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For the jazz players here � channeling my inner Sven! :-)


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Not in a microcosm, jazz or jazzish isn't where he worked as an artist.

But interesting point - if this was all one had to go by - one might presume him a jazz pianist and wouldn't be impressed.

 

But hats off to the far reaching impact of jazz music. Music makers and music producers tend to still be fascinated with the art form and dabble in it in their own playing. Which I am sure is very true for all of us, especially those of us who are not jazz purists.

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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For "normal" musicians, the division lines here are perfectly clear, there is this incessant desire to let certain circles receive affirmative action, shortcuts, dishonest advantages, receive "old boy" privileges, etcetera etc. Not very interesting.

 

I recall vividly that as early keyboard player (in my teens) I coveted being a solid and flashy player in some sense. I was very aware that my chords were from church harmonies and my rhythm keeping abilities had only begun, and tha mature improvisation skills where the proper domain of a happy few.

 

Maybe the Zeitgeist is to deny all those feeling that could make a lesser man feel self-doubting and therefore must be prevented at the cost of an unreasonable amount of assertiveness. That is failing, IMHO

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They"ve all gone Hollywood and cast aside any integrity they might have had. It"s just about how many asses they can get in the seats.

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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All of these posts are of course just killing time until Sven weighs in . . . .

 

If I'm honest, I'm not certain I know why I was bestowed the honorific of being in the title of this particular thread,

Just a little tongue-in-cheek attempt at humor, seeing as you aren't known for holding back your opinions and telling it like it is. If this is an honor you'd rather not be bestowed with (ever, or just this particular instance), I'm happy to edit the title of the thread (if I still can!).

 

Oh, sorry, I missed that; guess I'm mellowing since the change of ownership 'round these parts! LOL

 

Given this description, I'm happy to accept the honor (or, in my neck of the woods, honour ;) ). Thanks! :2thu:

 

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I also think we forget how passive and uninformed basically 99.999994% of music listeners are--and I don't even mean that as a knock. So many elements that we would consider so elementary as to be universal, don't even register on most people's radar. We just forget because we have been speaking this language for so long.

 

I'll give a couple of examples. Do you know Pink Floyd's "Great Gig in the Sky"? Even if you don't, all you have to know is this: it's a vocal solo by an obviously and unambiguously female singer. Yet I clearly remember a conversation in college where a bunch of us were sitting around talking about bands, and that song came up, and someone asked who sang it, and one of the guys said it's "just one of the Floyd guys." I said it was obviously a woman and someone else said it was hard to tell. The concept of studio musicians wasn't well known to us, so the majority settled on it having to be one of the males in the group. It made an impression on me because of how utterly and obviously wrong that was, and how anyone could think it was anything but a female. But again, most people are not critical music listeners.

 

This one is even worse, and happened just a year or two ago, and I mentioned it here once. I played a duo gig with a guitar player. So, me on keys playing only piano and EP sounds, and a guitar player playing guitar.

 

The gig ends. I am outside afterward, maybe going to get my car. A woman makes a beeline for me. "Oh my god, we LOVED the music. We listened to every note. I want to hire you to play a dinner we are having." Great. We take out phones and exchange info. Mid-exchange, she said, "Just remind me which one you were--were you the sax player?"

 

That seemed crazy to me. But I think she just registered that there was music and mentally filled in whatever that meant to her.

 

All those commenters on the non-jazz piano noodle video...they are muggle. They are not trying to insult jazz or anyone's sensibilities. They are just coming up with the only name they can think of for something they have no framework for. For every one of us wincing when he can't land his left hand in time, there are a hundred of them seeing someone play piano with chops that seem monstrous to them, and giving it whatever names seems to fit for them.

 

 

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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... All those commenters on the non-jazz piano noodle video...they are muggle. They are not trying to insult jazz or anyone's sensibilities. They are just coming up with the only name they can think of for something they have no framework for. For every one of us wincing when he can't land his left hand in time, there are a hundred of them seeing someone play piano with chops that seem monstrous to them, and giving it whatever names seems to fit for them.
We are all muggles in some way. Even in those things we think we are not.
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I finally watched the FJK Tokyo video. OK!

 

I didn't hate it as much as I though I might based on some of the comments I'm seeing here. But I still think it's a very low bar of performance quality. Compare it to a band like KNOWER who you could kind of consider as occupying the same space in modern jazz. It's Jr high Vs Grad School.

 

[video:youtube]

Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37

 

My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section

https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native

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I finally watched the FJK Tokyo video. OK!

 

I didn't hate it as much as I though I might based on some of the comments I'm seeing here. But I still think it's a very low bar of performance quality. Compare it to a band like KNOWER who you could kind of consider as occupying the same space in modern jazz. It's Jr high Vs Grad School.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Do you hear a jazz lineage or find this Knower track to illustrate a branch on the jazz family tree?

I am not familiar with their work and only listened to the YouTube link.

To my ear it harkens back to early 80s English avant-garde synth-pop.

In this case fabricated from loops and samples loaded up in Abelton Live.

Or are you saying the opposite - there"s a much stronger connection to Jazz coming out of KLJ than other acts in current electronic music? In which case, one would hope so, as it"s KLJ taking the stage at the Montreux Jazz Festival. ;)

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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"Jazz" is almost a throwaway term now imo. To those of use who grew up on the music of Bird, Miles, and Trane it means one thing. To the general public, probably any kind of instrumental music that features improvisation that's not in the top 40 is automatically "jazz." I'm quite sure there are plenty of folk that would call both Knower and FKJ's music jazz.

 

If you're asking about which of the two acts â Knower or FKJ â is closer to jazz in the traditionally defined term (defined by those who, as I said, grew up learning about the history and studying the masters), my answer would be Knower. I'm biased because I have an opinion shaped from a lifetime of listening and learning from jazz musicians that span a very wide range of styles. What I hear in FKJ's music â not only the noodling piano video I posted at the top of this thread, but his usual electronic work â is someone technically proficient at operating loopers and computers, but whose music comes from an extremely limited harmonic palette. He relies on the "assistance" (as Buddy Rich once famously said!) to get over. Make no mistake, he's good at it. However, take away the computer, looper, etc. and what you get is the video that I started this thread with â noodleworld. As for Knower, although the example you posted seems to have zero actual improvisation, it shows one of the fundamental aspects of what I consider good jazz: imagination fused with raw talent. They use the "assistance" but they don't necessarily need the assistance! The example below comes to mind, which I think illustrates my point. This is most certainly jazz that's way closer to the tradition than anything I've heard from FKJ:

 

[video:youtube]

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"To those of use who grew up on the music of Bird, Miles, and Trane it means one thing.

 

Just to be a pill....

 

Those who grew up on Armstrong, Beiderbecke, Whiteman, and Goodman, would have said the same thing about Bird, Miles, and Trane. Bop was NOT considered jazz by many millions of listeners; rather, it signaled the death blow of a fading form, musical homicide at the hands of disrespectful pretenders to the crown.

 

I am NOT putting FKJ in the same category as Bird and Trane. Just noting that this conversation takes place every time someone's personal definition of a changing form, comes face to face with that change.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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"To those of use who grew up on the music of Bird, Miles, and Trane it means one thing.

 

Just to be a pill....

 

Those who grew up on Armstrong, Beiderbecke, Whiteman, and Goodman, would have said the same thing about Bird, Miles, and Trane. Bop was NOT considered jazz by many millions of listeners; rather, it signaled the death blow of a fading form, musical homicide at the hands of disrespectful pretenders to the crown.

 

I am NOT putting FKJ in the same category as Bird and Trane. Just noting that this conversation takes place every time someone's personal definition of a changing form, comes face to face with that change.

I could just as easily have said "to those of use who grew up on the music of Bird, Miles, Trane, Armstrong, Whiteman and Goodman" to make my point. Substitute that for my original phrase. Of course there are always controversies within an art form when creative envelopes are stretched, but that's a different subject imo. My point was only v.a.v. the general public's understanding of what "jazz" is vs what more knowledgeable people might think.

 

I would disagree with anyone saying my somewhat negative opinion of FKJ is similar to a swing-era jazz fan's view on bebop. Bebop advanced jazz in radical directions, rhythmically and harmonically â it's easy to see how older musicians were baffled by it. Louis Armstrong hated it, called it "Chinese music." Is FKJ's use of loopers to create static repeating figures to â let's be real â noodle over, a major stylistic advance in jazz like bebop was over swing music? I would argue that it isn't. Of course I know that one person's "noodling" is another person's genius-level artistry. You can't really debate that â this is just how I feel.

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I listened to that nerdy puppet example and I suppose I am sorry I don't get it what people find so enjoyable about a band that's clearly dysfunctional, can't seem to get standard Funk grooves right, doesn't seem to do anything but keep certain curtains closed, and makes me only hope that at some moment those whatever 6 minutes are over and I can breath normally again.

 

Maybe the wrong starting point ideologically, or maybe the assumption people are to like and relax and dance with funky music is only shared by female singer in the example. maybe I'll never know.

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Is FKJ's use of loopers to create static repeating figures to â let's be real â noodle over, a major stylistic advance in jazz like bebop was over swing music? I would argue that it isn't. Of course I know that one person's "noodling" is another person's genius-level artistry. You can't really debate that â this is just how I feel.

 

Well, to be sure, I said I am NOT putting him in that same category. But as this thread makes clear, there obviously IS a movement toward more harmonically static noodle-core in jazz, and only time will tell if it is the next rock that sends the river into a new direction.

 

But the "things were so much better then" argument is like a Pavlovian bell for me, and even when I should probably shut my lowest face-hole, I can't help but weigh in. "Now" is always someone else's "Then," just as the "then" we're referring to, was the previous generation's disappointed smoke that culture as they knew it was "now" ending.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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I listened to that nerdy puppet example and I suppose I am sorry I don't get it what people find so enjoyable about a band that's clearly dysfunctional, can't seem to get standard Funk grooves right, doesn't seem to do anything but keep certain curtains closed, and makes me only hope that at some moment those whatever 6 minutes are over and I can breath normally again.

 

Maybe the wrong starting point ideologically, or maybe the assumption people are to like and relax and dance with funky music is only shared by female singer in the example. maybe I'll never know.

 

Theo, you have this confounding ability to bounce between utter jibberish and pure poetic brilliance, and this falls squarely the latter category. I love everything about this post.

Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material.
www.joshweinstein.com

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"Jazz" is almost a throwaway term now imo. To those of use who grew up on the music of Bird, Miles, and Trane it means one thing. To the general public, probably any kind of instrumental music that features improvisation that's not in the top 40 is automatically "jazz." I'm quite sure there are plenty of folk that would call both Knower and FKJ's music jazz.

 

If you're asking about which of the two acts â Knower or FKJ â is closer to jazz in the traditionally defined term (defined by those who, as I said, grew up learning about the history and studying the masters), my answer would be Knower. I'm biased because I have an opinion shaped from a lifetime of listening and learning from jazz musicians that span a very wide range of styles. What I hear in FKJ's music â not only the noodling piano video I posted at the top of this thread, but his usual electronic work â is someone technically proficient at operating loopers and computers, but whose music comes from an extremely limited harmonic palette. He relies on the "assistance" (as Buddy Rich once famously said!) to get over. Make no mistake, he's good at it. However, take away the computer, looper, etc. and what you get is the video that I started this thread with â noodleworld. As for Knower, although the example you posted seems to have zero actual improvisation, it shows one of the fundamental aspects of what I consider good jazz: imagination fused with raw talent. They use the "assistance" but they don't necessarily need the assistance! The example below comes to mind, which I think illustrates my point. This is most certainly jazz that's way closer to the tradition than anything I've heard from FKJ:

 

[video:youtube]

 

Well bloody hell, why didn't this example get shared to make the point rather than Time Traveler?

But isn't it Snarky Puppy's collaborator that makes this example what it is?

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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[Well bloody hell, why didn't this example get shared to make the point rather than Time Traveler?

But isn't it Snarky Puppy's collaborator that makes this example what it is?

Yea this is more of a Snarky Puppy (Nerdy Puppets? :) ) thing than a Knower track. I was just trying to show that Knower "knows" more than their usual electronica-inspired style.

 

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Is FKJ's use of loopers to create static repeating figures to â let's be real â noodle over, a major stylistic advance in jazz like bebop was over swing music? I would argue that it isn't. Of course I know that one person's "noodling" is another person's genius-level artistry. You can't really debate that â this is just how I feel.

 

Well, to be sure, I said I am NOT putting him in that same category. But as this thread makes clear, there obviously IS a movement toward more harmonically static noodle-core in jazz, and only time will tell if it is the next rock that sends the river into a new direction.

 

But the "things were so much better then" argument is like a Pavlovian bell for me, and even when I should probably shut my lowest face-hole, I can't help but weigh in. "Now" is always someone else's "Then," just as the "then" we're referring to, was the previous generation's disappointed smoke that culture as they knew it was "now" ending.

 

I don't think that direction is anything new. The jazz fusion movement in the 70's had those spearheading a new direction stylistically and others just noodling. This continued in the '80s and became known as smooth jazz. There was a marked difference between Weather Report and Spyrogyra even though they occupied the same genre and some overlap in fan base. Same could be said with comparing Chick Corea Electrik with the Yellow Jackets. Even with groups that didn't have some relation to the era before (Chick, Zawinul, Shorter) there were gems.

 

In the 80s, I loved what Bruford, coming out of the prog rock world, did with Earthworks. Musos like Metheny, Scofield, Holdsworth, etc. were attempting and in some aspects succeeding in advancing the idiom in a new direction. On the other side of the spectrum there was a ton of schlock marketed in the name of "jazz". By the mid '80s, If you turned on a "smooth jazz" station there was very little relation to what came before it. Heck, many people even refer to Sinatra style music as jazz, some of it swings and it is "standards" but not quite what I would refer to as jazz.

 

While I have no love for Wynton Marsalis' approach to all of this, he's been motivated to try and codify what "Jazz" is. I don't agree with it, probably because of my resentment with him discounting anything related to electric instruments.

 

As the point has been made, the general public will tend to consider any instrumental music or something done before the rock era as jazz even if it's noodling over Ableton. It's frustrating but it's not new. How many of us have experienced a conversation with a stranger when they find out you play.

 

"Oh what do you like to play?"

"Jazz"

"Oh, I really like artists XXXX and YYYY"

Then we think to ourselves how that's not jazz, then reply with.

"Those guys are ok but I like Bill Evans, Coltrane, etc"

"Oh, I never heard of them"

Mills Dude -- Lefty Hack
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Well bloody hell, why didn't this example get shared to make the point rather than Time Traveler?

But isn't it Snarky Puppy's collaborator that makes this example what it is?

 

Because I wanted to use an example that relied on the sample pad so it would be more apples to apples with the original post. Even from that example you can hear a much more sophisticated harmonic and rhythmic palette. There's plenty more proof out there. Here's a live version. Rai's synth solo is insane.

 

 

[video:youtube]

Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37

 

My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section

https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native

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Well bloody hell, why didn't this example get shared to make the point rather than Time Traveler?

But isn't it Snarky Puppy's collaborator that makes this example what it is?

 

Because I wanted to use an example that relied on the sample pad so it would be more apples to apples with the original post. Even from that example you can hear a much more sophisticated harmonic and rhythmic palette. There's plenty more proof out there. Here's a live version. Rai's synth solo is insane.

 

 

[video:youtube]

 

Thanks. I appreciate the effort to find the best example of what this group is about.

Yes, it"s very creative harmonically, rhythmically and it has elements of improvisation without loosing the dance beats and groove that make it feel good for an audience that pays no mind to things we pick up on.

 

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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He's no Monty Alexander.

 

[video:youtube]

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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I guess I'm gonna show a part of myself I usually avoid. I hesitated posting this because I'm not the type to dog any musician out there making what I presume is a sincere effort to present their best work. I have to admit to some cognitive dissonance when it comes to this however. A French electronic music artist named FKJ (for "French Kiwi Juice") is featured here in an official video by the Montreux Jazz Festival, playing a solo piano set. Of course we all know that these days, "jazz festival" can mean many other styles of music besides jazz â I totally get that, these events have to make a profit and let's face it, "pure" jazz won't do that. As far as I can tell though, what he's doing on this video is not EDM, funk, r&b, rock, etc... it's JAZZ â or it's supposed to be.

 

If anyone is gonna indulge me and check this out, I would ask you to first read some of the comments below this video before you listen to it. If you don't have time for that, let me throw out a few cut & pastes from them:

 

'He's just a musical god'

'Didn't know FKJ was such a talented jazz pianist'

'FKJ is a musical god that exceeds any expectation. Amazing taste, great blend of jazz, modern styles a swaggy beats'

'An absolute musical genius'

'One of the most beautiful pieces I've ever heard....EVERY transition is amazing'

'Eargasm'

'He is a true genius'

'beyond description in any language'

'Talent aside, what impresses me more is that he played straight fire for 20 minutes straight'

'Piano CHOPS! I had no idea. Absolutely floored'

 

Since this is the official Montreux Jazz Festival video channel, I have to admit I was expecting something different from what I heard. Am I the only one? Listen if you dare. I won't blame you if you don't sit through the entire 20 minute set â I didn't â but scanning through & listening at various points, you'll get the idea.

 

I guess what I'm saying is this: anyone can record him or herself playing whatever they want, post it to youtube and claim it's jazz or whatever term they care to use. There's a lot of great music on the tubes, and some not-so-great, imo of course; that's the nature of the beast and I understand that. And as I said, I presume we're all doing our best â otherwise why post? However, for this person to sincerely present himself playing what I'm hearing, and have it be an official Montreux Jazz Festival video, well call me cranky but I am pretty disappointed at where the bar is these days. I'm curious if any other jazz player on this board agrees with me or am I being a dick? I'll stop here because there's a part of me that wants to go Pat Metheny/Kenny G on this but I don't have the cred. What I do have is an at-least-semi-informed opinion and I guess I just put it out there. After seeing this, I couldn't help myself.

 

[EDIT - OK I searched and found a few references to FKJ on this board. I sincerely don't want to offend anybody that thinks highly of him. I checked out a few of his videos where he does his looping stuff. He's a talented guy â plays bass, guitar, keys, sax and maybe more. That kind of music doesn't move me too much but I recognize the talent involved in putting it out there. My little diatribe above is more specifically about his SOLO JAZZ PIANO performance in the video I linked to â that's it! ]

 

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/QTACugN67yc

 

Reminds me of new age music, ie; George Winston, except not very good.

 

 

Casio PX5s, XWP1 and CPS SSV3
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George Winston and Kenny G are great compared to the guy, imo.

 

Kenny G solos at 2:54

 

[video:youtube]

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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My teenage muso friends and I were huge fans of Jeff Lorber Fusion when it first came out. It hasn't aged very well, but I think you have to acknowledge that at the time it sounded fresh and new. Within a few years it was but a drop in an ocean of smooth jazz.

Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

Home: Vintage Vibe 64

 

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