MathOfInsects Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 I kind of understand what this editor was going for in this Bach minuet, but I can't remember ever seeing this before: three staccato notes marked legato. I think he means to group the notes as a phrase. But still, staccato is that which is not legato, and vice versa, right? Phrase in question is the first two measures of the LH below. Have you ever seen this indication before? Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markyboard Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 I believe that"s a triplet marking. Edit: err...maybe not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 It means longer staccato durations, not short staccato durations... it's a bit ambiguous. Somewhere in between staccato and legato. There are many degrees possible of staccato durations in music. Often they they putt tenuto marks under staccato marks. Sometimes it's called semi- staccato or semi- detached. A very short staccato interpretation is kind of corny. "Portato (commonly referred to as Portamento) is somewhere between legato and staccato." In swing music I always play my quarter notes detached (portato). Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BbAltered Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Because all those notes are the same note, you are forced physically to play them all "detached" (staccato). You have no choice: the physics of the keyboard demand it. But I am guessing the music editor suggests each group of three is a phrase and should be made distinguishable from the other group of three. I think myself, I would cut off the third note of each group of three shorter than the others and slightly emphasis the first of the group of three to try and convey the sense that these are groups of three. Looks like fun! Quote J.S. Bach Well Tempered Klavier The collected works of Scott Joplin Ray Charles Genius plus Soul Charlie Parker Omnibook Stevie Wonder Songs in the Key of Life Weather Report Mr. Gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Play staccato but hold the pedal down. Quote Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Play staccato but hold the pedal down. That produces legato and a harmonic mess of the melody. It's never done in Bach. And Bach didn't have a sustain pedal on his harpsichord. Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Because all those notes are the same note, you are forced physically to play them all "detached" (staccato). You have no choice: the physics of the keyboard demand it. But I am guessing the music editor suggests each group of three is a phrase and should be made distinguishable from the other group of three. I don't think that's true. A pianist can play the same not repeatedly with pure legato without any pedal. Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 The BCW's section Bach's Markings and Notations, which includes the comment that dots over notes do not indicate true staccato, which Bach indicates by a wedge (or dash). In fact the dots can indicate a range of emphasis, and are not necessarily specific. A note with a dash is indicated as between legato (tied) and staccato (dot). The pattern of phrase markings/slurring and dots as you see it in your sources is absolutely according to Bach's intentions since he was, according the NBA KB I/17.2, "very precise" in marking all articulation and dynamic markings. If a quarter note is marked and played 'staccato", is it sufficient a very short stoppage of sound that reduces the value of the note only very slightly without reducing the overall tempo: How much separation is necessary to 'unglue" one note from the next so that they are not 'run together" without any separation at all is debatable. Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Play staccato but hold the pedal down. That produces legato and a harmonic mess of the melody. It's never done in Bach. And Bach didn't have a sustain pedal on his harpsichord. Good grief. Yes, I know there"s an emoji for this. Quote ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBarker Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Yeah... that's not ambiguous at all You've already got phrase slurs, dots and a standard slur. And the dots are already ambiguous due to historical interpretation. Likely, they should be played similarly to the melodic line, that would be the default interpretation without any markings. Sure enough, as soon as it stops playing repeated unisons, the markings disappear. Can't the editor just trust that a decently skilled performer will know how to play repeated notes consistently? This is over-noted, IMO... feels like hand-holding, awhile simultaneously confusing the shit out of the player. Quote Puck Funk! Equipment: Laptop running lots of nerdy software, some keyboards, noise makersâ¦yada yada yadaâ¦maybe a cat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morizzle Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 It means longer staccato durations, not short staccato durations... it's a bit ambiguous. Somewhere in between staccato and legato. There are many degrees possible of staccato durations in music. Often they they putt tenuto marks under staccato marks. Sometimes it's called semi- staccato or semi- detached. A very short staccato interpretation is kind of corny. "Portato (commonly referred to as Portamento) is somewhere between legato and staccato." This. Quote It's not a clone, it's a Suzuki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyNQ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Confident it's an error. Like when you read a published book and there's a spelling or grammatical mistake in it. It could be that there's a deeper intention in the text, or it could be that someone stuffed up. My feeling in these situations is it's usually the latter. I see a lot of sheet music that just isn't right and I couldn't possibly be Robinson Crusoe among this crowd. Regardless of my opinion, play it the way that seems right to you. If you like it, it's good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morizzle Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Yeah, or we could discuss our feelings when we see these markings, or what we think we heard some piano teacher say to another in a loud bar twenty-five years ago, or we could look up portato on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portato Quote It's not a clone, it's a Suzuki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleomenesII Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 You say "portato"...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morizzle Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Quote It's not a clone, it's a Suzuki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyNQ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Yeah, or we could discuss our feelings when we see these markings, or.... Haha! That"s quality. Sorry if I upset you with my fairly inconsequential opinions, my brother. I certainly didn"t intend to inflame such a seemingly frustrated response. I checked out Wikipedia before posting, too. I didn"t feel, based on the entry, that it was intended to apply to piano music. My rationale is based on the reference to it being a 'bowing technique...' But I HAVE seen a lot of weird (frankly, incorrect) sheet music over the years. Totally cool if that"s not your experience. Not saying I"m right either. No dramas either way - go well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 It"s not an error, I see that notation in piano scores. Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 The fun part is: I posted that while in the middle of a lesson with a student. (I had assigned a couple of small Bach pieces as targeted etudes for a particular skill we are working on.) He asked me about that marking, and I said, "I have to be honest, I am not certain I know the answer. Let me post it somewhere and see if someone knows." He said, "Oh, like a message board? I wonder how long it will take to degrade into a flame war. This should be good" And I said, "Probably two posts, but maybe someone will slip the answer in along the way." One out of two ain't bad... Jazz+, can you post some kind of reference or evidence for your claims? You've said a couple of different, slightly conflicting things about it and I am trying to sort out which path to go down. If you've seen this elsewhere in Bach, can you post an example? Or the BCW reference? Thanks. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountFosco Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Sorry if I upset you ... my fairly inconsequential opinions ... Totally cool if that"s not your experience. Not saying I"m right either. No dramas either way - go well! Could this be just about the most aussie post ever? (Also not meaning to inflame, but as an ex-pat, this is the sh!t that makes me miss home) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Porta Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Porta Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted September 28, 2019 Author Share Posted September 28, 2019 Wonderful. Thank you. So is 'portato' the official and accurate term for this? Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 I guess so Quote Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyNQ Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 Could this be just about the most aussie post ever? (Also not meaning to inflame, but as an ex-pat, this is the sh!t that makes me miss home) Well my friend, far too much dickheadery goes on in Internet forums and comments sections generally. As a general rule this place is pretty easy going, which is great. Regardless, I love a bit of humour but upsetting people from behind a (computer) keyboard is a pretty gutless act. So if I feel I"ve inadvertently done so, I have at least one crack at calming things down. In this case it was hardly the most stridently expressed opinion, and was flagged as such at the outset, but it seemed to elicit a somewhat snakey response from a forumite who typically is pretty chilled. I don"t do 'flame wars' so my desire to cool things down swung into action. 'Most Aussie post'? I choose to take that as a dead set compliment. But don"t worry, I won"t be drinking my own bath water any time soon, no matter how much my tires are pumped up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Grace Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 I like the term "mezzo staccato" better because it's easy to understand, if you're already familiar with "mezzo forte" or "mezzo piano." Best, Geoff Quote My Blue Someday appears on Apple Music | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morizzle Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Yeah, or we could discuss our feelings when we see these markings, or.... Haha! That"s quality. Sorry if I upset you with my fairly inconsequential opinions, my brother. I certainly didn"t intend to inflame such a seemingly frustrated response. I checked out Wikipedia before posting, too. I didn"t feel, based on the entry, that it was intended to apply to piano music. My rationale is based on the reference to it being a 'bowing technique...' But I HAVE seen a lot of weird (frankly, incorrect) sheet music over the years. Totally cool if that"s not your experience. Not saying I"m right either. No dramas either way - go well! Hey man, sorry for the snark, you're cool! Quote It's not a clone, it's a Suzuki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CowboyNQ Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Hey man, sorry for the snark, you're cool! Honestly mate, no apology necessary. All good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountFosco Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 'Most Aussie post'? I choose to take that as a dead set compliment. Glad to hear it, cos that's what it was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 Please understand that kind of sign can have two different meanings according to style: In ancient/baroque music, it's "portato". This is a rather archaic term in Italian; today, "mezzo staccato ("half staccato") is more common. It means playing the notes separately, but less short than a true staccato. In Bach's music, there's a tradition to play quarter notes that way, especially in the bass - even when it's not specifically notated that way. So it has little to do with them being repeated notes. In romantic music, and in piano music in general (as opposed to harpsichord/clavichord music), it often means notes played in a similar way, but with the pedal down. Even though the gesture is the same, the effect is obviously *very* different... a purely "pianistic" effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.