubleshoot a car almost like he (and occasionally she) was born with the ability. But there's nothing physical or tactile about troubleshooting a computer - you can't feel a loose bolt, see a worn tire, or find a leaky hose. Troubleshooting techniques don't involve tools that have been around the house or garage since before you were born. And some computer troubleshooting software is only available to "the privileged" who want to keep their jobs. All us home-grown computer users have little in the way of troubleshooting tools than to re-install software. And - because Apple controlled virtually all the software running on their computers - there were fewer changes that affected operation when a new program or OS update came along. At least it used to be that way. Now, not so much - but we haven't learned to be better troubleshooters, either.



Yes! Troubleshooting is a logical sequence process and it’s the same for computers as it is for cars or refrigerators. I’m a EE so you might imagine my frustration when my wife or kids tells me their PC is hosed and as I’m trying to understand the problem they’re scrolling thru page after page and entering commands like Commander Data on the Enterprise. Or the refrigerator repair dummies that took 3+ months and 6 visits because each time they started from scratch and followed no logical isolation process. Pretty much forced me into learning refrigerator, microwave oven and water heater install/repair.

Originally Posted by Mike Rivers

I still don't know enough about this stuff.


You and me both. But I can always figure out what I need to when I need to.

Originally Posted by Anderton
The issue with me is I do so much testing of betas and have a hardware-intensive setup. I'm always pushing my computers to their limits, and it's a testimony to both platforms that they've performed as well as they have under the circumstances.

The reason for the complaints about Windows is that the permutations and combination of hardware and software are staggering. With Windows, one poorly written driver that's incompatible with some piece of hardware can bring the system to its knees. For example, until recently the 1909 Windows update was blocked because of issues with the Realtek Bluetooth driver. The people who have problems are the ones you hear about; millions of systems are updated without issues. But also, diagnosis is getting better. The Windows troubleshooting options keep improving, and the Intel driver assistant is great.



You’re the guy (or at least one of them ) I should be thanking for making my life easier. And it drives home my point that for people not wanting to deal with the crap on Windows (me for one) we need to research and seek out the tried and proven; even if it cost more initially. Of course with so many opinions and false claims out there we also need to do thorough research and draw smart conclusions. Hey, kind of like troubleshooting redwall

Great points throughout Mike and Craig

Re: How to Deal with Windows Updates [Re: Anderton] #3017281 11/25/19 03:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Anderton Online Content OP
MP Hall of Fame Member
OP Online Content
MP Hall of Fame Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,966
Whenever I discover a Windows weirdness, I write an article about it, and put it on craiganderton.org. That way it's there if I run into the problem again smile

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Anderton 

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3