Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

One sound guy's perspective on keys


3rdAct

Recommended Posts

We work with this sound guy and get along with him pretty well. But he always makes the keys inaudible in the mix. (We know because we record the shows.) I"ve asked him if he could bring them up. Even some of my bandmates have asked him. A couple of people at shows have told me, 'I see you playing (e.g., the piano parts in Roadhouse Blues), but don"t hear anything.'

 

So I finally asked him why he doesn"t make the keys audible in the mix. His response basically boils down to this: if you can distinctly hear the keys, that means their level is higher than that of everything else, and thus too loud. Instead, he insisted, the keys have to be 'balanced' in the mix, which means they should not be heard 'above' everything else, so you won't hear them distinctly. :freak::pop: (Of course, I pointed out things like: when the keys can be heard, everything else could still be heard too, but to no avail.)

 

This is one sound guy"s take â perhaps some other sound guys also think this, given how often keys are mixed out, even at pro shows.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Replies 95
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

I"ve often thought that the words 'facetious' and 'feces' had the same origins. After looking it up, it appears I"m mistaken. So instead of saying something facetious, I"ll just say, 'horseshit.'

 

 

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Moron. Probably also thinks the moon landings were faked.

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that your sound tech has many bretheren. Everything in music begins with CONCEPT, not technique. It is likely that he does not listen to the same music that inspires you and does not share your concept of "good" music. Can you find common ground? e.g. Refer to Deep Purple or some other act that has a more up front keyboard sound?

At least you can let this experience inform your future decisions if you fire this guy and conduct interviews for his replacement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe you could play him a recording of his mix of Roadhouse Blues, and the Doors original, and ask if he hears the difference in how prominent the piano is... and point out that the clearly audible piano does not detract from being able to also hear the lead vocal/harmonica, the guitar, the drums, the bass...

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of his brethren obviously mixed Bill Payne and the Doobies the night I saw them a few years back. What a waste. But there was plenty of distorted (in a bad way) guitar.

Barry

 

Home: Steinway L, Montage 8

 

Gigs: Yamaha CP88, Crumar Mojo 61, A&H SQ5 mixer, ME1 IEM, MiPro 909 IEMs

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have found this is more the norm than the exception. Sound guys see keys or hear keys as more of a background padding than being up front. I have worked with dozens of sound people. And far more often than not, the keys are very low in the mix. I believe a lot has to do with the blazing guitar amps coming off stage and drums soaking up the majority of the mix. I use no stage amp, I go directly into FOH. So literally anybody standing within 50 feet of the stage hear zero keys. I've sort of resigned myself to the fact that if anybody really wants to hear me playing, they have to listen very closely and far back from the stage.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fire him. Just. Fire. Him.

 

Dr. Mike Metlay (PhD in nuclear physics, golly gosh) :D

Musician, Author, Editor, Educator, Impresario, Online Radio Guy, Cut-Rate Polymath, and Kindly Pedant

Editor-in-Chief, Bjooks ~ Author of SYNTH GEMS 1

 

clicky!:  more about me ~ my radio station (and my fam) ~ my local tribe ~ my day job ~ my bookmy music

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that your sound tech has many bretheren. Everything in music begins with CONCEPT, not technique. It is likely that he does not listen to the same music that inspires you and does not share your concept of "good" music. Can you find common ground? e.g. Refer to Deep Purple or some other act that has a more up front keyboard sound?
Maybe you could play him a recording of his mix of Roadhouse Blues, and the Doors original, and ask if he hears the difference in how prominent the piano is... and point out that the clearly audible piano does not detract from being able to also hear the lead vocal/harmonica, the guitar, the drums, the bass...
I tried going in this direction, but all I got was some variant of, "so have you ever run sound?" Clearly not looking for any feedback....

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems pretty clear that he's not open to your comments or feedback and will not change on his own. Do you have your own monitor on stage? If not, get one. If you do, crank it up as loud as you can so at least you and your band members can hear you, as well as the audience near the stage. If your sound guy has a problem with this, tell him either he puts you up higher in the FOH mix or you'll get another sound man.

 

He works for you. Many musos think of the sound man as a member of the band. If a member of the band won't do what the other band members want, usually the band lets that person go. He's not in charge. If he thinks he is, he needs to be told that he's not. He's there to do what the band wants.

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A real sound engineer understands the importance of a good mix for all instruments, especially in a live context. So if you're still wondering why your current engineer isn't mixing properly for you, keyboards or otherwise, it's time for a change. There are good mixers out there; find them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I started doing a bit of sound on the side and with my bias towards keys come to the rescue of all keys players that I come across. And universally everyone loves it.

 

First, I look at sound as I would look at light. Long story. Second, I look at levels as positioning and everybody gets a chance to be 'out front'. Yes, even the guitar players. And then everybody absolutely must settle in for the ride. A good sweet spot mix where EVERYONE can be heard is to die for.

 

Lastly, we as keysmen can be lethal to the sound guys, especially those of us with volume pedals. Then there"s our frequency range which can stomp on everything from bass to brass. And we get more and more dangerous as our tech is advancing faster than any others.

 

Get yourself a good sound guy/gal and treat them well and hopefully they"ll return the favor.

 

Oh, and remember, there"s two types of sound guys/gals: those that setup a mix and then go off to chat, smoke, or drink... and those that know how to 'ride' levels. If you end up with the former then it"s up to you and your pedal/pots/faders to find your spot. If the latter, try to talk him/her into 'positioning'.

 

For me, at the end of the day, while it"s not revenge, it"s one of the more gratifying work experiences that I get to enjoy.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As someone who used to do sound a lot mixing for clubs and concerts, I'd say most the sound guys I hear today suck. Either they think they are mixing a record and not live sound, or they got hired because they are cheap (big problem where I live). I really hate the sound companies that no matter what type of show they have a line of subwoofers cranked to where that's mainly what you hear. Or they over power a room, the sound is suppose to sound like its coming from the band on the stage, not your system. The real name for the job is "sound reinforcement" in other words make sure everything can be heard and a good balance thru out the venue seating area. Last if the band, their manager or sound person wants the mix a certain way give it to them, when they are onstage even if the opening act it's their show for that set.

 

That last bit on if the band wants it give it to them happen on a show I worked. ZZ Top was still fairly new and were opening for Doobie Brothers. ZZ Top's manager/producer shows up right as sound check was to start he hasn't heard the PA at all, but he start barking out EQ settings. We politely tell him you haven't heard the PA and we've worked this venue many times and know the room. He starts getting mad and starts backing EQ's settings again, again we say listen to the system we'll get you a mix up and you can tweak it from there however you like. Now he is going crazy yelling so we just say F-it and do what he says. ZZ Top sound was horrible that night and the guy didn't want to admit his settings were crap. The Doobies sounded great they were very happy and reviews said how good their sound was. So even if it going to suck, do what the band or their manager wants.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lastly, we as keysmen can be lethal to the sound guys, especially those of us with volume pedals. Then there"s our frequency range which can stomp on everything from bass to brass. And we get more and more dangerous as our tech is advancing faster than any others.

I want to emphasize that. I'm still clueless about how to set the volumes for my patches: at home I tweak it so that it sounds perfectly like the record and then at rehearsal nothing works like I imagined. Then at the venue nothing sounds like it did at rehearsal.

 

Life is subtractive.
Genres: Jazz, funk, pop, Christian worship, BebHop
Wishlist: 80s-ish (synth)pop, symph pop, prog rock, fusion, musical theatre
Gear: NS2 + JUNO-G. KingKORG. SP6 at church.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, self-centered sound dudes. I got tired of the same issues at this popular outdoor venue. I asked the soundman, during a break, why is he mixing my level to the point of inaudibility with the crowd. He told me this. I don't like keyboards that "get in the way"; rock is about guitars & drums. So, for the next set I turned my volume completely off and mimed it for one song (band mates indulged me).

After that he comes on stage and told me to bring up my volume cause he can't hear me. I told him neither can the audience, so he better make sure they hear me from now on. And, he made the adjustment! My ploy worked and the crowd could now hear me for the rest of the night.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lastly, we as keysmen can be lethal to the sound guys, especially those of us with volume pedals. Then there"s our frequency range which can stomp on everything from bass to brass. And we get more and more dangerous as our tech is advancing faster than any others.

 

THIS is a major problem.

 

When I started out in a cover band and did sound design for all the songs, I worked very closely with the sound guy and asked him to keep notes for me whenever he noticed something off and had time to write it down.

 

The epiphany was his explanation that most sound guys are used to dealing with crappy bands day-in, day-out, and if the keyboard player blows out his levels, he's turned down to where he is no longer annoying, and the fader isn't touched again, unless he manages to annoy again even at that level.

 

Since then, I always make it a point to talk to every sound guy and give them idea of what they're going to get, and to get an idea of what they're going to do with it.

"The Angels of Libra are in the European vanguard of the [retro soul] movement" (Bill Buckley, Soul and Jazz and Funk)

The Drawbars | off jazz organ trio

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saturday night I was in rehearsal at church. I was playing the church's MOX8, run direct

 

As I thought that I would be playing the church's grand piano, I did nit bring my headphones to hear through the in-ears, so during rehearsal, I was stuck with just hearing the FOH mix.

 

First song in rehearsal, I stopped the song, because the sound guy had brought the keys done to inaudible. This is a common problem, as my wife has consistently asked why I was even up there, as the keys could not be heard. That's why I prefer using the grand, because it can be heard even without FOH support.

 

Sunday, I had one of my Mackie Thumps on stage, because I will be heard.

 

"In the beginning, Adam had the blues, 'cause he was lonesome.

So God helped him and created woman.

 

Now everybody's got the blues."

 

Willie Dixon

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First song in rehearsal, I stopped the song, because the sound guy had brought the keys done to inaudible.

 

I've done that myself, or waited until the end of the song and told the sound guy I can't hear the keys.

 

We have a new sound guy at church who is much more cooperative. :)

 

 

 

 

 

When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ran into that also at my church gig (after a decision was made that all sound would be provided by the mixing console). Solution chosen was to carry my two JBL EON15 powered speakers (300 watt LF, 100 watt HF), connect them with my own little mixer, pair of DI's so FOH can still get a feed if they choose to use it, and crank the EONs to the point I can be heard, but still not overly loud for balance. Admittedly, we don't have a separate bass player, so a lot of what I do is provide bass. And the Leslie effect on the Hammond sounds better to me in stereo, even though the speakers are only 3 or 4 feet apart.

 

However, if it were a band hired sound person, they would be given the choice of mixing to the band's satisfaction, or being replaced. SOON. If it is venue provided, not much one can do except carry their own loud enough to be heard.

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently changed out all of my live stage gear and am very happy with the sound and clarity of this set-up. Unfortunately, our sound guy isn't worth a crap and doesn't know how to mix. Fortunately I am too old to get in a squabble with the sound guy or band leader over this issue. I'll just collect my money and keep on rolling.
Yamaha MOXF8, MOXF6, Radial Key Largo, Yamaha DXR 10's
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...