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Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011026 10/04/19 02:39 PM
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I think the issue with my drummer is he has gotten to this point through perseverance, and time. But, he just does not have the talent.

A person can work really hard to become the best baseball player they can, learning the fundamentals, but if they do not have the ability to see the ball in ways the layman cannot, they'll never get past the casual player stage

Same thing with music. Someone can work really hard to learn the technique and theory, but if the ears aren't there, they will never get past the casual player stage.


Last edited by Mr. Nightime; 10/04/19 02:43 PM.

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.
So God helped him and created woman.

Now everybody's got the blues."

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Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011062 10/04/19 08:47 PM
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Mr. Mojo Risin Offline
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I feel like this is something I could work on more. Finding space within the sound and weaving. Anybody have any tips or advice for a young player? I can definitely be a bit "showy" at times, maybe too much.

Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Mr. Mojo Risin] #3011080 10/04/19 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Risin
I feel like this is something I could work on more. Finding space within the sound and weaving. Anybody have any tips or advice for a young player? I can definitely be a bit "showy" at times, maybe too much.


Tips?

Accompany a choir on piano.

Yes, I'm serious. I did that all through high school.

One of the best ways to learn teamwork and dynamic within an ensemble. And if you don't listen to what is going on around you, the director and the singers will not be shy about calling you out.

Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Mr. Mojo Risin] #3011082 10/04/19 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Risin
I feel like this is something I could work on more. Finding space within the sound and weaving. Anybody have any tips or advice for a young player? I can definitely be a bit "showy" at times, maybe too much.


Well, early on, I was very focused on being showy and standing out from the crowd. And then it wasn't so important.

One of the bands I play in is a Grateful Dead tribute. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it's all about the weaving and blending in. With Dead music, it's the vocals and lead guitar, and everything else is backing. When someone's singing, it's time to lay back. Gentle comping.

Between phrases, there's an opportunity for a short artistic fill here and there. Even if lead guitarist decides to do a short fill, we blend well. During verses, the guitarists are mostly playing straight rhythm when folks are singing, so I do accents and random syncopated comp parts. I just want to keep it all interesting to listen to.

When the lead guitarist is going for an extended solo, first round I lay back and do comping layers, second round I engage, weave and do counterpoint to what he's doing. He goes up, I go down. He goes down, I go up. I'll pick up whatever phrasing he's doing, and recycle it with a few mods. Whatever tonal scale he's playing in, that's me -- for the most part. Although a few times we've chosen different modes, and it can end up pretty cool -- at least, in moderation. The crowd loves it, btw.

Others will tell you, it's all about the ears. Listen to what others are doing, and hope they do the same. Less is more, for the most part.


Life is too short to be playing bad music.

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Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Mr. Mojo Risin] #3011085 10/04/19 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Risin
I feel like this is something I could work on more. Finding space within the sound and weaving. Anybody have any tips or advice for a young player? I can definitely be a bit "showy" at times, maybe too much.


Think of a band as a running conversation between a group of friends. Don't be the guy who is always talking over his friends, interrupting them, completing their sentences for them, and such. Let them say what they want to say.

Consider what you do to encourage, acknowledge and appreciate when someone makes a point that touches you in a conversation. You say stuff like, "Really?" or "Tell me more..." or "Man, I'm so sorry...".

Play the musical equivalent when others are saying something. Leave enough room so that others can contribute to the overall conversation.

And when it's your turn to say something, say something really personal and important, and land the plane well so the next person can pick it up and keep the dialogue going.


"I'm not just untalented. I'm multi untalented."
Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Mr. Mojo Risin] #3011109 10/05/19 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo Risin
I feel like this is something I could work on more. Finding space within the sound and weaving. Anybody have any tips or advice for a young player? I can definitely be a bit "showy" at times, maybe too much.
Here's a thread with a lot of tips and advice for younger players.

What Older Keys Players should say to Younger Keys Players

And what I would add to the good advice you're already getting - - if you can get to a place where you are making your bandmates sound better, then you're on the right track.


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Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011335 10/07/19 01:38 PM
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I'm not sure why that sort of behavior CONTINUES after joining a band unless no one points it out, but I imagine the prevalence of it these days is due to the Internet (I know, blame everything on the internet). It's really easy to "feel" like you are playing with a band my just playing along to YouTube all day. But what a lot of these musicians are missing is the feedback you get from playing with a groups of humans, each with their own motivations and idiosyncrasies. I love sequences are sampled grooves as much as anyone, but that's a very different animal to jamming with people. When I was young, I was just happy to be there playing live whether it was a garage or a venue. But I'm much pickier now. I should be more positive about it, but if no one else "signed" a social contract, I certainly am not going to be the only guy following the rules.


"For instance" is not proof.
Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011343 10/07/19 02:24 PM
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Like I said in the other thread there are a lot of guys that do something because they think they can. People just don't think about it. My Judo instructor said one time "just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should" It's the same here. I think for being a keyboard/piano player the level we have to be at is so much higher just to play out, even as a semi-professional. Other instruments don't demand that level of proficiency, even to do a bar gig. We meet other musicians and try to form or join groups. I think what ends up happening a lot of the time is a mismatch in ability and understanding of music. More is expected of us than the other musicians we are playing with so we end up expecting it from them. I see it all the time. You really have to be aware of a lot as a musician. As we get older some of us get more seasoned and mature some don't. I know a ton of guys around town in their 60's talking about the old days that haven't developed musically beyond where they were as much as socially. I understand not everyone wants to be better but these are the same guys that complain about things without making a change in themselves.


"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"


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Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011363 10/07/19 04:11 PM
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Whatever stage we are at, is immature to whatever stage we are at next. smile But I agree with you that the baby-rattle-snake tendency of "here is every move I've got, no matter the situation" gets fatiguing over the course of a gig.

West Coast is very chopsy, and you can definitely both get shred-fatigue and also CREATE shred fatigue, often. My project in the last few months has been to go back to more "singable" solos, which is a bit more East Coast style. It allows more freedom for the chopsy moments, but also requires far more rigor in note-choice and phrasing. It's been a fun and humbling rehab project.


"
Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: MaskOfInsects] #3011368 10/07/19 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MaskOfInsects
My project in the last few months has been to go back to more "singable" solos, which is a bit more East Coast style. It allows more freedom for the chopsy moments, but also requires far more rigor in note-choice and phrasing. It's been a fun and humbling rehab project.


It's been my goal for some time, with varying degrees of failure. You're right, it is quite humbling but a worthy goal and quite the exercise in learning to play good music.

aL


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Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011386 10/07/19 05:40 PM
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As a horn player, one of the things I know that makes solos more singable is to breathe. It forces you to phrase. The leader at the weekly jam plays guitar and sings. But he was originally a flute/sax player and sometimes plays flute or sax at the jam. His guitar solos are not flashy shred-fests. Instead they are quite singable because he instinctively phrases like a horn player -- he "breathes" even though he's playing guitar. In contrast, there's another player at the jam who I call the Fastest Guitar in the West -- more notes per second than anybody else on the planet. His solos go on for a long time at high speed with never a break in his runs through various scales. Some people applaud his shredding. Other musicians and some people in the audience are put off by this. It's all about having something to say in your solo. Run on sentences work for some people, not for others. Meaningful musical sentences said with feeling and ending with periods make statements that the listeners can connect with. Breathing helps to do that.

Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011398 10/07/19 07:41 PM
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A good example of what you're talking about is B.B. King. When he would play a solo, he would think of it like his guitar was singing. Did not play a lot of notes, but every one of them was perfectly placed,

Then there's Carlos Santana. He was able to play very fast, but many times he would opt for just a few notes to get his message through. Look at his solo on the Moonflower version of Europa. He had one section where he held one note for at least 13 seconds. Master class


"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.
So God helped him and created woman.

Now everybody's got the blues."

Willie Dixon




Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011402 10/07/19 08:03 PM
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See for example Miles Davis. Universally recognized as a jazz genius. Leaves lots of space in his solos. Doesn't play lots of notes.

Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011413 10/07/19 09:14 PM
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Or Kenny G.

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roll You thought I was serious for a second, didn't you? grin


The great thing about music is that there's always something to learn. The frustrating thing about music is that there's always something to learn!
Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011455 10/08/19 04:49 AM
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While there are some great self-taught musicians, too many are simply “untaught,” and would benefit a lot from some formal instruction.


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Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011472 10/08/19 02:02 PM
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Outkaster Offline OP
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See that's why I bitch about a guitarists a lot around here. They are the ones that are usually self taught. Drummers also. They'd get a lot of some formalized instruction.


"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"


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Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011667 10/09/19 06:02 PM
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My formal instruction and knowledge of music theory came entirely from on-the-job training. I wouldn't say I'm self-taught. I'm taught by 50 years of gigging, in more bands than I can remember, let alone count.

Re: Musical Immaturity [Re: Outkaster] #3011783 10/10/19 11:40 AM
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That can work also.


"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"


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