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Balancing Levels-AP, EP, Organ


kwyn

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If you use a mixer with one out to the main board, how do you initially balance your own levels in relation to either other?

 

I assume EPS and APs would output with the same volume, but what about organ? How do you balance the organ against the pianos? All draw bars out and pedal down should be a little louder than piano? A lot louder? Or just put the setting you use most? Where do you put the expression pedal when balancing these levels? Floored? 3/4ish?

 

I play mostly classic rock and jam band stuff, if this is matters

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I use acoustic piano as my reference point. I keep it off a volume pedal and always leave my master volume level and FOH send level untouched. When I need extra oomph for a solo, I turn on a booster effect to raise the level. So the piano has 2 levels, standard and solo. All EPs are done the same, and individual patches are balanced against AP so I don't have to ever fiddle with levels for pianos.

 

Organ levels float free. They have to, because I use different drawbar settings, overdrive levels, and am constantly using the expression pedal for dynamics. The organ master level is normally at half so that I have room to go in both directions. It gets mixed by ear against my in ear mix of the band and my keys.

 

I am not always completely successful at the balance. We don't have an FOH person, just our sax player who goes out in the audience for the first number. I have been told at times that people can't hear my piano. However I take most solos on the organ, and it always gets noticed. The organ cuts better than piano for solos in my experience.

Moe

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My remarks are pretty much identical mate stubb's, although now my standard organ setting on the Nord is my default since it is my better-known keyboard...modx being very new, I'm still working on leveling patches. By standard I just mean 88800000 and a little bit of distortion. Once I get that level, I bring the modx to match it and just try my best throughout the night to stay consistent. Our lead singer takes songs off and goes out front, and our bass player is on wireless...so they go out from time to time to check on things. Also, we often have friends from other bands and they offer suggestions (sometimes too many! LOL)
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Over the years I have found that Rhodes patches may be a little soft compared to AP, out of the box. I try to set levels per song. On organ, when I go from 888 to 888888888, I often have to lower volume/expression pedal at the same time. I try to avoid keyboard compressor, letting FOH add that if (s)he needs to do it.

Barry

 

Home: Steinway L, Montage 8

 

Gigs: Yamaha CP88, Crumar Mojo 61, A&H SQ5 mixer, ME1 IEM, MiPro 909 IEMs

 

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In my stage MIDI system, I have a "tune up" configuration that also serves as my reference to balancing volume between all my MIDI devices.

 

All my songs are pre-programmed volume wise against that reference. Seems to have worked pretty well, with the exception of my Hammond clonewheel. Not a fault, but the volume between songs is so dynamic that I prefer to set the maximum volume using the master volume then use my MIDI sweep pedal to attenuate the volume. Too many times the organ is a rhythm component and I could never set the MIDI sweep pedal at mid sweep without it blasting at solo volume.

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Good question, really. These days it's a single NS3 making all the sounds, so it should be easy, right? Easier than balancing a multi-source rig, but still ...

 

Any initial balancing that I do (e.g. setting up presets in the Nord) seems to get blown out in the fog of war. Well, it sounded good in the studio. Right?

 

Wrong. During the gig, I am continually tweaking volume levels during each song as my theoretically balanced patches crumble in battle. I never have done well with a volume pedal, so it's me on the volume knobs with my left hand as I keep things going with my right. Funny that there are no Hanon exercises for that ...

 

At the end of the number, I press the red button twice so they're stored there for next time, so that I have arguably a better starting point for when I do it all over again the next time I play out. Those saved levels sound super harsh back in the studio, so maybe it makes sense to start thinking in terms of two variants.

 

Like others here, I'm primarily an AP banger, so that's where I start: everything at 50% to leave plenty of headroom down the line. The exception is a few numbers where it's all about Vox/Farf sounds, which don't have the level I'd like on the Nords. For those, I have to start there and work around what they can do, e.g. Runaway or similar. And getting pad voice levels right is a continual struggle. It's all about balance.

 

I present a balanced mix to (occasional) FOH. It's up to me to boost for solos and handle my own multi-instrument levels. Yes organs cut better than APs, but my AP solo work is more intricate, and people appear to listen. The thing that really gets attention is when I use interesting acoustic voices: accordion, banjo, harmonium, steel drum, acoustic guitar, flute, deep cello. Example, a deep cello solo on Ain't No Sunshine.

 

Let us know if you solve the puzzle?

Want to make your band better?  Check out "A Guide To Starting (Or Improving!) Your Own Local Band"

 

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My experience playing smaller venues without a professional FOH engineer is that no matter how much time I spend balancing patches for songs with multiple sounds, for example, AP, EP, B3 and synth in a song, or between songs, I never get it quite right on the night. I set the FOH level during sound check and leave the level untouched all night.. For songs which call for exposed AP, for example Back to Black it works well with the volume pedal getting little use. But once we get to a Springsteen song where B3 has to fit in with guitar, things get can go awry, like I am to low in the mix even with the expression pedal maxed out.

 

That is where I use the volume slider on my mixer that controls my on stage monitor to boost my level without changing the level that goes to FOH.

 

I cannot control or predict the sound level of others during a gig, particularly guitar, so being able to adjust to that variable is critical to keeping keys in the mix where they need to be.

 

Love to have the services of a pro FOH engineer who knows the sonic peculiarities of every venue and the ideal balance for every song on the set list but that is not going to happen in my lifetime. Plus I been to performances by international acts who have the best FOH guys money can buy and they still take the first three songs to sort the balance out.

A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P

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The organ master level is normally at half so that I have room to go in both directions. It gets mixed by ear against my in ear mix of the band and my keys.

 

I realize that comment may be about the knob rather than the pedal, but I have always wondered about what angle folks keep the expression pedal when setting organ levels. Is there a standard practice? I hope that's not too OT for this thread, but I would be interested. I try to sound check with the pedal halfway but I tend to run out of room volume-wise when raising my own levels for solos or fills.

Numa X Piano 73 | Yamaha CP4 | Mojo 61 | Motion Sound KP-612s | Hammond M3

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The organ master level is normally at half so that I have room to go in both directions. It gets mixed by ear against my in ear mix of the band and my keys.

 

I realize that comment may be about the knob rather than the pedal, but I have always wondered about what angle folks keep the expression pedal when setting organ levels. Is there a standard practice? I hope that's not too OT for this thread, but I would be interested. I try to sound check with the pedal halfway but I tend to run out of room volume-wise when raising my own levels for solos or fills.

 

I set the pedal to max then adjust the volume knob for the appropriate song. Some songs only need rhythm volume, others might need solo volume. Setting the pedal at mid-travel for rhythm never worked that well, it is hard to find the right mid travel point with your foot. Then I hit that chord and my rhythm volume is blasting... gave that up a long time ago.

 

Well, it sounded good in the studio. Right?

 

Wrong. During the gig, I am continually tweaking volume levels during each song as my theoretically balanced patches crumble in battle. I never have done well with a volume pedal, so it's me on the volume knobs with my left hand as I keep things going with my right. Funny that there are no Hanon exercises for that ...

 

...

 

Let us know if you solve the puzzle?

 

My solution was to use stage speakers that sound as close to the studio speakers as possible. Studio is JBL Control-5 speakers. I found that my Bose 802 speakers translate my configurations from the studio to the stage extremely well.

 

Yes they're old, but they sound great. If it ain't broke...

 

I found way too many stage speakers that have peaks and valleys in the frequency response all over the place. That's a big reason why people have trouble making studio mixes sound great on stage. Many people complain that the Bose speakers sound like crap; the crucial element is to use the companion 802-C processor which makes a huge improvement.

 

The other part of the puzzle is how a sound fits in the context of a band. What sounds great in a solo context like your personal studio won't always work in a band/stage. A good example is the piano - in a band context you really need a piano with much of the low frequencies attenuated to be heard. The only time I use a piano with full frequency range is a ballad with few other instruments playing.

 

Love to have the services of a pro FOH engineer who knows the sonic peculiarities of every venue and the ideal balance for every song on the set list but that is not going to happen in my lifetime. Plus I been to performances by international acts who have the best FOH guys money can buy and they still take the first three songs to sort the balance out.

 

I am very lucky to have joined a band using a professional FOH engineer who appreciates all the instruments not just one or two. He doesn't just make my keys sound good, he makes the band sound good. He used to tour nationally but got tired of the travel - he only does local shows now, and he enjoys working with us. I get constructive feedback from him which is a big help as he is my ears out front. I know my way around consoles and processors and speakers, and I don't need to tell this guy how to do his job. Great to be working with a competent FOH guy.

 

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