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Musical Immaturity


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It"s amazing to me on how many musicians have no awareness of where they are when performing. I feel like with some people they don"t have any idea of where they are in a song or what their role is. Sometimes it"s good players technically that just can"t seem to fit into an ensemble situation. One group I sit in has this problem with one member who overplays. The other night I didn"t play two of my solos because this guy just wasn"t paying attention to anything. I guess I don"t get it, there must be some kind of disconnect somewhere. I am not talking about just keyboard players either. I see this everywhere I go, even bands that are popular or have high levels of musicianship will have one member that kills it for everyone else. I am not sure how rampant this is but I see it in this region all the time in three different cities I play in.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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I often wonder if people like this are like that in real life, too. Fortunately I haven't encountered this for long periods in bands.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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I'm lucky enough to not play with anyone like that these days, but every now and then I'll hear a band that sounds like nobody is playing the same arrangement, and it's sort of a marvel. It's like when you listen to a DIY record where everyone played to a click track but nobody listened to any of the other parts -- except that's how the arrangement (or lack thereof) actually sounds.

Samuel B. Lupowitz

Musician. Songwriter. Food Enthusiast. Bad Pun Aficionado.

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It"s amazing to me on how many musicians have no awareness of where they are when performing. I feel like with some people they don"t have any idea of where they are in a song or what their role is. Sometimes it"s good players technically that just can"t seem to fit into an ensemble situation. One group I sit in has this problem with one member who overplays. The other night I didn"t play two of my solos because this guy just wasn"t paying attention to anything. I guess I don"t get it, there must be some kind of disconnect somewhere. I am not talking about just keyboard players either. I see this everywhere I go, even bands that are popular or have high levels of musicianship will have one member that kills it for everyone else. I am not sure how rampant this is but I see it in this region all the time in three different cities I play in.

 

Could be off nites, ADD, ADHD or lack of interest. Or lack of sleep.

 

Playing the same part 100's of times in less than a year might be not be very exciting. Or the cover song doesn't connect with the 1 musician.

 

Guessing a list of 20 reasons that might fit the 1 night or more.

 

No hard accurate answers just kicking it around.

 

 

 

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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I've gotten positive results by setting up a recorder (I use a Tascam DR40) out in the room somewhere. A small Gorilla Pod can allow placement in a safe spot sometimes, a must have accessory.

I'll quietly set it up, turn it on and let it record the entire evening.

Then I will drop the track into a DAW and edit out the breaks.

Give everybody a copy, say nothing. Just "here is a recording of the gig last week."

 

If nothing changes after 3 of these recordings it is time to consider changing personnel, which may include giving notice and finding something else to do.

You will find yourself changing things that made you cringe, this is progress too.

 

The recording removes the "ego factor", it simply tells the truth - good, bad and ugly.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I have a pretty good idea how to practice technique and stuff like music theory. I'm also quite well aware that the aspect of things being discussed here is something else and likely my top priority at the moment. It seems getting good at functioning in a band just requires putting in a ton of time playing with people and shedding so much that one isn't spending much mental effort on the playing alone. Certainly there's upfront work like knowing the form and practice beforehand, but really good musicians have a ton of tools and can often just play a song cold better than I can play it after a lot of practice. Moreover, practice which leads to being able to play something exactly one way isn't the same as being able to do what good bands actually do.

 

Would love any advice on how to get better at this other than just racking up playing time. I mostly play drums and am working on learning keys partly so I know the melodic and harmonic structure as well as the rhythmic one.

 

Some folks I play with have no vocabulary for rhythmic concepts and get kind of prickly about it. E.g. I say "Intro is four bars. Pickup is on the and of three in the fourth measure and then it's an eight measure form." And someone says "You and your measures and ands. No one gets that crap." There's actually an attitude that having a formal structure in one's head instead of just feeling it is an insult to the music or something.

 

-Z-

 

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I'm not shy about pointing out immature habits to musicians. A year ago I confronted problems with a new guitar player. I made every attempt to be constructive as the guy was a good player but a complete novice at working with an ensemble especially STFU when someone is singing. They chose guitar player, so singer & me packed it up and left. That band played one or two gigs since, that's it. In this town if you play too loud you don't play at all, barowners will kick you out.
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The recording removes the "ego factor", it simply tells the truth - good, bad and ugly.

 

I do the same. Firstly because I want to listen to what I was doing and work on the rough spots, etc. People seem to fall into two categories: those who thank me for the recordings and those who never listen to them :-)

 

-Z-

 

 

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My buddies and I talk about this and see it as big part of problem with so few places to play anymore, we were young we all had fake IDs or just sweated it out playing little bars and school dances and learning how to play in a group and as a group how to play for an audience. Where I'm at now only a few places mainly VFW's that have music and most have a bad reputation for screwing over bands (last minute cancelations, not paying the agreed amount, etc).

 

The local college has band classes, but rock and instructors doing the comments don't talk stage presence, pretty much started and stopped together so your a band now. You see some of these kids play around town and just stand around on stage staring at each other, but not listening. I feel sorry for kids these days at least when I was kid there was live music everywhere even little dive bars would have live music on weekends. In school we'd go to the frat parties because they usually had good bands. We walk around fraternity row listening for a good band, then knock on the door and offer a six pack of beer to hang out and listen to the band. It was all part of learning to play.

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A couple of other examples of this come to mind: practicing or demonstrating parts at a rehears at full volume, loud noodling while other members are talking to hash something out, or telegraphing the tune by practicing the intro or the tune at the gig just before you play it. All are awful. :sick:
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E.g. I say "Intro is four bars. Pickup is on the and of three in the fourth measure and then it's an eight measure form." And someone says "You and your measures and ands. No one gets that crap."
That attitude winds me up as well. If I say "the stops are on one, and-of-four, three, four" it's to make sure all musicians have the same understanding. Throw that back in my face with your attitude, and you're telling me you don't want to understand, and you don't want to make sure the band all get it.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

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I think it's a combination of the Dunning-Kruger effect (overstating one's competence) and an almost criminal inability to listen to one's own playing critically.

 

I witnessed this recently when someone played over the vocal (!) -- bad enough -- but wasn't even remotely in the pocket.

 

When in doubt, lay out. When I feel like my playing is off the rails and/or not serving the tune, I reflexively pull back on the expression pedal.

 

-- pj

 

P.S. This is one of my pet peeves.

 

 

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When you"ve got a high-performance dog on a leash, you"ve got to let him off for a run occasionally. But if he can"t or won"t learn to come back to the pack when he"s called, he doesn"t get to play with you anymore.

“True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.”
― Kurt Vonnegut

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Interestingly I have observed that it"s often keyboard/piano players who suffer from the affliction noted by OP. When I"m out watching a live band my initial delight that they have a keys player is often tempered by my fervent hope that they don"t feel the need to play all over the top of everything.

 

I see this a lot with cover/tribute acts where stuff just gets added that wasn"t in the original. I can only assume the rationale is 'I brought all my gear so I"m gonna play, dammit!'

 

Of course adding keys parts can sometimes really enhance a song. But not when you"re just adding to the sonic mush by driving your Ferrari down the main street without care for other traffic, pedestrians or traffic signals.

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E.g. I say "Intro is four bars. Pickup is on the and of three in the fourth measure and then it's an eight measure form." And someone says "You and your measures and ands. No one gets that crap."
That attitude winds me up as well. If I say "the stops are on one, and-of-four, three, four" it's to make sure all musicians have the same understanding. Throw that back in my face with your attitude, and you're telling me you don't want to understand, and you don't want to make sure the band all get it.

 

Cheers, Mike.

In some musical styles, like blues and rock, it"s common for the keyboard player to have much more formal musical training than , say the drummer, bassist, and guitarist. But those musical styles tend to be created, and passed down without notation, counting beats or measures, or even defining a key.

 

So when the keyboard player uses 'educated" terms, to them it can be perceived as a put down. Irving Berlin, Count Basie and Paul McCartney. None read music. I wouldn"t put myself in their league.

 

This is a mea culpa, because in my younger days I was quite proud of what I knew and quite willing to show it. I deeply regret it. Pride and all that. Immaturity on my part.

 

My ideal would be to communicate to my teammates in terminology they understand and relate to. I don"t always succeed.

 

Just to keep things in perspective, I sub for some local big bands. For these gigs all the musicianship I can muster (and fake) is required. But this is a different, not necessarily superior, world.

 

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I'm dealing with this right now with our drummer. There are times where he cannot count to 4, has no sense of tempo, will make remarks on mike at the most inopportune times, fills in the wrong place, I could go on.

 

Last gig, we played "Does Anybody Know What Time it Is" by Chicago. Not the simplest of songs. It has the 6 measures of 5/4, followed by 2 of 3/4, then 2 of 4/4, then it's into the song. He has yet to get it right. Then, as I am playing the trumpet solo at the beginning, He yells out on mike to some people in the crowd, blowing my concentration completely.

 

He obviously does not pay attention.

 

This is a guy that we rehearsed "Black Magic Woman" for hours, and he still could not get it.

 

When we play "New York State of Mind", I cringe every time we get to the end of the verses, because I never know if it's going to be a train wreck.

 

He's a great guy, a good friend, and he busts his a$$ booking the band. He just cannot play to the required level.

 

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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E.g. I say "Intro is four bars. Pickup is on the and of three in the fourth measure and then it's an eight measure form." And someone says "You and your measures and ands. No one gets that crap."
That attitude winds me up as well. If I say "the stops are on one, and-of-four, three, four" it's to make sure all musicians have the same understanding. Throw that back in my face with your attitude, and you're telling me you don't want to understand, and you don't want to make sure the band all get it.

 

Cheers, Mike.

In some musical styles, like blues and rock, it"s common for the keyboard player to have much more formal musical training than , say the drummer, bassist, and guitarist. But those musical styles tend to be created, and passed down without notation, counting beats or measures, or even defining a key.

 

So when the keyboard player uses 'educated" terms, to them it can be perceived as a put down. Irving Berlin, Count Basie and Paul McCartney. None read music. I wouldn"t put myself in their league.

 

This is a mea culpa, because in my younger days I was quite proud of what I knew and quite willing to show it. I deeply regret it. Pride and all that. Immaturity on my part.

 

My ideal would be to communicate to my teammates in terminology they understand and relate to. I don"t always succeed.

The drummer in my main band probably has the most formal musical training. I think the rest of us got most of our musical training on the job (gigging). But everyone in the band, and the other musos that I've played with in other bands, all understand what a bar is and how to count, and what it means when someone says to start the lick on the and of 3 or 4, or it's a 16 bar blues, or the bridge is 8 bars, or whatever. If a musician can't understand that, then it's time to either teach them â so you can communicate musical ideas going forward â or replace them with someone who does understand. If someone said to me "You and your measures and ands. No one gets that crap" I would say either you learn that crap so you can correctly play your part or one of us is leaving.

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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It"s amazing to me on how many musicians have no awareness of where they are when performing. I feel like with some people they don"t have any idea of where they are in a song or what their role is. Sometimes it"s good players technically that just can"t seem to fit into an ensemble situation. One group I sit in has this problem with one member who overplays. The other night I didn"t play two of my solos because this guy just wasn"t paying attention to anything. I guess I don"t get it, there must be some kind of disconnect somewhere. I am not talking about just keyboard players either. I see this everywhere I go, even bands that are popular or have high levels of musicianship will have one member that kills it for everyone else. I am not sure how rampant this is but I see it in this region all the time in three different cities I play in.

 

Could be off nites, ADD, ADHD or lack of interest. Or lack of sleep.

 

Playing the same part 100's of times in less than a year might be not be very exciting. Or the cover song doesn't connect with the 1 musician.

 

Guessing a list of 20 reasons that might fit the 1 night or more.

 

No hard accurate answers just kicking it around.

 

 

 

Greg I think it's some inherent lack of self-awareness more thank lack of interest or sleep. This past Sat night everyone was fresh so it wasn't that. Every time I was about to take a solo I'd look over and this guy has his heads in the cloud and kept playing.

 

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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Interestingly I have observed that it"s often keyboard/piano players who suffer from the affliction noted by OP. When I"m out watching a live band my initial delight that they have a keys player is often tempered by my fervent hope that they don"t feel the need to play all over the top of everything.

 

I see this a lot with cover/tribute acts where stuff just gets added that wasn"t in the original. I can only assume the rationale is 'I brought all my gear so I"m gonna play, dammit!'

 

Of course adding keys parts can sometimes really enhance a song. But not when you"re just adding to the sonic mush by driving your Ferrari down the main street without care for other traffic, pedestrians or traffic signals.

 

 

I've had this happen to bands I've been in (which are amateur, should be said), and been a contributor to it--what happens is, especially when monitoring is not the best, you feel the need to fill things up.

 

I've found recording the band can really help out with this...you can hear objectively how it's too busy since hopefully the recording is presenting everyone. I've changed patches and parts after hearing recordings of songs, and this after playing those tunes hundreds of times....

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In one of the bands I gig with, there is one player (let's call him "Greg, the Bass Player") who, despite repeated directions NOT to, sings my harmonies but one octave lower.

This may work on "Fat Bottom Girls", but does not work on "Lights", or virtually anything else. For some reason, this just takes all the heart right out of me and I stop singing my part because I don't want to be a part of such musical douchebaggery.

 

Second thing that "Greg" does: when I play and sing "Feelin' Alright" (Joe Cocker version) he sings my melody lines on the chorus. Then, at the end which I prefer to do as a piano break as in the intro, he views that as his time to do some wild free-form bass calisthenics, completely covering anything I'm playing.

 

Completely. Clueless.

Muzikteechur is Lonnie, in Kittery, Maine.

 

HS music teacher: Concert Band, Marching Band, Jazz Band, Chorus, Music Theory, AP Music Theory, History of Rock, Musical Theatre, Piano, Guitar, Drama.

 

 

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I've gotten positive results by setting up a recorder (I use a Tascam DR40) out in the room somewhere. A small Gorilla Pod can allow placement in a safe spot sometimes, a must have accessory.

I'll quietly set it up, turn it on and let it record the entire evening.

Then I will drop the track into a DAW and edit out the breaks.

Give everybody a copy, say nothing. Just "here is a recording of the gig last week."

 

If nothing changes after 3 of these recordings it is time to consider changing personnel, which may include giving notice and finding something else to do.

You will find yourself changing things that made you cringe, this is progress too.

 

The recording removes the "ego factor", it simply tells the truth - good, bad and ugly.

The recording removes the "ego factor", it simply tells the truth - good, bad and ugly.

 

I do the same. Firstly because I want to listen to what I was doing and work on the rough spots, etc. People seem to fall into two categories: those who thank me for the recordings and those who never listen to them :-)

 

-Z-

 

I've found recording the band can really help out with this...you can hear objectively how it's too busy since hopefully the recording is presenting everyone. ....

My friend records all the gigs for his band and listens to them so he can figure out what needs work and so forth. He sends the recordings to the rest of the band. The problem is that none of the other band members listen to them. Zalman said it: "People seem to fall into two categories: those who thank me for the recordings and those who never listen to them." If the band won't listen, whatcha gon' do? My friend's band finally broke up over this and other issues. But the "other issues" were all being heard in the recordings. If people don't want to change, they won't.

 

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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when the keyboard player uses 'educated" terms, to them it can be perceived as a put down. Irving Berlin, Count Basie and Paul McCartney. None read music. I wouldn"t put myself in their league.[...]My ideal would be to communicate to my teammates in terminology they understand and relate to. I don"t always succeed.
Don't get me wrong, I've got no problem if they don't understand the terms I'm using. My problem is with their attitude, as if I'm making too much effort to make the band sound tight and good.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

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Second thing that "Greg" does: when I play and sing "Feelin' Alright" (Joe Cocker version) he sings my melody lines on the chorus. Then, at the end which I prefer to do as a piano break as in the intro, he views that as his time to do some wild free-form bass calisthenics, completely covering anything I'm playing.

 

Completely. Clueless.

 

I've had to flat out tell our drummer, several times, DO NOT PLAY DURING THE INTRO/FIRST VERSE AND THE BREAK IN FEELIN' ALRIGHT!!!

 

I do the intro and the first verse on my own, and if he tries to play along, he will ALWAYS get the tempo incorrect. He cannot figure out the syncopation. It's tough enough to play and sing without the extra crap. Add his off tempo hi-hat hits, makes it intolerable.

 

I play an extended piano solo after the second verse/chorus, then break it down to lead into the guitar solo. Just like "Greg" the bass player, he would try to play through the break.

 

Drives.

Me,

Nuts.

 

 

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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Jaco Pastorious had a great term for players who don't get it.

 

Groove Killers.

 

Unfortunately that term means different things to different people.

 

Some people THINK that they know what being totally tasteful is all about. But there is no one person that is or ever can be the ultimate judge.

 

I listened ( for the first time in a long time) to the Miles Davis recording of LIVE / EVIL from 1970. Now you could say, or a case could be made that these players ( Keith Jarrett, Jack De Johnette, Airto, Gary Bartz , John McLaughlin ) lack " taste".

 

I can imagine some people hate this music, but in another sense I respect this recording because of how much these players pushed the edge. And that seems to be missing from a lot of music these days.

 

It's hard to believe that the Live/ Evil recording is almost 50 years old now

 

When I listened to it the other night for some reason it held my interest. Particularly because of the energy of DeJohnette, and because of Miles Davis. Keith Jarrett and Gary Bartz as soloists.

 

It's th

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This reminds me of life in most working situations. How do you deal with less-than-competent people?

 

Music (and most forms of work) rely on competent people coming together around a shared goal. And that's where the fun starts.

 

In my work life, I've been a reasonably competent guy for oh-so-many years. It's been good.

 

Not so with live music. I started relatively incompetent, but learned competence over time. Why? Because it mattered to me. If you care about something, you work to get better at it. People understood where I was coming from, for the most part. And they were patient. And now I'm pretty good.

 

My armchair diagnosis here is that you're meeting people who don't give a s*** about getting better. Anyone who cares about getting better is not a problem, for the most part.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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Ears are the last thing to develop for a musician, IMHO.

 

The old saying is you spend the first 10 years learning what to play, and the next 10 years learning what not to play.

 

When I run into the situation you describe (which can be frequent, depending where I'm playing), I try to remember my first 10 years.

..
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Some people just don't "grow up" musically and never learn to be team players. It took me a long time to learn to hold back most of the time, respect the groove, and pick the appropriate places for cool fills/licks. A band is only as good as its weakest link.

'57 Hammond B-3, '60 Hammond A100, Leslie 251, Leslie 330, Leslie 770, Leslie 145, Hammond PR-40

Trek II UC-1A

Alesis QSR

 

 

 

 

 

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