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Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
#3007328 09/09/19 08:02 PM
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...and whose head also hurts every time they hear it? I am referring to the famous intro to carwash. It is fine until the keys come in with the low riff. No matter how many times I hear it it sets my teeth on edge. It sounds in the wrong place and I cannot hear it otherwise. Later in the song it is placed after beat three where it sits comfortably, but in the intro it seems crowbarred in after beat 2 and to my poor ears it just sounds wrong. I keep imagining that maybe it was accidentally placed out of sync with the rest of the track and nobody realised until it was too late. Is that possible? Or is it just that I cannot hear & appreciate what everyone else can?



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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this into sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007333 09/09/19 08:34 PM
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The claps start on two, the piano is always walking up to land on one. It sounds like the claps start on one, but the hi-hat and second guitar coming in lines it up. If you don't count through the intro and just let yourself groove, I'm sure it'll feel right.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this into sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007341 09/09/19 09:12 PM
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Yup. Claps go: Two, Four, Two, A-Three And Four. Hi hat is closed on the beat, and open on the "and" between the beats. It all falls into place.

Cheers, Mike.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this into sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007349 09/09/19 09:42 PM
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What these guys above me said....

Totally fits and works. Sounds good to me. Pure classic funk style riff and placement.


be careful digging deep into Parliament Funkedelic if this drive you nuts.... (and I mean their deep tracks).....

Just went and caught an old live performance..... bass solo, with a snare hit on the and of three....
1 and 2 and 3 and(SNARE) 4 and Bass always hitting the one with a big slap.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007354 09/09/19 10:24 PM
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I have wondered if the studio track should have started with that big bass slap on One. Would have oriented listeners that the first clap is on two.

Some of us need that help laugh

I do recognize that Parliament/Funkadelic was not obligated to help “some of us.”


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007356 09/09/19 10:46 PM
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Thanks guys. I am not surprised that I have been hearing it wrong.... getting things back to front is my specialty, and this is not the first time that something like this has happened to me. The thing is though: listening again and bearing in mind what you have just said, I am still really struggling to hear it properly. It sounds much better for a bit and then my entire body - which has for decades been feeling it incorrectly - is fighting hard against my mind to turn it back to what it is used to. I guess it will take a bit of time and effort to unlearn the muscle memory established over decades......

I am also not surprised that I am the only one hearing it incorrectly, but I would be so happy if it turned out that I am not the only person on Earth who was doing this.....

I shall have to look up Parliament Funkadelic Dave...... I actually do love music where the beat becomes complex or ambiguous ....
Maybe once I have cracked carwash I will be ready to face it..... grin


"Turn your fingers into a dust rag and keep them keys clean!" wink Bluzeyone
Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007357 09/09/19 10:54 PM
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I always had trouble with "Take It Easy."

I remember the first time I heard "Sunshine Of Your Love." I had walked into a room when it was on, and for some reason mis-heard the head as beginning on the 2 beat. Just for fun, the last band I was in decided to give it a try. During the solos we changed up the backbeat, and went back to normal for the last verse. It felt like the musical equivalent of a tilt-a-whirl.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007358 09/09/19 11:18 PM
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As a song writer, there are ' devices ' to get attention.

It does not have to be musically 'perfect'.

The opening claps might be a gimmick, a way of getting attention.
Or the song writer wanted to stick in the clap along thing
as a way to get the audience involved.

Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007360 09/09/19 11:22 PM
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Guess I listen to too much house. Prototype house beat years before the genre. I was in the groove from the start.

Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007362 09/09/19 11:34 PM
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I might just know it too intimately by now, but I instantly hear those claps as a two-four backbeat.


"
Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
MathOfInsects #3007372 09/10/19 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MAJUSCULE
The claps start on two, the piano is always walking up to land on one. It sounds like the claps start on one, but the hi-hat and second guitar coming in lines it up.

Originally Posted by MathOfInsects
I might just know it too intimately by now, but I instantly hear those claps as a two-four backbeat.
I think this is the key. If you start off hearing the claps on 2 and 4, you lock in to the groove and the piano lands on the 1. If you start off hearing the first clap as the 1, you can't get to the groove until you force yourself into it. And it sounds like the piano is coming in wrong.

Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007376 09/10/19 01:52 AM
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What lined Car Wash up for me is that the track starts on the 1 with a vocal aah and some noise. Everything naturally fell in place from there, but then again I've heard a lot of house wink

On the subject of intros that confuse, this one threw at least 1/2 the band off when it came out. We wasted way too much time getting this very simple intro down. And yeah... I was in a band that played new wave way back when laugh


Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007378 09/10/19 02:11 AM
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Car Wash's opening clap has always been a favorite rhythmic surprise.

I wrestled with my band for months about the beginning of "Take it Easy."

The third in our series of "where's the beat" is "I Wanna Hold Your Hand," which starts on the And of Three.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007381 09/10/19 02:20 AM
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Played the song for years and it always felt right to me....


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007384 09/10/19 02:38 AM
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With Car Wash, of course you know those claps are going to be on 2 and 4 so everything falls into place knowing that. There isn’t a full beat one in the recording which might make you second guess yourself on first listen. But how many soul tracks can you name where they’re clapping on 1 and 3? wink

The Devo pattern isn’t a surprise since the riff starts on one. The drummer just needs to know to crack on the and of beat 4 when he comes in. If he buggers it - it’s all his fault.

Sometimes tracks with delay FX patterns that layer and build make a measure elusive to find. Especially if they decide to do a fade in. So you work backwards from where the groove kicks in.



But this is 4/4 music. So, don’t over think it. The pattern is going to have a simple loop, you just need to find one and tap your foot from there. smile


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007390 09/10/19 03:30 AM
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It took me years to be able to hear the beat right on "Spirits in the Material World." The bass line would mislead me and I was a half beat off when the backbeat came in on the chorus.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007391 09/10/19 03:30 AM
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Is it weird that I can instantly hear the proper beat on all the examples here?

I don't recall that DEVO song, but they weren't even a half measure before I was tapping my foot on the proper beat.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007392 09/10/19 03:34 AM
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I give up on James Brown's "I Got the Feelin'". As many times as I've heard it, probably in the hundreds, I'm still not sure where the one is supposed to be.


Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
Bradley B #3007396 09/10/19 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Bradley B
I give up on James Brown's "I Got the Feelin'". As many times as I've heard it, probably in the hundreds, I'm still not sure where the one is supposed to be.



The first beat of the song is the 1. (The groove is ONE and two AND three AND four and | one and TWO AND THREE and FOUR AND :|| [ONE] . etc.)

This one is one of those cases where I can't hear how it can be anything else. Honest question out of pure curiosity: what are you hearing when you're hearing it "wrong"?


"
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MathOfInsects #3007398 09/10/19 04:26 AM
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Yes, I assume that beat too. Until it gets to the bridge where it seems like the time slips half a beat. The only way I can follow it all the way across the bridge is to assume that the beat you refer to as ONE is actually the and of FOUR. Then the horns popping the high F and Eb are really on TWO and THREE.

Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
Bradley B #3007401 09/10/19 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bradley B
Yes, I assume that beat too. Until it gets to the bridge where it seems like the time slips half a beat. The only way I can follow it all the way across the bridge is to assume that the beat you refer to as ONE is actually the and of FOUR. Then the horns popping the high F and Eb are really on TWO and THREE.


The bridge changes on the 1 as well.

The horns are on the 2-ands. It is all in straight 4, no missed beats.


"
Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007403 09/10/19 04:40 AM
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I heard the intro/1st verse of "Tell Me Something Good" backwards for years until I played it with a band. Hearing a count-off solidified everything for me.

Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007416 09/10/19 10:17 AM
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Take It Easy +1. I always heard the guitar come in on the one, with an extra eighth-note before the verse.

Also the intro to "Drive My Car"- comes in on the And of 4. (Although plenty of wrong transcriptions out there).

I'm still struggling with Roxanne!

Cheers, Mike.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
EscapeRocks #3007418 09/10/19 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
Is it weird that I can instantly hear the proper beat on all the examples here?

I don't recall that DEVO song, but they weren't even a half measure before I was tapping my foot on the proper beat.


No. They’re all in 4/4 with no changing meter.


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007419 09/10/19 10:56 AM
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I always liked that 6 bar turnaround in the chorus of Roxanne, always stuck out as something novel. And the on-beat guitar part in the verse is kinda reggae but not.

Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this into sounds wrong?
EscapeRocks #3007426 09/10/19 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
Pure classic funk style riff and placement.

Totally agree. Prince studied these techniques intensely and you can hear them on his intros as well.

Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
Just went and caught an old live performance..... bass solo, with a snare hit on the and of three....
1 and 2 and 3 and(SNARE) 4 and Bass always hitting the one with a big slap.

Bass always hitting the one, LOL. Bootsy Collins once said the biggest influence on his style was James Brown. A young Bootsy was touring with James Brown and finding new creative bass riffs to sneak into the songs. Grooves were getting busier as the tour progressed. Mr. Brown was unimpressed and one day told the Bootsy sharply, "You gotta remember, I am paying the one paying your bills, and I'm only paying you for the ones!" Bootsy got the message.

Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this into sounds wrong?
drawback #3007435 09/10/19 02:06 PM
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The Beatles' "She's a Woman" is the first song I remember catching my attention with this sort of thing, since it starts with unaccompanied guitar stabs, and then the rhythm section enters to reveal (surprise!) that the guitar was playing on beats 2 and 4. Though, as some mentioned above, "Tell Me Something Good" STILL gives me a hard time when I hear it. Love it, though.

You know what other song starts with hits on 2 and 4 that gives me a lot more trouble feeling the beat? "Ride the Lightning" by Metallica. Not nearly as funky.

I do have an original song that starts with a keyboard lick that goes "and two and three and four AND," with an accent that ties over the bar into the first downbeat. The bass fills in octave-fifth-root on "AND four AND," which felt natural since I played both keys and bass on the track when my band recorded it, but since then I've had a lot of trouble getting other bass players to feel it properly.
Originally Posted by drawback
I remember the first time I heard "Sunshine Of Your Love." I had walked into a room when it was on, and for some reason mis-heard the head as beginning on the 2 beat. Just for fun, the last band I was in decided to give it a try. During the solos we changed up the backbeat, and went back to normal for the last verse. It felt like the musical equivalent of a tilt-a-whirl.
My guitar player is on record as hating Ginger Baker's drumming because "it always sounds like the beat is turned around." GB's chops are undeniable but his playing style isn't quite like you hear on the James Brown stuff above!


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this into sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007436 09/10/19 02:17 PM
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A few off the top of my head:

20th Century Fox - We gave up on this one, the drummer insisted the rest of us were adding an extra beat (since he heard the one a beat early)
Everybody Wants to Rule the World - Guitar opening i'm not sure what beat he's starting on

- Jimbo


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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
xKnuckles #3007444 09/10/19 03:41 PM
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Tell Me Something Good was the song that got me for a long time.



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Re: Is there anyone else who thinks this intro sounds wrong?
JimboKeys #3007445 09/10/19 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JimboKeys
Everybody Wants to Rule the World - Guitar opening i'm not sure what beat he's starting on
Ah, you hooked me. I had to dig that one up again for a listen.

So it's in 12/8 - 1-and-a 2-and-a 3-and-a 4-and-a. The keyboard pickup starts on the And of 3

Three: (tacet)
And: d
A: A
4: F#
And: A
A: D (and guitar slide)
Then the guitar f#-a-f#-b-f#-a figure starts on beat one.

Underrated band imho.

Cheers, Mike.


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