One sound guy's perspective on keys

[vonnor]

When I run sound I ride the guitar and keys channels all night, and the vocal channels as needed. Since both guitar players and keyboard players (I'm one of the latter) often don't get relative levels set very well. That is, volumes from rhythm to lead for guitarists, and from pads to comping to signature lines and solos for keyboardists.

 

If I'm not riding those channels a song mix can sound like garbage. If I'm doing my job as an active sound engineer, most of the tunes come out passable or better in FOH.

 

~ vonnor

[Delaware Dave]

Record the shows (as you mentioned that you already do) then point out the instruments that stand out in the recording (I'm sure the Bass and guitars stand out) and have him explain to you why those instruments are OK to standout but not the keys.

[Barryjam]

Obviously, any recording done to ascertain the audience experience should be recorded from out in the audienceâ-not a board/mixer LR mix. Board mixes will often falsely have keys appear hotter than what audience hears, especially if guitar and bass are amped and kick and snare are hyped in post-board subs/mains speaker processing.

[RandyFF]

Hmmm.... Yamaha digital desk, curious which one? Who handles the tech?

 

So you're saying your personal in-ears are a copy of the FOH mix? More details please, sounds great!

[hazerkeys]

I run our own sound using a Behringer xr-16 which feeds two Mackie 450 mains and a sub (we have QSC for our vocal monitors) - mix is great and keys are nice in the mix - We did do a festival this summer and the sound guy was horrible.. could not hear voice in monitors .. had no idea that some songs are key heavy (Doors, etc) and some are not (ZZ top, etc) ....... I have had similar "rock is guitar" experience with sounds guys and hate their apparent disdain for keys

[Nathanael_I]

I mix at church once or twice a month. So I hear the band from both perspectives. We run balanced mixes. If it is making noise on stage, it should be heard in the mix.

 

Practically speaking, guitars and keyboards occupy mostly the same range. Kick and bass get the low end. Obviously who is playing what matters tremendously. But if I am having trouble with masking (big distorted guitars), the EQ is all that is needed. A small 1-2 db dip and a corresponding push in the keys makes room. It is also sometimes necessary to do a similar dip to keep the words on top (a big deal for church). These kind of small tonal adjustments don't change anything in terms of musical meaning, but do a lot to give every instrument a place to be heard, and then the ear will pick up and fill in the rest.

 

And, as pointed out, there are "guitar songs" and there are "keyboard songs". Playing accordingly makes a huge difference, which will not be news to anyone here...

 

But I don't understand being a sound guy and not making everything heard and sounding excellent and balanced.

[3rdAct]

It sounds like some keyboard or guitar players mix the band from stage. How hard is this to do? I imagine it could be quite distracting, especially if you had to ride the levels somewhat. Otherwise, this could potentially be a good option in general.

[WesG]

I do this all the time. It sucks ass. I can do a much, much better job mixing when I am not in the band.

 

My strategy, roughly, is to send myself a post-fader mix. Everything at unity, except bass, guitars -10, my vox +5, keys +3, Leslie horn +3. Set lists are planned so that I am not needed for at least the first 1.5 songs of the night, and during the first 30 seconds of a song where the singer is singing for the first time that night. That lets me grab my iPad and mix out front. Otherwise, I make adjustments with the faders on the console, which is on top of the Leslie, at my left. The console has a soft key programmed to kill the effects bus, so that the vocals are intelligible between songs.

 

The biggest problem is that my vocals and the keyboards are often not balanced well out front. Vocals aren't TOO bad if I use a wireless mic, since I can walk out front, sing harmony on a tune and mix myself. But keyboard levels tend to be hit and miss. If there are musicians or band wives in the audience, I get them to tell me if I'm too loud.

 

That said, I prefer my mixes to a lot of other sound guys' in the area. *sigh*

 

This was recorded multitrack and mixed by a pro with actual industry recognition:

Here is the same track recorded with a Zoom recorder, my stage mix:

 

Watch through in particular to the piano solo. Assuming you like The Grateful Dead anyhow, LOL.

 

My stage mixes are better now, too, that one was before I went X32, but I wanted to compare apples with apples.

 

One recommendation I can make is: if you are mixing from stage, either go digital or only mix one band. And then record shows with a Zoom. Tweak your starting point mix at home to address any glaring problems.

 

[WesG]

And here's a less flattering version of that song --

-- tempo is a snoozer IMO.

 

This is a later version; I've gone digitial; again, recorded out front with a Zoom recorder. This time, the mix is alright but my vocals are too loud. If I hadn't been stuck on stage, that would have never happened.

 

PS - two things to notice in that video:

1) I turn up the piano for the solo. Remember, mixing is a team sport!

2) I can tell from how I'm playing that I was struggling with my right hand that day. Protruding disc in my neck, cut me some slack.

 

Wes

 

PPS - I think the takeaway here, sadly, is that while my mixes show off the keys better, the pro's mix is overall better and more polished. Sometimes we gotta take one for the team. Although I wish that fella were more familiar with Dead music: Keith was quite prominent --

[J. Dan]

I haven't mixed from stage for a long time, but when I did, the whole band did all we could to make sure our individual levels/patches/etc were consistent throughout the night. We used electric drums, small guitar amps or amp sims, ran direct as much as possible, etc. We would take turns stepping out front during sound check until we all felt we had a good mix. We usually didn't have to touch the mix the rest of the night. Once in a while one of us would jump out front just to check.

 

Regardless of who is mixing or what the circumstances are, having your patches lined out ahead of time means you'll have a better mix. To me, that means not relying on the sound guy to turn up the piano for a solo - I do that. Then he doesn't have to know that there's a solo there. Even a good sound guy, if he's not super familiar with the material, will at BEST, take a few seconds to realize there's a piano solo going on and get you turned up halfway through. My goal is for the sound guy to not half to touch the faders but nice sound check is complete. That will never be the case, but it's a good goal to strive for.

[WesG]

As usually, J Dan is on the money. As a sound guy, I hate 0layers who don"t turn up for their solos...that always means I am late!

 

In my dead band, I pushed my guitar and bass players to get wireless rigs. They can give feedback on keys now. It really makes a difference when they remember. I can"t wait to hear last Sunday"s show.,

[3rdAct]

Thanks Wes and Dan. Our band will have to see if we want to try mixing from stage, but doesn't sound like it would be my first choice!

 

And, yes, I try hard to set my patches at consistent levels. I've also tried turning up a little during solos, so at least the keys could be heard then. But the sound guy usually brings it back down.

[CowboyNQ]

Late to this thread Joe, but just another voice of support - your sound guy seems clueless to me. None of what you've quoted him saying makes the least bit of sense. I'm really pleased your band is supporting you and taking positive steps to remedy the situation.

 

There are one or two local guys here who do sound who are a bit the same. They have this reputation for being A-grade sound men by virtue of the fact they've got the gear and are reliable, but they have ears made of cloth. And I'm not even talking about mixing keys, just mixing bands well in general. You soon learn who to avoid by going out and watching a few shows!

[J. Dan]

If you think about it, almost every guitar player switches channels or hits a boost pedal for their solos. Keys players should be doing the same. I sometimes save 2 versions of the same patch at different levels. More often, let's take piano as an example, a darker sounding piano for most of the song, and a brighter louder one for solo. Organ players are used to this, working the swell pedal and drawbars.

[El Lobo]

If you think about it, almost every guitar player switches channels or hits a boost pedal for their solos. Keys players should be doing the same. ... Organ players are used to this, working the swell pedal and drawbars.

Yes. I ride the swell pedal when I''m playing organ, and I pull out all the drawbars if I'm trying to be heard above the roar. I ride the same pedal as a volume pedal when I'm playing piano or EP. The only problem comes when the volume pedal is floored and so is the volume on the keyboard and on my QSC speakers and somehow the band has gotten louder and the keyboard is not high enough in the FOH mix and I can't go any higher. Recently I learned to keep the gain level on the keyboard at about 2 o'clock so I still have some headroom if I need it later.

 

[J. Dan]

I always set my patches so that 100% on my pedal is just a little louder than I think it should be so that I have it when I need it. Also, I set my patches and so my soundcheck with my master volume at noon. That leaves me room for creeping volume.

[erik_nie]

Hmmm.... Yamaha digital desk, curious which one? Who handles the tech?

 

So you're saying your personal in-ears are a copy of the FOH mix? More details please, sounds great!

 

In our yamaha desk (01V96), I use a bus output stereo as my in ear mix. This has all the live channels at the same levels as the FOH output (accept hihat and cymbal mics, they are too hissy (is that a word?) for my in ear)

I've done this for years so I can notice if there is a sound mismatch.

Like the new great lead sound of our guitar player that is just too weak our the singer who is lost in the mix in the last set.

During a set I point to a player and point up or down and they know that they are too loud or too soft and adjust themself on their instrument or walk to the desk and ride the fader.

My bottom keyboard has all the piano sounds + layers and is fixed in volume. My top board has all the other sounds (brass, b3, synth and all splits) and is controlled by a volume pedal. at max it is just too loud (120%)

 

We typically alwyas have the same mix setup in our in ear: during rehearsal, with our own FOH and with external hired FOH.

 

Our soundcheck lasts 5-10 minutes, default it is already 90% right, so we could do without.

- play a few MP3 files (always the same) and adjust the crossover and output EQ to compensate for the room.

- play a song for our female singer and adjust mix of band. Mainly Kick / snare and voice

- play a song for our male singer

 

During the first set I try to walk the room once (during a none-keyboard song, or where i can skip the first part of the song) and adjust for the presents of people.

[Mr. Nightime]

In our case the bass player does the sound - it's his PA.

 

He'll get out front during the first song to verify the mix, then make any adjustments needed. Overall, it's not too hard for him, in that we all keep our feed levels the same gig to gig.

 

Our biggest hurdle is our drummer (which will be corrected soon, but that's another story). He'll be the first to tell everyone that we need to be volume conscious, then he will be the loudest of us all, because of his total lack of dynamics, nuance, and subtlety.

 

I run two expression pedals, one for the piano, and one for the Hammond. I use the Hammond pedal as expected. The piano, is mostly for overall volume, bring it down a bit for comping, up for solos, but there are times where I need to ride it, for things like horn section swells.

 

But we have it dialed in enough where as long as I don't reach over and crank the feed to the FOH, I stay in the pocket.

 

Locating and staying in the pocket is has always been one of my strong suits. Many years ago, when I lived in the Tacoma WA area, there was another band that were friends ours. Their keyboard player and I really didn't hit it off at first, He was a Roland enthusiast, I was a staunch Korg player, until one night where he invited me to sit in using his rig.

 

After the first song, he came to me and commented how I had been able to locate the perfect level for the keys right away on an unfamiliar rig. Not too loud, but loud enough to actually be heard. We were friends and contemporaries ever since.

 

 

[Synthoid]

Their keyboard player and I really didn't hit it off at first, He was a Roland enthusiast, I was a staunch Korg player

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ce4OF66Q2Sg/Tuo-wDIJQEI/AAAAAAAADpE/SGD8kNSiZ64/s1600/Civil_War_Battle_Scene_1887_William_T_Trego.png

 

 

 

[3rdAct]

Late to this thread Joe, but just another voice of support - your sound guy seems clueless to me. None of what you've quoted him saying makes the least bit of sense. I'm really pleased your band is supporting you and taking positive steps to remedy the situation.

Yes, I am fortunate that the whole band is on the same page. Hopefully the bandleader will be able to make some headway.

 

There are one or two local guys here who do sound who are a bit the same. They have this reputation for being A-grade sound men by virtue of the fact they've got the gear and are reliable, but they have ears made of cloth. And I'm not even talking about mixing keys, just mixing bands well in general. You soon learn who to avoid by going out and watching a few shows!

Yes, this is the problem. Our guy has good gear, knows how to set it all up, and is very reliable. All great. Because of that he thinks of himself as a sound guy. But the listening and mixing skills are just not there. Honestly, though, if he was just good at taking input from the band, it would probably work out much better, if not ideal.

 

[Mr. Mojo Risin]

This thread has provided interesting perspective! Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. For a younger player like myself, it's very helpful to hear about what you all have been through.

I notice bassists tend to complain about the volume of the keys, especially when you start playing notes lower than A4. I also notice organ sounds especially with a lot of fast Leslie tend to sound much louder than they actually are. Maybe its just the way the sound fills the room?

[stoken6]

I also notice organ sounds especially with a lot of fast Leslie tend to sound much louder than they actually are.

There's something about inherent motion in a sound that makes it more perceptible ("cut through"). I've had plenty of situations where I'm sure my organ is inaudible, but hit the switch and it's right there.

 

I try very hard to use sounds that can be "present" at moderate volumes, to avoid dominating the mix.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

[LennyTunes]

In Austin, there are a lot of fun jams in smaller venues, often with some really great players. Often impromptu (no IEM's), it can get loud with much of the mix coming from stage amps, so I'll bring stage wattage as well. I am sometimes told that my keys are too loud, but I know they are WAY lower than the guitars or caveman drummer. I've considered getting an inexpensive dB meter to help prove the point and fight this war... But na.

[synthizen2]

It"s amazing how often I prefer set and forget over the random sound guy.

 

Absolutely!

 

My classic rock covers band now does this, after several bad experiences with some local sound "engineers".

 

We now just use our own Mixer/PA system, set it and forget it (other than a few tiny adjustments during the first song)... and we are sounding GREAT... better than ever.

 

And we get to keep the $$ cut that the sound "engineer" would normally get.

 

WIN WIN all around.

 

 

[BigJPatton]

That's why I use a Motion Sound KP-500S, take the sound guy out of the equation, do I need a line out at Madison Square Garden? nope, I'm good, everyone will hear me just fine, maybe I'll turn the volume up to 7 for the people in the back.

[synthizen2]

...then the bastards turn up my monitor so it sounds like I'm hot, then turn me down in the mains so I disappear. Then I have the band tell me I'm too hot in the Mix!! WTF? You can't win.

 

I never (anymore) rely on the sound person to send my own sound back to me through my monitor. It never works out.

 

I always make sure to send my keys DIRECTLY to my own monitor, via the AUX 1/4" outputs on my DI's (or, by making all my patches mono, and sending the L side to my monitor and the R side to FOH). Then I can control my own monitor level regardless of what the sound person is doing.

 

[S_Gould]

I am sometimes told that my keys are too loud, but I know they are WAY lower than the guitars or caveman drummer.

 

Sad to say, but there are a lot of (non-muso) people who seem to think keys in an ensemble should just barely be heard. There are also quite a few musicians (non key players) who agree. Unless you're Billy Joel or Rick Wakeman, the audience isn't there to hear you. We just got the board tapes from a fairly big gig (1500 seat arena 2nd to top act) and my keys were mostly inaudible when I had a featured or solo part, but ocasionally turned up LOUD when comping or playing background textures for atmosphere. Both guitarists were way hot on rhythm parts and cranked to 11 for leads.

[BluesKeys]

I saw a similar discussion on FB! I believe many sound guys are frustrated guitarist and I have met only a few guitarist who wanted keys in their mix! I piped in on a bass player that I work with (not my band) that commented that ALL KB players play too loud. I asked him to tell me when he thought I was too loud, and his response was "I was just busting some chops." This is bass player that if he knows the song is ok, but if he doesn't know it he cannot listen and learn it on the fly! I would fire him just because he doesn't use his ears in stage. The whole point is KB players are discriminated against!

[Synthoid]

Sad to say, but there are a lot of (non-muso) people who seem to think keys in an ensemble should just barely be heard. There are also quite a few musicians (non key players) who agree.

 

Unfortunately true. And hopelessly illogical.

 

 

[John Tweed]

Sad to say, but there are a lot of (non-muso) people who seem to think keys in an ensemble should just barely be heard. There are also quite a few musicians (non key players) who agree.

 

A couple of years back I found myself in a tribute show band where the drummer, if he could hear me at all, thought I was too loud. He was quite a good drummer for the band"s repertoire, but he only wanted to hear the guitar even though the songs heavily featured keys. I couldn"t use my Space Station at all, due to it"s non-directional sound. As it turned out the band did not get the gigs it had hoped and faded away. There were a few less formal gigs that came through for basically the same collection of players, but after declining a number of them they stopped calling. Life"s too short to not enjoy all my gigs to the full.