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One sound guy's perspective on keys


3rdAct

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Agree that guy is not competent, and your band should agree not to work with him anymore AS A SIGN OF RESPECT TO YOU, and your contribution to the band.

 

Also agree he's not alone, and the music biz is filled with bad amateurs who have "thought" themselves into incompetency by starting with a half-truth concept...rather than starting with their ears. Lots of us have done this to one degree or another ("This ought to work great because of this reason..."), only to discover our reasoning was flawed and the end result doesn't sound good.

 

The answer is always the same: use your ears.

 

Tragic and frustrating when a sound guy is defensive, protective, unreasonable and WRONG.

..
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Yeah, he"s not the overlord of what is right in music mixes. He"s supposed reinforce, not edit the band.

 

It"s amazing how often I prefer set and forget over the random sound guy. I had two gigs with two random sound teams this weekend. The first one was a bit wanting overall, but I had no complaints about my mix, no problems hearing myself with any patches. The second gig, at one of the larger clubs in town, clearly had not worked with keys a lot , couldn"t hear my Clav patches in my monitor at all, EP"s we"re a bit better, Organ and Piano were fine.

 

Always such a crap shoot, but with a repeat offender in your case, something needs to change!

Steinway L, Yamaha Motif XS-8, NE3 73, Casio PX-5S, iPad, EV ZLX 12-P ZZ(x2), bunch of PA stuff.
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Have him listen to a Toto concert, or Journey, or Styx, or Rush, Kansas, Genesis, or Dream Theater. Prominent guitar, but keys are absolutely equal. Time for a new sound engineer.

Voyager, A Tribute to the Music of Journey - http:// www.facebook.com/voyageraz

Keys: Korg KronosX 88, M Audio Code 61, Novation Launchkey, Mainstage, Keyscape, Omnisphere

 

 

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Sunday, I had one of my Mackie Thumps on stage, because I will be heard.

Solution chosen was to carry my two JBL EON15 powered speakers (300 watt LF, 100 watt HF), connect them with my own little mixer, pair of DI's so FOH can still get a feed if they choose to use it, and crank the EONs to the point I can be heard, but still not overly loud for balance.
This is what I was saying. If FOH sound won't put you high enough in the mix, bring your own sound and crank it.

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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I mentioned about the church gig, and the sound issue. In his defense, he's new, just learning. The main sound person was playing guitar that weekend, and could not do FOH. He and I have talked, and when he's behind the board, the keys are balanced properly in the mix.

 

We're trying to go back to the time of small amps on stage, to make ti seem "More Dynamic" He feels that the in ear system we have where everything is FOH, and the players hear through the in ear monitors, is "Sterile"

 

I hope we get it fixed soon. Until then, I'm going with my Mackie Thump on stage so I can hear myself.

 

I can go with overkill. I have a pair of the Mackie Thumps AND a QSC K10 that I can use if needed.

 

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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Guy needs to be knocked out.

 

Although I'm something of a peacenik I must say Outcaster's solution has its merits. Fire this jackass soundman. If necessary maybe give the band a choice between you and him. No matter how it turns out you'll come out ahead. I feel your pain. Enough's enough. Good luck.

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I am kidding really. I just don't have tolerance for guys like that. Luckily I don't really run into them. Keys players get pushed around more than anyone.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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We could start a sticky "How to train your soundman".

I've given up on expecting to be heard in the churches I play mostly because they're volunteers. Although one of the offenders is a guy who used to tour with a national act and run sound. What's worse is that a lot of churches now stream the whole service to facebook and the mix that was set up for the room just sounds horrible on FB. Even last Sunday the pastor asked us to share the sevice to our friends and I just couldn't. Nothing I played made it to the stream. ~BOB

I'm practicing so that people can maybe go "wow" at an imaginary gig I'll never play. -Nadroj
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I feel your pain, or at least I used to. We are now working with two different sound people who actually *like* the way the keys sound in the mix, and push them up to reasonable levels. Then again, it's my responsibility to sound good, keep levels under control, etc.

 

Prior to that, my working assumption with sound people was "hope for the best, prepare for the worst". This entailed me bringing substantial stage amplification, and putting it to work if the sound person was anti-keys. I did this with the full blessing of the band. One guy even complained at the end of a second set that I was making it hard for him to mix everything as he wanted. I was not sympathetic.

 

Finding a better sound person (or educating the one you have) may not be an option. Bringing a few thousand watts of stage sound can help in those circumstances.

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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My guitarist mixes, and he's notorious for keeping keys pretty low in the mix. And he also complains at the same time that I'm too dynamic and too loud, which is infuriating. It used to be a constant struggle. I notice that he doesn't mind if leads are super hot, he just really doesn't want to hear anything else (comping, counter melodies, etc). So now I set my levels at the beginning of the night and then throw the faders way up for leads, because I know he's practically turned me off. I know I'm not gonna win this one, but I've figured out a decent middle ground. I feel like a total ass when I come out wailing on the keytar and people say, "hey, that looked cool but I can't hear you".

Puck Funk! :)

 

Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat?

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Sunday, I had one of my Mackie Thumps on stage, because I will be heard.

Solution chosen was to carry my two JBL EON15 powered speakers (300 watt LF, 100 watt HF), connect them with my own little mixer, pair of DI's so FOH can still get a feed if they choose to use it, and crank the EONs to the point I can be heard, but still not overly loud for balance.
This is what I was saying. If FOH sound won't put you high enough in the mix, bring your own sound and crank it.

I think the above is a recipe for volume wars. It's tough enough for me to mix the sanctuary around a slightly-too-loud acoustic drum set; add another competing too-loud instrument, and I as a sound man am screwed, as are the people in the congregation who didn't come to hear any particular instrument.

-Tom Williams

{First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com

PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361

 

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I have a question... I play in a worship at my church. My keyboards are almost non existent out front according to the congregation.

 

I run my keyboards directly to the board and have a monitor return with whatever mix I ask for. Currently I have my keys mixed louder in my monitor so I can hear them over the vocals, drums and two electric guitars with on stage amps. To compensate for the low levels out front, I have asked the sound man to instead, send the same mix the FOH has, so I can set my levels to what I think they should be in the full mix. Sound man says that won't work because the monitor doesn't have the frequency range the FOH speakers have, and if I set my levels to that mix they will be too loud...

 

Is he right?

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I have a question... I play in a worship at my church. My keyboards are almost non existent out front according to the congregation.

 

I run my keyboards directly to the board and have a monitor return with whatever mix I ask for. Currently I have my keys mixed louder in my monitor so I can hear them over the vocals, drums and two electric guitars with on stage amps. To compensate for the low levels out front, I have asked the sound man to instead, send the same mix the FOH has, so I can set my levels to what I think they should be in the full mix. Sound man says that won't work because the monitor doesn't have the frequency range the FOH speakers have, and if I set my levels to that mix they will be too loud...

 

Is he right?

 

Yes he is right.

 

I don't play worship but I always pack my own stage monitor.

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He"s half right. Most stage monitors have the bass carved out, nothing above 10K, and a bunch of notches in the graph to compensate for room modes.

 

You could ask for a post-fader mix and try to set your levels to the vocals, but that won"t work. You"ll either be too loud or play insufficient dynamic range etc.

 

The key is that mixing is a team sport. It starts with a good stage blend that lets each performer play their best. Then one person worries about the overall blend out front. If that person refuses to do a good job, there is nothing you can do but fire him.

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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Sunday, I had one of my Mackie Thumps on stage, because I will be heard.

Solution chosen was to carry my two JBL EON15 powered speakers (300 watt LF, 100 watt HF), connect them with my own little mixer, pair of DI's so FOH can still get a feed if they choose to use it, and crank the EONs to the point I can be heard, but still not overly loud for balance.
This is what I was saying. If FOH sound won't put you high enough in the mix, bring your own sound and crank it.

I think the above is a recipe for volume wars. It's tough enough for me to mix the sanctuary around a slightly-too-loud acoustic drum set; add another competing too-loud instrument, and I as a sound man am screwed, as are the people in the congregation who didn't come to hear any particular instrument.

 

Funny thing happened when I first started using a Spacestation V.3 (slanted up at me) at a smaller gig - no soundman and stage amps only. The sound "bloomed" out front, about 25 feet in front of the stage. Stage volume was perfect, while a couple of folks out front thought the keys were "too loud." Our guitar player played about 20-25 feet out for a bit to check the mix. He said it was just right. The band was collaborative fusion type project. Point being he knew what the band was supposed to sound like. And... the Spacestation was born for this.

 

The best experiences I've had with FOH techs has been after a few repeat gigs, ie a regular Casino gig with a disco band. "Keys" in that case were lots of strings/piano mixes and they have to be up, and of course they were. If keys in some tunes were pianos or organs, once the tech understood what we were trying to achieve, he made it happen.

 

Any good sound tech with ears and an open mind should get it eventually. The reasoning spouted to the OP is mixing for the masses: lazy, passive-aggressive horseshit.

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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I suppose he also puts the Lead Guitar in the balanced MIX similar to the keys? Does he turn down the keys during solos too? I've had this happen to me as well; then the bastards turn up my monitor so it sounds like I'm hot, then turn me down in the mains so I disappear. Then I have the band tell me I'm too hot in the Mix!! WTF? You can't win.
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I have a question... I play in a worship at my church. My keyboards are almost non existent out front according to the congregation.

 

I run my keyboards directly to the board and have a monitor return with whatever mix I ask for. Currently I have my keys mixed louder in my monitor so I can hear them over the vocals, drums and two electric guitars with on stage amps. To compensate for the low levels out front, I have asked the sound man to instead, send the same mix the FOH has, so I can set my levels to what I think they should be in the full mix. Sound man says that won't work because the monitor doesn't have the frequency range the FOH speakers have, and if I set my levels to that mix they will be too loud...

 

Is he right?

It depends on how your monitor. If you've got dedicated monitors on the ground, they face an uphill battle, the contact with the floor increases the bass, and the fact that it has to reach to you from a distance also makes a difference.

 

There are many different ways of monitoring yourself, including the SpaceStation, which runs counter to common usage. Also, many people use full range speakers (which almost everyone on this forum uses, guitar players discovered their value some years ago) that are mounted on short speaker stands, in which case they're no different than the FRFR (full range, flat response) speakers being used out front (except for the fact that they probably are different, but not a 'monitor speaker' per se that has an eq built into it for that purpose). I try to get my monitors as close to me as possible, esp as I like to hear myself at full volume. IEM's are the same principle, except they're REALLY close.

 

Numa Piano X73 /// Kawai ES920 /// Casio CT-X5000 /// Yamaha EW425

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QSC K8.2 // JBL Eon One Compact // Soundcore Motion Boom Plus 

Win10 laptop i7 8GB // iPad Pro 9.7" 32GB

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Sunday, I had one of my Mackie Thumps on stage, because I will be heard.

Solution chosen was to carry my two JBL EON15 powered speakers (300 watt LF, 100 watt HF), connect them with my own little mixer, pair of DI's so FOH can still get a feed if they choose to use it, and crank the EONs to the point I can be heard, but still not overly loud for balance.
This is what I was saying. If FOH sound won't put you high enough in the mix, bring your own sound and crank it.

I think the above is a recipe for volume wars. It's tough enough for me to mix the sanctuary around a slightly-too-loud acoustic drum set; add another competing too-loud instrument, and I as a sound man am screwed, as are the people in the congregation who didn't come to hear any particular instrument.

 

I can see where that can become a recipe for volume wars. But, I placed the Thump on a short stand, and pointed it right at my head.

 

We use a system where everyone can set their own monitor mix. I ran out of that to the Thump instead of a headset, so I could get the others instruments and the vocals. By running it like that, I was able to hear fine without being too loud. That's the same trick that I use at my regular gig, so the guitar player and I, who are right next to each other, do not get into volume wars.

 

But, I will ALWAYS have some form of amplification with me. For me, the initial sign of a questionable sound man is one that tells me I don't need an amp, just run them direct.

 

Ummm, do you ask this of a guitar player? No, Then don't ask it of me.

 

I very much prefer to be right in the pocket in the mix, but I WILL be heard. If the sound man can get that done, great. If not, I will.

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the comments (and support!). Currently, many things are on the table for us. Get a new person.... Mix the band ourselves and send him the mix.... Hire a real sound guy and a separate company that brings equipment... etc. We're still working through it. Fortunately, all the band members are on the same page.

 

Our current guy is reliable, has decent equipment, is always set up on time, and so on.... He's not cheap, but not the most expensive we've come across (and can't afford). The problem is that he cannot do sound! Worse -- he thinks he's great and won't take input! There are other problems with his sound too (besides what I initially described) -- I just had to share his "reasoning" regarding keys in the mix because ... it needed to be shared!

 

Our bandleader is going to see if he can improve the situation overall. Hopefully he will be successful. If not, we'll be going with a better option.

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I have a question... I play in a worship at my church. My keyboards are almost non existent out front according to the congregation.

 

I run my keyboards directly to the board and have a monitor return with whatever mix I ask for. Currently I have my keys mixed louder in my monitor so I can hear them over the vocals, drums and two electric guitars with on stage amps. To compensate for the low levels out front, I have asked the sound man to instead, send the same mix the FOH has, so I can set my levels to what I think they should be in the full mix. Sound man says that won't work because the monitor doesn't have the frequency range the FOH speakers have, and if I set my levels to that mix they will be too loud...

 

Is he right?

I would have to say that he's right â but the reason he gives is not very relevant, even if there's truth in it. Hearing the FOH mix in a player's monitor makes no sense to me. A monitor mix should ideally be the balance of instruments that makes the player hearing that mix the most comfortable in doing the job they're there to do. I like to lock in with the kick & snare when I comp, so I ask our monitor person for more k & s. My monitor mix is only for me; it most certainly wouldn't work for FOH. I know I'm stating the obvious but that's why we have monitor mixes, so you can listen the way you want without worrying about affecting anybody else's mix or the FOH mix. It's the sound person's job to make a good FOH mix, not yours. I know it sucks when that person mixes you way lower than you think you should. I've felt that way a few times when I heard an audience recording of a gig I'm on. My attitude is simple: if a band wants to pay me to play for them but then be barely audible in the FOH mix, that's on them. All I want to know is that 1) the bandleader is happy with my work and 2) my fellow players are happy with my work, (and #3: the check clears!).

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I have resigned that I cannot ultimately control what the FOH does, especially when the sound person works for the venue and/or a festival. The best I can do is convey our band"s vision.

 

My efforts have to be focused on what I hear, what my band mates hear, and that all of this is consistent with emerging best practices, which IMHO is less, not more, stage volume.

 

My path has been Mackie 450s, to Traynor K4, to excellent JBL srx712s as a pair, and finally to expensive IEMs. Only with the IEMs have the old battles ended on stage. Everyone on stage gets the mix they want. We all play with more recognition of what the other players are doing, and I think this does prompt many FOH guys to mix to our ensemble vision. (except for the occasional person as reported by the OP).

 

Given my prior experience of un-winnable volume wars, I just don"t think that throwing increasingly loud keyboard monitoring on stage is going to be a winning strategy, even if that strategy has the laudable aim of making sure the keys are heard in the audience. Band mates will complain about keys volume, and the guitar player will just turn up to 12.

 

Just my opinion. Now back to rehearsal (without any ringing in my ears).

Barry

 

Home: Steinway L, Montage 8

 

Gigs: Yamaha CP88, Crumar Mojo 61, A&H SQ5 mixer, ME1 IEM, MiPro 909 IEMs

 

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[ I placed the Thump on a short stand, and pointed it right at my head.

 

We use a system where everyone can set their own monitor mix. I ran out of that to the Thump instead of a headset, so I could get the others instruments and the vocals. By running it like that, I was able to hear fine without being too loud. That's the same trick that I use at my regular gig, so the guitar player and I, who are right next to each other, do not get into volume wars.

 

But, I will ALWAYS have some form of amplification with me. For me, the initial sign of a questionable sound man is one that tells me I don't need an amp, just run them direct.

 

Ummm, do you ask this of a guitar player? No, Then don't ask it of me.

 

I very much prefer to be right in the pocket in the mix, but I WILL be heard. If the sound man can get that done, great. If not, I will.

+!. I recently played a show with a competent sound man. He asked me to place my 2 QSC's in front of my keyboard facing back at me. He did not want any of the sound from the speakers bleeding into his house mix. This worked out fine. The sound guy was happy and I could hear myself fine, as loud as I want to be.

 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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We are doing our own sound without any sound engineer. We have digital Yamaha desk for FOH and in ear. Works great for rehearsing and live with our own FOH. For big events with rented FOH, we use to give all signals to an unknown sounds engineer.

Never had any complaints with our own mix, had many complaints with external sound engineers.

Now we only supply a stereo pair to external FOH.

We do a short sound-check for coloring the sound

I have that mix on my ear, so will notice any strange volume changes.

 

We are all disciplined and add some gain during solos and remove it afterwards.

 

Works great!

Nord Piano 5-73, Nord Stage 3
Author of QSheets: The fastest lead sheet viewer in the world that also plays Audio Files and send Program Changes!
https://qsheets.eriknie.synology.me/

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