Legatoboy Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Many of us understand where this player is at...this is not my word and I don't really use it but the guy I study with does and has to describe certain types of playing in me and others when needed for lesson purposes... He would say he sounds like a 'Nebbish' , did I spell it right (2 b's), it's Yiddish ... I can see how some folks would listen to this and get something from it, hey music is an art and it's in the ears of the beholder... But I was more inclined to Dave's response... I lasted about 2 min..not a lot of Harmonic development going on and the sameness of it made me bail after about 2 min in! He did perform well though, was getting around the piano and was getting some sort of sound but I would not say he every 'dug in' to any of it and it's not really jazz... doesn't really get behind any of his notes, I think that would throw off his stasis which sort of keeps him buoyant and upright through it and keeps it moving forward or meandering forward might be a better term but he does keep it going! 'Nebbish' by the numbers: I don't know if he is all this but anyway, here is the Def. : nebbish DEFINITIONS noun: nerdy, clumsy, awkward person. "An innocuous, ineffectual, weak, helpless, or hapless unfortunate" (Rosten) EXAMPLE SENTENCES "Of course if she's really fallen for that nebbish, she won't listen to a thing you say." (Marge Piercy, Braided Lives) "In that fancy restaurant, they gave him the table next to the bathroom and he didn't say anything. That nebbish!" (JPS, p. 110) LANGUAGES OF ORIGIN Yiddish REGIONS North America Quote CP-50, YC 73, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountFosco Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 This kind of s***t gets me tight. It just shows how far standards have dropped that FKJ is marketed as 'jazz'. To play a particular genre of music ... Yeah maybe, but the only person who marketed that as Jazz, or categorised the style of music, was the OP. That got chinese whispered up to But featuring "jazz-ish" on the main stage at Montreaux makes me shake my head. The Montreux Jazz Festival posted the OP's vid on their channel with their logo. They also posted this video: with the same amount of the word "jazz" written all over it. The mentioned artists, in order: Janet Jackson, Elton John, Sting, Lauryn Hill, Thom Yorke. I'm sure, by aiming the indignant "you call that jazz?" hysteria at a young upcoming artist, rather than Sting, you weren't trying to come across as envious and resentful, but you know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strays Dave Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Watching some of the Montreux promo videos on YouTube I see some people like George Thorogood and Ian Anderson (doing his Jethro Tull thing). Also I heard snatches of what sounded to my ears like contemporary pop and EDM(ish) music. In my opinion, if someone's only been exposed to contemporary pop and EDM, this FKJ guy sounds really hip. And he's actually a talented player, but seems to have a harmonic palette of pretty much triadic harmony ( 3 note chords). The accepted harmonic language of "jazz" has developed way past this. The comprehension of FKJ's fan base hears sophisticated harmony because if they're EDM fans they're probably accustomed to hearing 4 chords repeated over and over. But a question: what is jazz ? An impossible question to answer probably. At it's core, it's supposed to be improvised music I believe. FKJ is improvising. He has a simple harmonic language when compared to dozens of classic jazz pianists. But he seems to be improvising. There are young giants (Corey Henry and Jacob Collier were mentioned earlier) on the scene. I think FKJ's audience might reject them, saying they're too complicated to enjoy. Quote Dave's YouTube channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 The question is not "what is jazz?" The question is "what is music?" The only way his playing makes any sense is if you listen to it in 3-second bytes, and then only because your musical brain is supplying what it imagines should come before and after to make it coherent. But listened to in longer time frames, there is no coherency whatsoever. It's just a string of unrelated riffs, and it's not even clear that the right hand is related to the left hand except by occasional coincidence. His facial expressions strongly suggest that HE thinks he is making music, though even that is somewhat of a leap. For instance, he may just be remembering a very emotional event in his life at the same time that his hands are doing whatever they're doing on the keyboard. We don't know. We've all had the experience of stumbling on a street performer playing something absolutely brilliant while crowds of people pass by too busy to notice. To me, this video is the inverse phenomenon. Here is someone playing absolute dreck, but because it's in a youtube video sponsored by a famous festival name, and because the artist is well known, thousands of people watch every moment and debate its merits. We're supposed to believe the internet is making the world a better place, but it's things like this that make me feel like we've signed the devil's bargain. All of these posts are of course just killing time until Sven weighs in . . . . Quote Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 I hardly think a festival with Sting, Janet Jackson, Tom Jones and the Chemical Brothers on the lineup needs to rely on this guy to get hits on their YT channel Actually, yes, videos of FKJ, Tom Misch, Masego, and their peers might very well score better than those... *ahem* old people. See my point about the YouTube video suggestion algorithm. Though I wouldn't call the video jazz, I have no problem with Montreux programming him the way they seemingly did. I just hope he only played the twenty minutes! Quote Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 (A long one, sorry!!) I guess I should clarify my stance on this because I'm getting a message from some of these posts that because Montreux Jazz Fest features a lot of non-jazz artists, this means we should give FKJ a pass if his solo piano performance doesn't measure up to what a traditional "jazz piano" performance from someone worthy enough to be invited to perform there is capable of. To paraphrase: "Montreux now features all this shitty pop music which has nothing to do with jazz, so why drag the guy? His music is right in line with that." Maybe I'm simplifying or exaggerating a little but that's what I'm reading. I subscribe to Duke Ellington's view: "There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind." I don't care if it's rock 'n roll, blues, or Indian ragas at a "jazz festival" â calling it a "jazz festival" and booking other kinds of music has been going on a long time. It's just a descriptor â I'm the last to get bent out of shape over it. There's a good reason: I tour with a funk band that plays jazz clubs and jazz festivals! Those are some of our most enjoyable gigs, especially the clubs, because we're often booked for two to five nights in a row, so we get to stay in one location for a while. I wonder what some of the "real" jazz players say about us! Anyway, I would be fine with seeing any good funk, r&b, or pop band at a festival, no matter what the festival is called. I like a lot of that stuff, and good musicianship is something I value no matter the genre that's being performed. By "good musicianship" I don't necessarily mean monster chops or using extended harmonies. I like folks that show us something a little different while maintaining a connection to what's come before â a baseline we can identify with and use as a framework to be able to appreciate where the artist is taking us. In that regard, each person's "baseline" can be different. It relates to one's experiences, likes & dislikes, musical education, etc. I think the jazz players here are in the minority but for those of us who've spent our lives learning and playing this music, the Montreux video touched a nerve in a way that other forumites may not understand. I believe Pat Metheny said it best in his Kenny G rant, from which I'm gonna quote right below this paragraph. Plug in "FKJ" and "piano" when Pat is talking about Kenny and saxophone. Also, I understand that Pat is referring to Kenny playing in a group context while the video I'm talking about is a solo performance â but I think the main point he's making applies here: ...it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may. And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential. As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well. I hope you see my point as it applies to FKJ. You get on a stage and improvise on a piano â no "songs", no vocals, just laying down chords and blowing over them, then have hundreds of people comment about how great a jazz player you are, and are featured on the Montreux Jazz Festival video channel, well damn straight I'm gonna evaluate this as jazz and I'm going to compare it to my baseline. That's really what this is about to me (and, I think, a few other people on this thread, thank you!). Again, if this was a random dude in his living room posting on his own youtube channel... great! It's obvious he has keyboard skills and is talented, and his main focus â loop-based music â is something he does well. I'm not taking anything away from him there. It's only this video along with its fawning commenters that got me a little riled up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 First time on youtube? The comments are hilariously clueless. It's like they were all written by a class of 6th-grade detention students trying to blame their comments on a different class of 4th-grade detention students. I once saw a clip of a funeral procession that was DOWNVOTED. That dweeb is not calling himself jazz (nor does Kenny G by the way). He's not even calling himself good. He's just noodling and happy to show that he's got better chops than people would expect, and better ones than he needs for his day job of filtering beats. If it were a local policeman, we'd be like, "Well, he's obviously not a pro, but dude's got some chops." That's all. The "what is jazz" thing is a red herring. In the muggle world people just use that term to describe any soloistic live music that isn't pop or classical; it's not weighted with any great meaning or significance. I have played entire nights of funk and soul in live bands and had people say, "I really liked this and I don't usually like jazz." It's not worth getting worked up about. There are kitten videos far more worthy of this attention than this flame-out sideshow, IMO. Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 -YouTube comments, or any online comment section, are generally to be avoided for one's sanity. Quoting myself because I can. Quote Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 -YouTube comments, or any online comment section, are generally to be avoided for one's sanity. Quoting myself because I can. Eww, get a room! Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 Of course the commenters are clueless. It was the pairing of the comments with the music, along with being on the official MJF video channel, that did it for me. What a trifecta! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 All of these posts are of course just killing time until Sven weighs in . . . . If I'm honest, I'm not certain I know why I was bestowed the honorific of being in the title of this particular thread, so.... not sure I have anything to add that CountFosco hasn't already stated (ie. the decades-old trend of featuring decidedly "non-jazz" artists on the stage at Montreaux); I'm unfamiliar with the subject of the OP, and based on the tiresome armchair quarterbacking in this thread, I have very little desire to expend any effort to change that.... so.... As you were, I suppose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polychrest Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 . . .If it were a local policeman, we'd be like, "Well, he's obviously not a pro, but dude's got some chops." That's all. If it were a cop, somebody would find something stupid to say about whether he hits the black keys harder than the white ones. It is the internet, after all. Quote “For 50 years, it was like being chained to a lunatic.” -- Kingsley Amis on the eventual loss of his libido Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 He"s waiting for Yamaha to fix the black key response in a firmware update. Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (A long one, sorry!!) I hope you see my point as it applies to FKJ. Sorry, but I don't. FKJ didn't do anything except play piano some very nonsensical piano for 20 minutes. It was people other than who decided to frame it as "jazz." Your "jazz" dispute is with those other people, most of whom are just expressing themselves in YouTube comments, which I think we can all agree is about the lowest common denominator of written expression available today. But I'm glad you started this thread. It's grist a useful contemplation on the importance of making your lodestar something other than the number of views. Quote Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 All of these posts are of course just killing time until Sven weighs in . . . . If I'm honest, I'm not certain I know why I was bestowed the honorific of being in the title of this particular thread, Just a little tongue-in-cheek attempt at humor, seeing as you aren't known for holding back your opinions and telling it like it is. If this is an honor you'd rather not be bestowed with (ever, or just this particular instance), I'm happy to edit the title of the thread (if I still can!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkost2002 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 But a question: what is jazz ? An impossible question to answer probably. At it's core, it's supposed to be improvised music I believe. FKJ is improvising. He has a simple harmonic language when compared to dozens of classic jazz pianists. But he seems to be improvising. Nope. Sorry. If all there was to Jazz was Improvisation, then Mozart cadenzas and the free notated preludes of the French Clavecinists would be jazz. Jazz, for the record is an African-American folkloric music based in blues, gospel and American dance and song forms. A fusion of African rhythmic sensibility and European harmony. Quote "I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.� Robert Bosch, 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 (A long one, sorry!!) I hope you see my point as it applies to FKJ. Sorry, but I don't. FKJ didn't do anything except play piano some very nonsensical piano for 20 minutes. It was people other than who decided to frame it as "jazz." Your "jazz" dispute is with those other people, most of whom are just expressing themselves in YouTube comments, which I think we can all agree is about the lowest common denominator of written expression available today. I'll try to restate my main point with a few less words. One of the oldest and most well-known music festivals in the world promoted a video of what sounds like "the 'jazz piano' equivalent of the acoustic guitar douche playing in the quad at college" (not my quote but I had to steal it!). The commenters also don't matter â they're just the icing on the cake. It's not the apocalypse, it's just sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkost2002 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (A long one, sorry!!) I hope you see my point as it applies to FKJ. Sorry, but I don't. FKJ didn't do anything except play piano some very nonsensical piano for 20 minutes. It was people other than who decided to frame it as "jazz." Your "jazz" dispute is with those other people, most of whom are just expressing themselves in YouTube comments, which I think we can all agree is about the lowest common denominator of written expression available today. I'll try to restate my main point with a few less words. One of the oldest and most well-known music festivals in the world promoted a video of what sounds like "the 'jazz piano' equivalent of the acoustic guitar douche playing in the quad at college" (not my quote but I had to steal it!). The commenters also don't matter â they're just the icing on the cake. It's not the apocalypse, it's just sad. What Reezekeys said! Quote "I have constantly tried to deliver only products which withstand the closest scrutiny � products which prove themselves superior in every respect.� Robert Bosch, 1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adan Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (A long one, sorry!!) I hope you see my point as it applies to FKJ. Sorry, but I don't. FKJ didn't do anything except play piano some very nonsensical piano for 20 minutes. It was people other than who decided to frame it as "jazz." Your "jazz" dispute is with those other people, most of whom are just expressing themselves in YouTube comments, which I think we can all agree is about the lowest common denominator of written expression available today. I'll try to restate my main point with a few less words. One of the oldest and most well-known music festivals in the world promoted a video of what sounds like "the 'jazz piano' equivalent of the acoustic guitar douche playing in the quad at college" (not my quote but I had to steal it!). The commenters also don't matter â they're just the icing on the cake. It's not the apocalypse, it's just sad. I share you feelings of dismay about this, I just didn't think your analogy to Kenny G was apt. What pushed Methany over the line regarding KG was the Armstrong overdub, which undeniably invites people to compare him to a jazz legend. FKJ did nothing remotely similar to that. Someone at the Montreaux organization made a decision to post this video under the Montreaux name. I agree that was a unfortunate decision, but it's on par with many similar promotional decisions. But you can't blame FKJ for it, or claim that he was holding himself out as a jazz musician. Quote Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro Home: Vintage Vibe 64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 I share you feelings of dismay about this, I just didn't think your analogy to Kenny G was apt. What pushed Methany over the line regarding KG was the Armstrong overdub, which undeniably invites people to compare him to a jazz legend. FKJ did nothing remotely similar to that. Someone at the Montreaux organization made a decision to post this video under the Montreaux name. I agree that was a unfortunate decision, but it's on par with many similar promotional decisions. But you can't blame FKJ for it, or claim that he was holding himself out as a jazz musician. Yes it was the duet with Pops that pushed Metheny over the edge, but I was referring only to the point he made in the excerpt I pulled from his longer screed: if someone is improvising in a way to cause most people to consider it jazz (or employ elements commonly associated with jazz improvisation), we should judge it as such and, as Pat says, "let the chips fall where they may." IMO, giving it the imprimateur of a famous music festival, whether FKJ wanted that or not, reinforces my point. He may be entirely innocent in all this â after all, he's just "doing his thing" so I agree with you about the "blame" aspect. If anything, this reflects poorly on the Montreux Festival, not FKJ! I almost feel bad for the guy. When he's on stage with his keyboards, bass, sax, guitars, pad controllers & loopers, he's in his element and demonstrating something unique that sets him apart and, presumably, gets him gigs! However, when you're on a stage by yourself playing solo acoustic piano, wittingly or not you're a part of a longstanding and more traditional lineage of artistry that involves a lot of other musicians â and there's just no way you're not gonna get compared to others by anybody familiar with that lineage. Obviously, "anybody familiar" does not include his fans posting comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
16251 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 For the brave of heart. It is truly fascinating, to me, the number of people digging this. :facepalm: [video:youtube] Quote AvantGrand N2 | ES520 | Gallien-Krueger MK & MP | https://soundcloud.com/pete36251 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Here's another guy using a looper. [video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynnYLXW3Fo Quote .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 [video:youtube] Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
16251 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 I came upon this article just now. This saxophonist was accused by a fan that he wasn't playing jazz at festival and fan called the cops. Seemed relevant... Quote AvantGrand N2 | ES520 | Gallien-Krueger MK & MP | https://soundcloud.com/pete36251 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 I came upon this article just now. This saxophonist was accused by a fan that he wasn't playing jazz at festival and fan called the cops. Seemed relevant... Hahahahaha! That"s the best thing I"ve read this week. Thanks for that. Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 For all those here bagging this guy out, well, post some examples of YOUR playing....pure solo stuff. I for one would be keen to compare the "great" players here and their chops with this guy. I bet there would be plenty of great playing. Also, most of us are not on Montreaux's Youtube Channel. Quote Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountFosco Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 For the brave of heart. It is truly fascinating, to me, the number of people digging this. :facepalm: [video:youtube] What's not to dig? He's just doin his thing man. If people are into it, all power to him. Sometime in the future, when FKJ has had as much live experience as Thomas Dolby, a KCer will use a video of him as "old people are better exhibit A". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJUSCULE Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Oh lol I definitely prefer FKJ to Thomas Dolby. That's not even close. Quote Eric Website Gear page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 I posted Dolby to contemplate if FKJ"s thing is more like Dolby than Wooton. Not better or worse. FKJ is jazzish but his loop based production as an act reminds me more of electronic music. Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strays Dave Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Along the lines of FKJ (FJK?). I suspect many Prince devotees would say this shows that Prince was some sort of musical genius. [video:youtube] Quote Dave's YouTube channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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