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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: zephonic] #3007031 09/07/19 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by zephonic
A dude from Germany on Gearslutz says he tried the new Fantoms at the store and the synth actions are noisy but the 88 is fine.

It looks like that guy was not exaggerating, just check out this clip from Thomann and listen for a minute or so from the 4:50 mark.
The mic picks up the sound of the keybed, and you really have to crank up the volume of the Fantom in order to drown out the noise of the keybed.

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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: Morizzle] #3007033 09/07/19 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by stoken6
Originally Posted by Morizzle
It'll be interesting to see if the Fantom technology trickles down to some form of FA 06 successor.
Highly likely, and probably without the premium action, aftertouch and internal PSU. Might even lose the MIDI sockets, the way things are going.

Yeah, in this case, I'm not really wishing for a scaled down version, because as much as I'd be theoretically interested if there were a lightweight derivative, I think they would almost certainly end up taking away all the stuff I care about. I could live with a Jupiter 50 action (the last good feeling action they had in a lightweight board), and I'm fine without metal chassis, XLR outs, internal power supply, and some of the other high end attributes... but I suspect many of the best things about this (to me) would disappear, since so much of the appeal of this to me is its control surface (the full battery of panel controls including dedicated synth controls, and endless encoders and sliders with LEDs), and also the full patch remain, aftertouch, maybe the V-Piano.... all stuff I could easily envision hitting the chopping block. I guess I'd go the opposite way of what is typically done... take out most or all of the sounds, put in in a light chassis (still with a quality action), and market it mostly as a high end DAW+MIDI controller. THAT would interest me!

Originally Posted by zephonic
I totally understand that the new Fantom isn't necessarily all that impressive if you haven't been longing for one the way I have.

Yeah... not for me, but it's nice to see something new coming out for folks like you and EscapeRocks. So many of us really go for just the lightweight stuff, but there's still a market for top quality too, and yeah, Roland's been missed in that category for a while. I hope they do well with it (and the Jupiter).

Originally Posted by zephonic
But the lack of connection I have had with my keyboards over the last few years hasn't been worth the money I saved.

I've also been moving lately back to "connection" even at the expense of sounds/features. (Can't get it all at an acceptable travel weight for me, regardless of cost.) Today my travel 88 is again my old reliable Casio PX-500L circa 2005, because despite its limitations, I just love playing it. (But I'm still looking forward to the potential of the PC4... what can I see, I'm an addict.)

Originally Posted by Morizzle
I was really struggling with synths (I had like three different versions of the Nord Lead that I sold cause I couldn't connect with it)

Did you ever try the Nord Lead 3? That's the magic one for me, because of the endless encoders and LED rings. Nothing else with presets can give you that immediacy, of every knob always being "right."

Originally Posted by Morizzle
interactive screens that show what you are actually doing with waveforms, LFOs and other stuff are really motivating for me! I hope we see lots more of these in the near future!

Have you checked out the thread on the Hydrasynth?


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: Fleer] #3007039 09/07/19 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Fleer
Since I’m a bottoms man, anyone know what’s underneath this fine machine? MDF hardboard like the Montage or metal?


I didn't look last night at GC.. I will today. However, given the weight, and if it's like the previous Fantoms, it will be metal


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: zephonic] #3007041 09/07/19 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by zephonic
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand that the new Fantom isn't necessarily all that impressive if you haven't been longing for one the way I have.

It just has the features I've been missing since I retired my Fantom X7 from gigging three years ago. A nice 76-key action with aftertouch and my preferred pitch/mod stick. Would I rather have it cheaper? Sure. But the lack of connection I have had with my keyboards over the last few years hasn't been worth the money I saved.

So I'm willing to take a hit if it brings a little more enjoyment to my gigs.
If you mean this came totally out of the blue, then yes. I had absolutely no idea they were gonna come back, thought they were done with the high-end market.


like

Thank you for articulating my thoughts. I don't have to type so much now smile


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007068 09/07/19 08:04 PM
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Reading the manual, I’m having a hard time understanding how the keyboard can be split. In the “Zone” section, the manual says:

“This is a container for playing a tone. To play a tone, you assign it to a zone. For each zone, you can specify whether it is connected to the keyboard, and make settings such as its key range, volume, pan, and controller reception. There are 16 zones; by combining zones you can create sounds that consist of multiple tones, or create foundational performance (sound) settings for each song. You can also use specific zones to control an external sound module (EXT ZONE) instead of the internal sound engine.”

However, in the “Performing” section of the manual, only one assignable split point is referenced:

Dividing the Keyboard into Two Regions (Split)
1. Press the [SPLIT] button to make it light.
The high region plays the zone 1 tone, and the low region plays the zone 4 tone.
2. To cancel split, press the [SPLIT] button to make it go dark. When you cancel split, the high and low regions (KEY RANGE) are reset, and return to the layer state.

There has to be a way to achieve more than one split point on an axe of this caliber, right? Anyone here fluent in Roland-speak?


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007071 09/07/19 08:27 PM
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This is a guess of course as not touched the board but I imagine the split button is for making a quick two zone split in a live performance situation. Back in the day the XV88 has a one touch piano button for configuring the keyboard in a piano mode for live playing. I guess it’s something like this.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007072 09/07/19 08:27 PM
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My Roland vocab dates back to the days when they simply had patches, performances and parts. It used to be Tone<Patch<Performance, but with the introduction of the Jupiter 80 that changed where a Patch was suddenly a Liveset, and a Performance became a Registration.

It looks like the Zone is a hybrid of what used to be a Patch/Liveset and Performance/Registration, while a Scene is like a supra-Registration.

Maybe they change it up every generation just to keep us on our toes.

My guess is your basic building block for splits is the Zone/Scene, but I suppose they added Regions for quick splits á la Nord.

I could be wrong, though.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: SteveUK] #3007075 09/07/19 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveUK
This is a guess of course as not touched the board but I imagine the split button is for making a quick two zone split in a live performance situation. Back in the day the XV88 has a one touch piano button for configuring the keyboard in a piano mode for live playing. I guess it’s something like this.



This, Im sure. Korg did the same thing, a quick button to make a basic split/layer, while the more advanced stuff was still available deeper in the menus/structure.

Jerry

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007085 09/07/19 09:18 PM
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Surely ..... each zone can specify a key range creating bunches of split points. The ‘split’ function is just a quick split button.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007089 09/07/19 09:48 PM
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Sounds similar to the FA08 - Split button gives you two parts; if you want more than that you create a Studio Set for up to 16 parts.

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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007090 09/07/19 09:51 PM
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Manual is not much help for what I need to know about File Management and sample implementation.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: zephonic] #3007092 09/07/19 10:07 PM
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Thanks for the input on the split function, good to know!
Originally Posted by zephonic
It looks like the Zone is a hybrid of what used to be a Patch/Liveset and Performance/Registration, while a Scene is like a supra-Registration.
In terms of Korg Kronos equivalents, it seems that a Scene is analogous to a Setlist slot, a Zone is like a Combi, and a Tone is like a Patch.

Specs say the machine has “Over 3500 Tones.” I wonder how many Scenes and Zones are available?

Found it: “128 Scenes x 4 Bank”

Presumably each Scene can hold up to 16 Zones.

Last edited by Moonglow; 09/08/19 01:51 AM.

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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007104 09/08/19 01:40 AM
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FYI, FWIW.... Scott Berry from Roland just told the sampler is completely separate from everything else so I can load sampler banks and have them be static while I change scenes. To have to assign samples for every scene would have been a lot more work.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007112 09/08/19 05:19 AM
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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: CEB] #3007116 09/08/19 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CEB
Manual is not much help for what I need to know about File Management and sample implementation.


No progress here from Roland. File management consists of two instructions: backup and restore. That's it. Backup saves all, restore loads all. For some reason it's still all or nothing. That means, no possibility to load individual patches or banks from other users or third parties.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: mojkarma] #3007124 09/08/19 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mojkarma
Backup saves all, restore loads all. For some reason it's still all or nothing. That means, no possibility to load individual patches or banks from other users or third parties.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: EscapeRocks] #3007129 09/08/19 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by EscapeRocks
Originally Posted by Fleer
Since I’m a bottoms man, anyone know what’s underneath this fine machine? MDF hardboard like the Montage or metal?


I didn't look last night at GC.. I will today. However, given the weight, and if it's like the previous Fantoms, it will be metal

Thanks, looking forward to your hands on report.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: jerrythek] #3007138 09/08/19 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jerrythek
This, Im sure. Korg did the same thing, a quick button to make a basic split/layer, while the more advanced stuff was still available deeper in the menus/structure.
Roland's Juno DS is the same way.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007145 09/08/19 04:01 PM
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I wonder if Korg will counter with something in 2020? I am tempted to get a Kronos but feel as soon as I would get one they would upgrade.
I use the Krome but more for writing and as an interface into my computer.

Roland mentions this will interface with DAW's? How so, will it allow one to start/stop the DAW througn the roland itself?

I'm looking for better workflow. It just feels so unnatural having the keyboard connected right next to the PC - I do like the vst's, being able to change effects and mastering.
Does anyone have any suggestions in the meantime?

I'm trying to figure out what is driving this Fantom to a Kronos price.

Although the Juno Gi I had for several years did not have great sounds, it had a built in 8 track digital recorder with 4 sliders, preamps and various effects and I could do a simple master on it.

Although my current setup with the VST's and Steinberg interface (better preamps) yields better sounds, it is sometimes tedious.


Therefore, its a little hard for me to get totally excited about the Fantom when essentially I still need a computer- perhaps one can export tracks into a DAW as that would be beneficial.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: LarsHarner] #3007148 09/08/19 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LarsHarner


Roland mentions this will interface with DAW's? How so, will it allow one to start/stop the DAW througn the roland itself?



There are some pretty good videos on YouTube. One of them demonstrates the control, of Logic if I remember correctly.

Last edited by wd8dky; 09/08/19 05:30 PM.
Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: wd8dky] #3007153 09/08/19 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by wd8dky
Originally Posted by LarsHarner


Roland mentions this will interface with DAW's? How so, will it allow one to start/stop the DAW througn the roland itself?



There are some pretty good videos on YouTube. One of them demonstrates the control, of Logic if I remember correctly.


Thanks- I'll look for it. Currently I am using Mixcraft and can use my tablet next to the keyboard to control stop/start and some other minor things but am looking from something more seamless and this ROland sounds like it has some possibilities

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: LarsHarner] #3007154 09/08/19 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LarsHarner
I wonder if Korg will counter with something in 2020? I am tempted to get a Kronos but feel as soon as I would get one they would upgrade.
I use the Krome but more for writing and as an interface into my computer.

Roland mentions this will interface with DAW's? How so, will it allow one to start/stop the DAW througn the roland itself?

I'm looking for better workflow. It just feels so unnatural having the keyboard connected right next to the PC - I do like the vst's, being able to change effects and mastering.
Does anyone have any suggestions in the meantime?

I'm trying to figure out what is driving this Fantom to a Kronos price.

Although the Juno Gi I had for several years did not have great sounds, it had a built in 8 track digital recorder with 4 sliders, preamps and various effects and I could do a simple master on it.

Although my current setup with the VST's and Steinberg interface (better preamps) yields better sounds, it is sometimes tedious.


Therefore, its a little hard for me to get totally excited about the Fantom when essentially I still need a computer- perhaps one can export tracks into a DAW as that would be beneficial.


We are kicking this around on the Korg forum- news and Kronos sub forums

It takes some time to study the Roland videos- which are impressive. The Scott Tibbs youTubes are must watches
to get some Fantom knowledge.

I think Kronos and Fantom are mostly different beasts.

More differences than similarities. Most definitely different development direction

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007157 09/08/19 08:09 PM
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Roland hasn't priced their boards like this in a long time, must be more under the hood yet to be revealed,


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: GregC] #3007160 09/08/19 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LarsHarner
Roland mentions this will interface with DAW's? How so, will it allow one to start/stop the DAW througn the roland itself?

Start/stop just requires transport controls, which even the DS and FA have. This does much more. Check out this video starting at about 21 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYQKUdIayg

(I was going to include the video, but for some reason it came in giant-sized.)

Originally Posted by LarsHarner
I'm trying to figure out what is driving this Fantom to a Kronos price.

I'd at least say the control surface is way better than the Kronos, with the endless encoders, LED indicators, dedicated synth controls.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007165 09/08/19 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by LarsHarner
Roland mentions this will interface with DAW's? How so, will it allow one to start/stop the DAW througn the roland itself?

Start/stop just requires transport controls, which even the DS and FA have. This does much more. Check out this video starting at about 21 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELYQKUdIayg

(I was going to include the video, but for some reason it came in giant-sized.)

Originally Posted by LarsHarner
I'm trying to figure out what is driving this Fantom to a Kronos price.

I'd at least say the control surface is way better than the Kronos, with the endless encoders, LED indicators, dedicated synth controls.


There is a certain pie chart to be found any time a new flagship or flagship-ette appears, especially in an increasingly DAW-equipped world. I think the smallest group is really the one that still prefers onboard sequencers, despite the subjective hassle of bending over even a generous display. The next is clearly growing the fastest, where instruments are increasingly CV- and DAW-ready without possessing much more than a step-sequencer as hardware. The third is the lightly insane who will like this Fantom as a major controller and use its generous Out jacks to build a synth pipe-organ. Everything you get onboard plus the means to talk to modulars and tabletops is a big draw. Last, a few brave souls who are drawn to Nords, but also like the form factor and the Roland sound. The drawbars seem to be done right and it has a bit of SN piano DNA, so its likely to become the go-to for a few big-handed players who like it all in one box. I'm curious about how capable the synth section is, but I don't expect Serum in a box. Still TBD.


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007168 09/08/19 09:40 PM
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Fantom is a much different beast than Montage or Kronos.

I understand many see this as a battle of " who gets my $4000 ? "

For the next 3-6 months, the $4000 price will not discourage. Here is why.
Or my prediction.

The price will not be a problem for the music studios and early adopters.

Simply, there are many folks that have the cash and credit and have no problem with $4000 on an interesting new w/s.

Then, we will see name performers with the Fantom.

In 6 months or less , there will be a bunch of " Oh. OIC now ".

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: David Emm] #3007169 09/08/19 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by David Emm
The drawbars seem to be done right and it has a bit of SN piano DNA, so its likely to become the go-to for a few big-handed players who like it all in one box. I'm curious about how capable the synth section is, but I don't expect Serum in a box. Still TBD.

I'm curious about the drawbar implementation. There are only 8 standard sliders, and a ninth appears to be for USB audio. Maybe that also functions as a 9th drawbar?


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Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: gino] #3007173 09/08/19 09:53 PM
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Scene = 16 zone(part) multi, layered/split/multichannel, whatever. Also contains patterns/groups/song. No samples or sample kits stored here. Scenes are also used as Menus of single instrument variations.

Zone = 1 part in a Scene containing 1 Tone and settings for key range/channel/level etc, or external MIDI device

Tone = A Zen-Core(PCM+VA), V-piano(zone 1 only) or drumkit patch.

Zen-Core Tones are 4 Partial(osc with independent synthesis path), and partial osc can be VA or PCM. There are alternate patch structures with pairs of osc intermodulated (Sync/Ring/Xmod). One MFX is stored with the Tone, but there are up to 4-stage effects algorithms.

There has been this “mode-less concept” hype, but there is in fact a Single Tone button that takes you to V-Piano initially, but doing so wipes out your Scene edit buffer.

The only Setlist equivalent is the Scene Chain function, but it is pretty minimal, just an adjustable order of scenes. You can also set combinations of zones within a Scene and select them from the pads.

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: AnotherScott] #3007195 09/08/19 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
Originally Posted by David Emm
The drawbars seem to be done right and it has a bit of SN piano DNA, so its likely to become the go-to for a few big-handed players who like it all in one box. I'm curious about how capable the synth section is, but I don't expect Serum in a box. Still TBD.

I'm curious about the drawbar implementation. There are only 8 standard sliders, and a ninth appears to be for USB audio. Maybe that also functions as a 9th drawbar?


I find this curious. Noting that some keyboard musicians are going thru their " does it tick all the boxes " process

Do you really believe Fantom is going to handle your cover band responsibilities ?

Re: New Roland Fantom [Re: GregC] #3007204 09/09/19 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by GregC
Do you really believe Fantom is going to handle your cover band responsibilities ?


Personally, no... because (a) it's over my weight limit, and (b) I'm generally a multi-board guy and not likely to need a single do-everything board. But it seems a lot of people do look for an all-in-one, and the Fantom potentially looks about as capable as anything else out there for filling that role.

There aren't too many boards out there with sliders you could dedicate for organ while also giving you simultaneous access to a set of dedicated knobby synth functions. Nord Stage 3 is the only one I can think of, so if there is 9-drawbar support here, it could compete there. Some others come close. Kronos gives you 9 sliders you could use for organ and 8 knobs you could define for synth, but that synth control is not as good as Fantom's, and then leaves you no more for effects. The forthcoming Kurzweil PC4 looks similar.
Roland VR09/730, Numa Compact 2X, and Vox Continental don't give the controls to you simultaneously, but they do automatically repurpose at least some of the 9 drawbar controls to functions as common synth controls, that's something, and they have some separate dedicated effects controls. But if the organ support is there, Fantom looks like the closest NS3 competitor, with a lot more functionality, but at much higher weight. One place Nord still has an edge is in the battery of dedicated effects controls. On the Roland, it looks like you'd have to program some other knob assignment to do that... but there are enough knobs that it looks like you could do a decent job at it, since all those knobs above the sliders don't have to do synth functions. Plus the controls have the LEDs. And Roland also has the trigger pads that Nord doesn't have.

So I'd turn the question around... *IF* you wanted to handle your cover band responsibilities with one board (as many people do), is there any reason you think the Fantom is NOT likely to be a good choice for that? And which other boards would be better suited for that? Functionally, if it were lighter, I could easily see the Fantom being my choice, if that were my goal.


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