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Kurzweil PC4


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Never tried a Nord P4 -- they sure look good on paper, but are they as good in practice for APs as a PC4?

Action: most would probably say the Nord feels better. The action in the Nord is similar (though not identical) to the action Kurzweil uses in their "mostly higher end version" of the PC4, the Forte, i.e. they are versions of Fatar TP40, but the one that Nord uses is more piano-like than the one Kurzweil uses (since Kurzweil is sold more as a multi-purpose board, and the Nord more as a piano).

 

Sound: Kurzweil has two large-sample set pianos (a Steinway and a Yamaha) plus the small but venerable "triple strike." Nord has a much wider variety of different piano sample sets you can load into it. But which among these different sounding Nord and Kurz pianos is your favorite will be subjective.

 

Few of us have played the new PC4 yet (I have not), but I would expect most people will find the NP4 better strictly as a piano.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Few of us have played the new PC4 yet (I have not), but I would expect most people will find the NP4 better strictly as a piano.

 

It's strange that the Studiologic SL88 grand, with the Fatar TP/40 action, weighs 7 pounds more than the NP4, yet it's only a controller. If it were more lightweight I'd consider it as an option with a nice piano VST.

 

I'm guessing that the PC4/SP6 (Medeli) action is similar to the SL88 studio version, with the Fatar TP/100LR action. This is the compromise that brings the weight down to 30 pounds.

 

Sure wish I had these boards side by side, but that's not gonna happen.

 

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It's strange that the Studiologic SL88 grand, with the Fatar TP/40 action, weighs 7 pounds more than the NP4, yet it's only a controller.

There are variants of TP/40 which will not all weigh the same (especially since I think the difference is usually in the actual weight of the weights attached to the 88 keys). Also, different chassis construction materials can make a difference, and cheaper materials of sufficient strength can weigh more.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Never tried a Nord P4 -- they sure look good on paper, but are they as good in practice for APs as a PC4?

 

Sound: Kurzweil has two large-sample set pianos (a Steinway and a Yamaha) plus the small but venerable "triple strike." Nord has a much wider variety of different piano sample sets you can load into it. But which among these different sounding Nord and Kurz pianos is your favorite will be subjective.

 

 

I might challenge the assumption that Nord has a much wider variety of different piano sample sets you can load into it than Kurzweil because the Kurzweil Forte has more than triple the amount of Flash RAM than the 1GB capacity for piano sounds in the Nord Piano 4. The PC4 has 2GB of Flash Memory for additional sounds.

 

I have a few additional acoustic pianos that I've loaded into my Kurzweil ranging from a sampled upright as well as having a version of the Nord Italian Grand (Fazioli) samples that were converted from Nord format into Kurzweil format by a very clever hack. You just need to look around some of the user groups, VAST, Facebook groups and other forums to find other owners who share or sell their sounds. Lots of options for a Kurzweil beyond the factory stock pianos and Flash RAM rocks.

 

 

 

Yamaha U1 Upright, Roland Fantom 8, Nord Stage 4 HA73, Nord Wave 2, Korg Nautilus 73, Viscount Legend Live, Lots of Mainstage/VST Libraries

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It's strange that the Studiologic SL88 grand, with the Fatar TP/40 action, weighs 7 pounds more than the NP4, yet it's only a controller.

There are variants of TP/40 which will not all weigh the same (especially since I think the difference is usually in the actual weight of the weights attached to the 88 keys). Also, different chassis construction materials can make a difference, and cheaper materials of sufficient strength can weigh more.

 

The Yamaha CP4 shows it's possible to build exquisite hammer action in a 37-pound board with a full sound engine, so it should be possible to build a controller with exquisite action for considerably less than 37. I hope somebody's working on it, or Yamaha's working on a CP4 replacement that's closer to the acoustic piano market than the CP88.

 

Also, as an aside, the Medeli grand hammer action (weighing in at around 27 pounds) I don't think is intended as a compromise, since it's the action on their dedicated stage pianos.

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The Yamaha CP4 shows it's possible to build exquisite hammer action in a 37-pound board with a full sound engine, so it should be possible to build a controller with exquisite action for considerably less than 37.
Taking out the audio electronics won't necessarily make it "considerably" lighter. The Crumar Mojo 61 weighs 24 lbs. Its electronics are essentially the same as the Gemini sound module which weighs 3.3 lbs (including the weights of its own separate chassis and connectors/controls/display). Or look at the Yamaha Reface CP which weighs 4.25 lbs including its own chassis and keyboard. So it's possible that you only have about 3 lbs of audio electronics in a CP4. You could pick up some more savings by going with an external power supply, though (or as a controller it could possibly be USB powered). But most of the weight is in the keys and a chassis strong enough to support them.

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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8

 

Also, as an aside, the Medeli grand hammer action (weighing in at around 27 pounds) I don't think is intended as a compromise, since it's the action on their dedicated stage pianos.

 

I"m guessing that the Medeli action weighs less than 27 pounds, because the SP6 weighs 26-27 pounds in total. While not intended to be a compromise, the action on the SP6 works pretty darn well for organ, because it can use the higher key sensor to trigger it if you set it up that way, and the action has a fairly light touch for a hammer action. It is really fast for playing APs, too.

CA93, MODX8, YC88, K8.2
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Taking out the audio electronics won't necessarily make it "considerably" lighter. The Crumar Mojo 61 weighs 24 lbs. Its electronics are essentially the same as the Gemini sound module which weighs 3.3 lbs (including the weights of its own separate chassis and connectors/controls/display). Or look at the Yamaha Reface CP which weighs 4.25 lbs including its own chassis and keyboard. So it's possible that you only have about 3 lbs of audio electronics in a CP4. You could pick up some more savings by going with an external power supply, though (or as a controller it could possibly be USB powered). But most of the weight is in the keys and a chassis strong enough to support them.

 

Good points.

 

So a controller with superb grand hammer action, as good as the CP4, would be easy to produce weighing in at around 33 pounds (37 minus audio guts and power supply). I'm sure with a little more R&D more economization is possible, both in the chassis and key action itself, maybe bringing it down from 37 to 30 pounds. Not sure how much R&D the market would support though.

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I"m guessing that the Medeli action weighs less than 27 pounds, because the SP6 weighs 26-27 pounds in total. While not intended to be a compromise, the action on the SP6 works pretty darn well for organ, because it can use the higher key sensor to trigger it if you set it up that way, and the action has a fairly light touch for a hammer action. It is really fast for playing APs, too.

 

That's another reason the PC4 is so tempting -- shallow trigger point + drawbar sliders.

 

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So a controller with superb grand hammer action, as good as the CP4, would be easy to produce weighing in at around 33 pounds (37 minus audio guts and power supply). I'm sure with a little more R&D more economization is possible, both in the chassis and key action itself, maybe bringing it down from 37 to 30 pounds. Not sure how much R&D the market would support though.

 

Compare the CP4 with its predecessors (CP5 and CP1). The economization has been done to get the CP4 down to 38lb. There ain't much more to save!

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

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@Fran,

 

There are a couple (at least) of guys on Mastering VAST Forum that have ordered a PC4, might want to post there also.

Howard Grand|Hamm SK1-73|Kurz PC2|PC2X|PC3|PC3X|PC361; QSC K10's

HP DAW|Epi Les Paul & LP 5-str bass|iPad mini2

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Jim

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Hi,

 

ksetlist.com is not an official Kurzweil site although I run it and I work for Kurzweil but the site does not receive any funding or direction from the company. It (badly) survives with Google ads. It was born with one goal, to have a place that was relatively easy to gather free sounds that many people need. Sounds to play classic songs that many orchestras and top40 bands need to play on a weekly basis. While it has a discussion forum, that has always been secondary, as there are many other great discussions forums around, like this one or Mastering VAST, for example.

 

Regards,

Fran

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I hope Kurzweil is able to start a forum someday.
Ksetlist.com
Thanks. I've run across that site, but didn't know it was Kurzweil's. I'll give it a little attention.

Mastering VAST's free stuff is darned good. Its paid-for version is downright incredible for a very low subscription price (probably the tiniest paywall on the Web). Also, MV and ksetlist are both endorsed by Kurzweil -- and like our own KC, they're both occasionally contributed to by current and former Kurzweil staff.

 

(Un-disclaimer: I have no financial interest in any of the three sites.)

 

-Tom Williams

{First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com

PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361

 

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Compare the CP4 with its predecessors (CP5 and CP1). The economization has been done to get the CP4 down to 38lb. There ain't much more to save!

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Or, compare to the CP30, my first board, that I lugged around at about 100 pounds. I think there's more of a market for light weight than for realistic grand AP action, otherwise the PC4 would have TP/40 rather than Medeli, and the CP4 would still be in production.

 

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And in a sense, the CP4 was replaced by the CP88 *and* the CP73 so they found a way to address the "portability is paramount" contingent as well.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I see two markets for stage pianos, one filled by the Casio Privia type boards (88, hammer, less than 30 pounds, internal speakers) and the other market for the "music professionals who do not accept compromise" as Kawai describes its market for the MPs, weighing in at 70+ pounds, usually no internal speakers, and no corners cut on the action. Yamaha has boards in both -- the P-125 for the first and the P-515 for the second. The CP88 is a strange board -- most piano purists would probably prefer the P-515, and certainly not the CP73, while the average gigger probably would prefer the CP73 and not the heavier action and weight of the CP88. The SP6 also is a strange board -- not really targeting the Casio market, rather the "discerning" market, but at a Casio weight. Same goes for the PC4 -- which is the SP6 plus a ton of extras at a Casio weight. Maybe strange is the wrong word, better to call the PC4 a miracle board, or dream board for the gigging player, hard to believe possible.

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The Kurzweils synthesis/signal path can create quality sounds no others can come close to because they lack the right stuff (so to speak). The ROM sounds I've heard do not really go there. The way thimgs are imperfect under the hood has the disadvantage a decent school teacher attitude of working disciplined doesn't really get you out of the whacky woods, and the character of what's imperfect in these VAST machines will come through in most any use situation, which can be a complicated sound horror show.

 

T

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The Kurzweils synthesis/signal path can create quality sounds no others can come close to because they lack the right stuff (so to speak). The ROM sounds I've heard do not really go there. The way thimgs are imperfect under the hood has the disadvantage a decent school teacher attitude of working disciplined doesn't really get you out of the whacky woods, and the character of what's imperfect in these VAST machines will come through in most any use situation, which can be a complicated sound horror show.

 

T

 

Huh? I got lost...road map/GPS please?!

 

 CP-50, YC 73,  FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122

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