Major-Minor blues scale?

[CountFosco]

I watched this vid a few times last night, to try to decipher the scales Rai uses.

 

 

The piece is a major 12 bar blues in G. To my ear, he's using a scale which combines all notes of major and minor blues scales for each chord. And he's not jumping in and out of the major or minor mode, he uses it as a scale in its own right. For eg on the G he's using all of:

G Bb C Db D F

+

G A Bb B D E

=

G A Bb B C Db D E F

 

which is essentially all notes of a G chromatic apart from Ab, Eb and F#. (b2, #5, #7)

 

Is this a thing? Does this scale have a name?

[MathOfInsects]

It is absolutely a thing, a sort of "next-level" approach to the blues, and if you add the natural 7 you can play that "mega-scale" over all three chords in the (major) blues changes.

 

I have never heard it named; it is just an approach to blues playing that expands the palette beyond the "minor" blues scale to incorporate the "major" blues scale, plus whatever other notes make it work best to your ear.

[CountFosco]

It is absolutely a thing, a sort of "next-level" approach to the blues, and if you add the natural 7 you can play that "mega-scale" over all three chords in the (major) blues changes.

 

I have never heard it named; it is just an approach to blues playing that expands the palette beyond the "minor" blues scale to incorporate the "major" blues scale, plus whatever other notes make it work best to your ear.

 

Thanks Math, I'm going to work on incorporating this more into my playing. Regarding the mega-scale over all three chords thing, I still hear Rai switch up scales (somehow) for each chord. He makes a particular point of highlighting this when he moves from G to C - I guess the Eb and F# come into play, and he gets a bit more mileage out of the Enat. I think the scale change itself is also part of what makes this jam sound next level.

[El Lobo]

I don't think in terms of scales. A sax player friend says to call it "groups of notes." I always say the scale I use is the chromatic scale. I can do this much better on sax. On keys I'm much more stuck in pentatonics with passing tones. But yeah, in a blues you can use most of the notes of a chromatic scale as long as you move through them to chord tones, pentatonics, and notes that you know are going to work. It's hard to work in the b2 except as part of a chromatic run. But you should be able to find a place for the #5 and the major 7, at least as passing notes if not part of improvised lines. If you have to have a name for the scale, you can call it the major-minor blues scale like you're doing. But I suggest you free yourself from the confines of naming a scale and think of it as "all these notes can work if I use them right."

[analogika]

Just to throw some more meat to the wolves:

 

It's switching between Dorian and Mixolydian (depending on the b3 or natural 3), with a b5 thrown in as additional blue note.

[CountFosco]

It's switching between Dorian and Mixolydian (depending on the b3 or natural 3), with a b5 thrown in as additional blue note.

 

Yeah that sounds like a reasonable way to look at it. For the most part, any lick uses only one of the flat or nat 3.

[dazzjazz]

In my own playing concept and teaching methods, I call that scale The Greater Blues Scale.

[GovernorSilver]

Rai sounds like he's drawing from classic bebop vocabulary. For example, there's a lick he used at least twice in the video which is very similar to the one Wynton Kelly plays at 0:25 here:

 

[video:youtube]

 

I have found that it is actually more efficient use of time to learn the licks and practice them, rather than try to figure out what if he used this blues scale or that blues scale. Youtube now has a built-in control for slowing down the audio, so you can use that to help transcribe or otherwise learn the lick by ear.

 

Bebop is focused on targeting chord tones, so it helps to understand how the lick maps to the chord(s) that the lick was played with. You'll want to learn which notes in the lick are the chord tones, and which notes were used as passing tones. In G Major blues, the Bb is just a passing tone. You'll want to get into the habit of analyzing blues and bebop stuff from the perspective of harmony (chords).

 

Barry Harris has an interesting set of rules for utilizing passing tones for a "chromatic" sound. I'm sure someone else can expand on that, as this forum has several Barry Harris devotees.

 

Also, Rai is using some chord substitutions, the simplest being subbing a dominant chord for the major. So keep that in mind in your analysis.

[ABECK]

I remember my teacher showing me some parts with the 3 and flat 3. I just stared at it and said "huh, I never would have done it that way" Now I do it all the time.

[Stokely]

As a non-jazz player rock hack, I normally just deal with good ol major minor (or power chords!) with some 7ths etc.

 

I was covering "Can't Change Me" by Chris Cornell the other day, and as always I go to that wondrous place "Ultimate Guitar" for a leg up on the chords! UG has been the source of many a band sheet for me...anyway, in that song is this:

 

F#m11*

 

I think I saw it somewhere else as a flat five minor with a major third somewhere in there...darn you, Cornell!

[CountFosco]

The Greater Blues Scale.

What the good doctor said works for me.

 

[GovernorSilver]

As a non-jazz player rock hack, I normally just deal with good ol major minor (or power chords!) with some 7ths etc.

 

I was covering "Can't Change Me" by Chris Cornell the other day, and as always I go to that wondrous place "Ultimate Guitar" for a leg up on the chords! UG has been the source of many a band sheet for me...anyway, in that song is this:

 

F#m11*

 

I think I saw it somewhere else as a flat five minor with a major third somewhere in there...darn you, Cornell!

 

I'm not familiar with that song but this article describes chords with mixed minor and major 3rds - eg "split 3rd"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Added_tone_chord

[CountFosco]

It wasn't really the flat 3 / nat 3 thing that caught my attention in the original video. The major blues scale already has that, and #9 extensions are a ubiquitous requirement in funk covers. What intrigued me was the number of notes Rai had available to create his licks and trying to work out how to make them available to me. I like the name "Greater Blues Scale", I'm going to use that. And googling that in quotes returns zero results, very cool dazzjazz.

[PianoMan51]

I guess I"ll put my nickel"s worth in.

 

The G-Bb-C-C#-D-F pattern I think of as 'traditional 12-bar blues" appropriate.

- Notice it"s got only the flat 7th of the tonic. Ain"t gonna be no damn 'major 7ths" I this song.

- Notice it"s got only the flat 3rd of the tonic. No V7+9 needed.

- Notice it"s got the 4th. This what sets up the whole blues-rock useage of a IV chord as a suspension of the tonic.

 

Now take that exact same pattern but start it on the relative minor, in this case E. (We"re still in the key of G).

 

The E-G-A-A#-B-D pattern is what I think of as 'traditional jazz" appropriate in the key of G.

- Notice we have major and minor thirds good for major third of the tonic, and flat 7 of the subdominant. And shifting between them melodically gives a bluesy flavor.

- Notice we have the sweet but harmonically neutral 6th and 9th.

- Notice we have no major or flat 7th. A lot of 'jazz blues" will leave the status of major vs flat 7th ambiguous.

- Notice there is no 4th. The 'don"t play this" note for trad jazz.

 

I don"t hear these two scales melding into one scale, but rather a quick switching between two styles (and two scales) according to the desire of the player.

 

 

 

 

[Ken Beaumont]

I've heard it called the "extended blues scale" by guitarists.

[CountFosco]

This site mentions "extended blues scale" and describes it as "The extended blues scale is the major and minor blues scale combined. The extended blues scale gives you some interesting shapes to play that produce both a funky and gospel infused sound."

 

https://www.pianogroove.com/blues-piano-lessons/blues-scale-improvisation-tutorial/

 

Perfect, thanks Toano.

[GovernorSilver]

It wasn't really the flat 3 / nat 3 thing that caught my attention in the original video. The major blues scale already has that, and #9 extensions are a ubiquitous requirement in funk covers. What intrigued me was the number of notes Rai had available to create his licks and trying to work out how to make them available to me. I like the name "Greater Blues Scale", I'm going to use that. And googling that in quotes returns zero results, very cool dazzjazz.

 

All of those notes?

 

The most straightforward way would be to use the speed control in Youtube to slow down that video, and transcribe his licks. That's the one guaranteed way to get all the notes.

 

It would also help to make note of what arpeggios he played. Some are straight up G7 for example, but in some instances it sound like he played alterations to the dominant chords. Some people say just learn the Altered Scale (eg. Super Locrian) and you're done, but it doesn't work for all dominant chords - sometimes you get some clashes that don't sound that great - this is based on trying it for myself - so better to be familiar with the various ways to alter a dominant chord, and how they sound instead of trying to find the "right scale".

 

Barry Harris teaches training minor and dominant chords the same - this might be a factor too.

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

Worth reposting from the other thread

 

https://www.jazzadvice.com/you-are-your-own-instrument/

[MathOfInsects]

The Greater Blues Scale.

What the good doctor said works for me.

Agreed, it's a perfect name for it.

[MathOfInsects]

It wasn't really the flat 3 / nat 3 thing that caught my attention in the original video. The major blues scale already has that, and #9 extensions are a ubiquitous requirement in funk covers. What intrigued me was the number of notes Rai had available to create his licks and trying to work out how to make them available to me. I like the name "Greater Blues Scale", I'm going to use that. And googling that in quotes returns zero results, very cool dazzjazz.

 

All of those notes?

 

The most straightforward way would be to use the speed control in Youtube to slow down that video, and transcribe his licks. That's the one guaranteed way to get all the notes.

 

It would also help to make note of what arpeggios he played. Some are straight up G7 for example, but in some instances it sound like he played alterations to the dominant chords. Some people say just learn the Altered Scale (eg. Super Locrian) and you're done, but it doesn't work for all dominant chords - sometimes you get some clashes that don't sound that great - this is based on trying it for myself - so better to be familiar with the various ways to alter a dominant chord, and how they sound instead of trying to find the "right scale".

 

Barry Harris teaches training minor and dominant chords the same - this might be a factor too.

 

 

 

It's definitely a topic worth its own thread, but: I tend to think in terms of target notes, and how I want to approach (or avoid) them. Often this ENDS UP as a mode, but it often can be as simple and just deciding that I want a maj7 on the way down to my dom-7 scale tone, or I want my flat-3 to let the sun come out a little at the end of a phrase and turn major, OR that I want to do something a bit more slip-slidey and stay away from my targets completely until I finally land on one to relieve the [tension and/or cacophony/disaster depending on the night].

[Threadslayer]

I guess I"ll put my nickel"s worth in.

 

The G-Bb-C-C#-D-F pattern I think of as 'traditional 12-bar blues" appropriate.

- Notice it"s got only the flat 7th of the tonic. Ain"t gonna be no damn 'major 7ths" I this song.

- Notice it"s got only the flat 3rd of the tonic. No V7+9 needed.

- Notice it"s got the 4th. This what sets up the whole blues-rock useage of a IV chord as a suspension of the tonic.

 

Now take that exact same pattern but start it on the relative minor, in this case E. (We"re still in the key of G).

 

The E-G-A-A#-B-D pattern is what I think of as 'traditional jazz" appropriate in the key of G.

- Notice we have major and minor thirds good for major third of the tonic, and flat 7 of the subdominant. And shifting between them melodically gives a bluesy flavor.

- Notice we have the sweet but harmonically neutral 6th and 9th.

- Notice we have no major or flat 7th. A lot of 'jazz blues" will leave the status of major vs flat 7th ambiguous.

- Notice there is no 4th. The 'don"t play this" note for trad jazz.

 

I don"t hear these two scales melding into one scale, but rather a quick switching between two styles (and two scales) according to the desire of the player.

 

 

 

That's exactly the way I've always thought of it. I do it so often that I don't really have to think about it, but if I did think about it - That's what I'd think.

[Docbop]

If you think in terms of Negative Harmony like Dizzy mentioned in his book then that works, but with Negative Harmony line direction has a lot to do with which notes to use when.

[dazzjazz]

FWIW, I discuss The Greater Blues Scale in my PhD thesis. Contact me via my website if you want a copy of it.

[CountFosco]

FWIW, I discuss The Greater Blues Scale in my PhD thesis.

Yes, it's right there on page 28. I had the answer to my original question sitting in my "to read" list. Thanks Darren.

[Bobby Simons]

Great playing. That Nord becomes an instrument and not just a keyboard in his hands, if you know what I mean. My GAS kicked in during that video.

[Legatoboy]

There is also a piece of the Diminished scale substitution a half step up from the root that can be played over any Dom 7 chord in there if you want to see the Db, D , E and F that way...

That is used in Jazz and sort of the basis for a good part of the be-bop scale..

[montunoman]

I"ve been working out of the book ' The Blues Scale Essential Tools For Jazz Improvisation ' by Dan Greenblatt.

It contains very nice examples and exudes demonstrating when to use the ' minor blues' scale and 'major'blues scale.

 

In a nutshell use the major blues scale over the I, iii, and vi chords and the minor blues scale on all the other chords.

This approach has really helped me creat more interesting solos not only in jazz blues but also in the basic three chord blues as well.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Blues-Scales-Essential-Improvisation-Version/dp/1883217393/ref=asc_df_1883217393/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312050264297&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15624745216619903117&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9026819&hvtargid=pla-301489342750&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=61316180559&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312050264297&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15624745216619903117&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9026819&hvtargid=pla-301489342750